Heads up for plan fudgers in 2007

[bicker]

The main problem I always had with it was forcing everyone in the room to be on a meal plan, then the only choice for children is processed, high fat, high sodium junk.

And indeed, folks who feel that way are well-served by not getting the Dining Plan. By the same token, I think in many cases Disney will allow you to treat your young child as an older child, and will charge you full price for admission and the Dining Plan. If your concerns about what your young child eats are very significant, then you have that option, and shouldn't have a problem paying what extra amount it would cost.

Alternatively, you can just look at the cost of the young child Dining Plan as a total loss, and evaluate the Dining Plan based on having these useless credits, and paying in cash for everything you get for your young child. Even figuring we're never going to order any appetizers nor any desserts, we're still going to be saving about $6 per person per day in January. [Here are my computations.] That means if we had two young children with us, and planned not to use any of their credits at all, we would still save a little money on the Dining Plan. And all the appetizers and desserts we do order (some of which could actually end up constituting the young child's meals!), and all the snacks we get using the young child's credits -- that's all gravy.

The point is that you have choices, including deciding the Dining Plan, while good for some, is simply not good for you.

 

[Colmenares3]

I think in many cases Disney will allow you to treat your young child as an older child, and will charge you full price for admission and the Dining Plan. If your concerns about what your young child eats are very significant, then you have that option, and shouldn't have a problem paying what extra amount it would cost.

I actually called Disney last week about this very idea. And CM I spoke with said, in fact, they wouldn't let you upgrade a child's dining age unless you also upgrade their ticket age! You might be able to get a different answer, but that's the one I got.

 

[bicker]

Actually, that's exactly what I said ("... and will charge you full price for admission and the Dining Plan...").

 

[Colmenares3]

Ooops, sorry, Bicker. Guess I wasn't reading carefully this AM.

 

[bstnsprts]

Thanks for sharing and actually I can respect your opinion. At least you're honest about it and did not try to rationalize it and say Disney never cared. Truly that was the thing that upset me the most in the heated discussions.

I knew they cared, I knew they were working on changing it and many times by others, not you, I was accussed of having no idea what I was talking about. Had I not known for sure they were working to change it and did not want the plan used in the way it was being used, I would have never said so.

The plan had a loophole, it was used, Disney did not want it used that way and they fixed it.

Thanks Sammie, although things got heated at times, it was aways a pleasure discussing this with you and everyone else, yes even you Bicker. I for one don't hold hard feelings agasnt people just because we disagree, only when the name calling would start.

What do you think happened in the beginning? Did they just underestimate the potential popularity of DDP, and with that, the potential costs of the credits being pooled? I would have to say that in the beginning, and I stress, in the beginning, there could not have been munch concern over the potential costs of pooling the credits. This was a very big and obvious loophole, that's why I think it was very hard for everyone to agree that Disney cared about this when you knew they did.

 

[rantnnravin]

I think that everyone must consider that "INTENT" and "IMPLEMENTATION" are two entirely different things. Some people may assume they know what the intent of the dining plan was/is, but the only evidence anyone ultimately has is implementation.
The original implementation of the DDP was a pool of undifferentiated credits (regardless of cost). The 1/1/07 implementation of the DDP is a differentiation of credits according to cost.
Disney merely did what they felt they needed to do to clarify intent, since intent can never be ***-u-me-d.

 

[Lexxiefern]

So has anyone come back yet and said this is true? (Sorry I just skimmed through many pages) This only affects me for CS meals. Usually we would order 2 adult meals (we are 2 A/1C) at CS and my DD6 would share with me. She is very picky and does not like alot of the kids choices. I wish they would offer some of the same food as the adult meals just in kids portions. For instance at Cosmic Rays or Tusker House they have a rot chicken meal which my DD loves - why can't they offer a smaller portion of that? (like a 1/4 chicken instead of a half?)

Well, I usually have a hard time using up all my CS credits anyway, so not really a big deal. But c'mon Disney give us better kid's meal choices!!

 

[Allison]

So has anyone come back yet and said this is true? (Sorry I just skimmed through many pages) This only affects me for CS meals. Usually we would order 2 adult meals (we are 2 A/1C) at CS and my DD6 would share with me. She is very picky and does not like alot of the kids choices. I wish they would offer some of the same food as the adult meals just in kids portions. For instance at Cosmic Rays or Tusker House they have a rot chicken meal which my DD loves - why can't they offer a smaller portion of that? (like a 1/4 chicken instead of a half?)

Well, I usually have a hard time using up all my CS credits anyway, so not really a big deal. But c'mon Disney give us better kid's meal choices!!

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1314837
Yes, I saw the post yesterday. The link is above.

Plus, this thread was started by a CM who works at a restaurant.

 

[Lewisc]

Internet sites suggested "using your child as a license to print money". Posters on DIS said they would never "waste" a DDP credit on a kids meal and would always pay out of pocket.

My guess many more guests took advantage of Disney's generosity than Disney anticipated. I'll speculate that Disney could have accepted the occasional "child" credit purchasing all, or part, of an adult meal when the credit resulted from a child not eating. A child in the kids club. A sick child. Not from greedy guests paying cash for every meal and using the credit to treat friends staying offsite.

Prior meal plans had the same "loophole" but without the same issues. Disney didn't anticipate how guests would use/abuse the plan.

I think that everyone must consider that "INTENT" and "IMPLEMENTATION" are two entirely different things. Some people may assume they know what the intent of the dining plan was/is, but the only evidence anyone ultimately has is implementation.
The original implementation of the DDP was a pool of undifferentiated credits (regardless of cost). The 1/1/07 implementation of the DDP is a differentiation of credits according to cost.
Disney merely did what they felt they needed to do to clarify intent, since intent can never be ***-u-me-d.

 

[rantnnravin]

Internet sites suggested "using your child as a license to print money". Posters on DIS said they would never "waste" a DDP credit on a kids meal and would always pay out of pocket.

My guess many more guests took advantage of Disney's generosity than Disney anticipated. I'll speculate that Disney could have accepted the occasional "child" credit purchasing all, or part, of an adult meal when the credit resulted from a child not eating. A child in the kids club. A sick child. Not from greedy guests paying cash for every meal and using the credit to treat friends staying offsite.

Prior meal plans had the same "loophole" but without the same issues. Disney didn't anticipate how guests would use/abuse the plan.

prior meal plans were also more costly than the current one.

I don't disagree that other sites encouraging the practice of birthing ghost children and such went beyond the limits...that's blatant lying.

I also might submit that perhaps,...perhaps, all the calls/letters/emails to Disney asking them if a "child credit can be used for an adult" (when the denotation never existed in the first place) in order to "prove" a DISer "right" or "wrong" may have in fact contributed to/created the issue which Disney then felt it necessary to address

 

[Califgirl]

Due to some involved logistical vacation planning, 2 of our group will have citipasses, and I will have the only pass that can carry a dining plan on it.

We usually go to disney world, so I know how it works (or worked) there, but wanted to confirm as far as disneyland -
in WDW, you get so many lunch and dinner credits, that can be used in any combination on any day.
So if I am staying 2 days, but want to get a meal plan that will feed 2 adults for 2 days
1) will they let me get a meal plan for 4 days
2) can the credits still be used in any amount I want, when I want? (in this case, using all the credits in 2 days)

TIA, and let me know if I am not making sense LOL

Hipchickie, I think we are talking about apples and oranges here. It sounds as if you are talking about a trip to Disneyland, which does not have a dining program. Well, they do have a sort of dining program, but you don't really save much money and you must use the 'vouchers' at specified locations. If your trip is really to Disneyland, which it sounds like because of the 'city passes', then try asking about the food plan that Disneyland offers over on the Disneyland boards. I'm sure someone there has tried it out. But it is NOT the same program as WDW.

 

[NMW]

prior meal plans were also more costly than the current one.

I don't disagree that other sites encouraging the practice of birthing ghost children and such went beyond the limits...that's blatant lying.

I also might submit that perhaps,...perhaps, all the calls/letters/emails to Disney asking them if a "child credit can be used for an adult" (when the denotation never existed in the first place) in order to "prove" a DISer "right" or "wrong" may have in fact contributed to/created the issue which Disney then felt it necessary to address

Are you really suggesting that people on the Dis emailing Disney with questions about the DDP caused them to seperate the credits? Don't you think that when they did an audit of how the plans were used they could tell that a whole lot more adult meals were served than child ones? I remember reading posts where people wrote that they paid cash for EVERY kids meal to use their credits for other adult family members not on the DDP. I mean, you can go to the concierge desk and get a statement of every place you ate and the number of credits used, I'm sure Disney has much more information in their computers. They could probably tell you what you ordered at every meal using your DDP.

 

[rantnnravin]

are you really suggesting that Disney places no weight on the number of emails/phone calls they receive that are asking the same question?
which came first, the chicken or the egg??
I don't know.
but i will stand by my assertion that there is a "DIS" effect.
Hasn't it been stated time and again on this site-- Disney reads these boards...

 

[Sammie]

Thanks Sammie, although things got heated at times, it was aways a pleasure discussing this with you and everyone else, yes even you Bicker. I for one don't hold hard feelings agasnt people just because we disagree, only when the name calling would start.

What do you think happened in the beginning? Did they just underestimate the potential popularity of DDP, and with that, the potential costs of the credits being pooled? I would have to say that in the beginning, and I stress, in the beginning, there could not have been munch concern over the potential costs of pooling the credits. This was a very big and obvious loophole, that's why I think it was very hard for everyone to agree that Disney cared about this when you knew they did.

I think what happened, is that for one Disney is a very large company. Global even. There are over 55,000 employees at WDW alone. That in itself is something that unless you work for them, or have close friends that do and have for years, is very hard to understand how they do things. What seems so easy to some, is not easy at all to Disney.

They truly did not expect guests to abuse the child credits or even feed people not on the plan. I guess the reason I understand how they think, is I think the same way. Never in my wildest imagination would I have ever thought to use the plan in any way but the way it was intended to be used, adults buy adult meals, kid's buy kid's meals and that is determined by what I paid for. If I paid for 5 kid's meals and 10 adult meals, that is all I get. Just because the credits were all pooled on my resort ID, did not change what they were. I still knew what I paid for. To me the pooling was just convenience, never a means to change what was what.

Same with treating someone not on the plan. They did not purchase the plan, therefore I would not treat them by using it.

However for various reasons, of either innocent confusion, out right planned scamming, or somewhere in between, and with the Internet feeding it, the abuse just got completely and totally out of control.

Disney is always willing to allow and accept some abuse of their programs. They weigh is the abuse costing them money in revenue or manpower. At some point if the abuse is such that financially it is worth changing policy and enforcement then they do it. If not, they let it slide. This is not to say they like any abuse, but they are willing to accept a limited amount due to cost of the change.

The other problem and BuffaloGal will be able to support this. It is very hard to get all the CMs on the same page. Some truly do not care about policy, they just feel it is easier to tell the guest what they "want" to hear than try to enforce some policy. However it is clear from BuffaloGal's post that they are serious about this with their CMs now and the consequences will be severe for trying to override this change.

 

[bicker]

They don't care about the questions, no. They do care about what the sentiment is of the people with regard to the answers to the questions. However, even that is only a marginal interest: Companies have learned long ago that unsolicited feedback, while a good source of ideas about what new products and services they might offer, are a horrendous source of data about what people really believe. Disney, like most major companies, rely on normalized surveys (you can find a lot of discussion threads about them if the Search is working) for that sort of information.

So, no, people asking about using child credits for adult meals didn't prompt any change on the part of Disney, except to the extent that it helped Disney understand, "Oh crap! Some people really think that way?"

 

[rantnnravin]

... except to the extent that it helped Disney understand, "Oh crap! Some people really think that way?"

thanks for elucidating my point

 

[Pedler]

are you really suggesting that Disney places no weight on the number of emails/phone calls they receive that are asking the same question?
which came first, the chicken or the egg??
I don't know.
but i will stand by my assertion that there is a "DIS" effect.
Hasn't it been stated time and again on this site-- Disney reads these boards...

I tend to agree with Bicker that unsolicited customer responses are a good source for ideas but not for actual data. Much like Internet polls. However it could have given someone the idea to see if a problem really exists. I posted a while ago a list of the reasons why what some people called a "simple" system change could in fact take over a year to implement. The other side of that is the time it takes to decided to even consider making the change and if the problem exists.

The DDP came out in 2005. The first reports of using child credits on a wholesale basis probably came a few months into the year and really reached a crescendo during the summer of 2005. Who knows around that time a Disney exec could have thought there may be a problem and it should be discussed at the next team meeting. A month then goes by until the next meeting. At the meeting they decide there may be problem and they need to devise some metric to measure to see if indeed a problem exists. Another month goes by. Then they decided upon the metrics to measure and set up the task to the IT Dept to run the reports and gather the information. Another month goes by. Then maybe they decide they have a problem but what is the best solution to the problem. Another month goes by.....

I once read that running a large corporation is like captaining a super tanker. They don't just turn on a dime. Disney could have decided to start to investigate the situation in June 2005 and by some standards implementing a solution 18 months later would be considered quick.

From my point of view once they published the FAQ about child entitlements last year the intent was clear. I don't think it was illegal to use child credits for adult meals but it was not how they intended the plan to be used. It just took some time for the implementation to catch up.

 

[Disfan3]

We are being told that as of January 1st, the computers will know a child credit from an adult credit and there will be no way to get adult food when you paid child price on your DDP. Also, servers will be held strictly accountable for the number of diners on your key. This means no sending adults up to the CS counter twice to get grown up meals for the kids and no saving credits to buy relatives or friends who aren't on the plan a dinner.

can you SPLIT a meal with someone who is not on the plan??

 

[TikiGoddess]

When we went, it never crossed my mind to substitute an adult meal for a child credit. I will say I did have to get a couple adult meals for my kids simply because several of the places we ate were out of child meals. At that point the CMs told me the credits were not differentiated. I still got children's meals when available after that. My point is, if the CMs hadn't told me about the credits I never would have known that. It's probably a good thing that they changed it. It doesn't bother me in the least. I will of course order from the children's menu again on this trip w/DDP, unless of course, there's not a children's meal available.

 

[Disfan3]

we never even thought about getting adult meals with the child credits although the dessert thing is pretty disturbing...not to offer a CHOICE is not ok IMO. Actually, they had listed my 10yo as a child and I had to change that (free dining anyway) but she still ordered off the kids menus...