Have you been taped w/o your knowledge?

[momomonster]

*If* there were still checks and balances left within the federal govt I wouldn't be so worried. *If* this admin hadn't already lied about how they've been monitoring citizens, then I wouldn't be so worried. *If* there was some oversight on how this program is administered I wouldn't be so worried.

There is NOTHING stopping this adminstration from monitoring the activies of people for political reasons and I have ZERO trust in them not to do so. They have much too much to lose.

Bush quote from NY speech in April 04:

"Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires-a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution. "

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html

 

[Bob Slydell]

I really think sometimes people have a little too much trust and blind faith in the government. Governments don't always do the right thing, and they certainly don't always act with the best interests of the public in mind.

Just because it's America doesn't mean that every single little thing our gov't does is wonderful and innocent. Governments can be dangerous when they start being sneaky and gaining too much power/control over their people.

I find it sad that so many are complacent about these kinds of things, but, oh well.

But there's a middle ground, one where people realize that the government is not always right, however, on the flip side, they're not all out to get everyone as if this whole thing is one big evil conspiracy to control everyone's lives.

 

[Free4Life11]

I really think sometimes people have a little too much trust and blind faith in the government. Governments don't always do the right thing, and they certainly don't always act with the best interests of the public in mind.

Maybe it's just that some people have far too much going on in their lives to get worked up over every single story the media puts out there.

No not everything our government does is wonderful and innocent, but that doesn't mean that everything is part of some horrible plot to completely erode our civil liberties.

The media loves to get us worked up over things. In fact the thread of this title is a perfect example of how they (the media) work. They make a comment like that (have you been recorded?) when in actuality there is no reports of anyone being recorded.

And BTW -- once while talking to a friend I said "I am going to blow up ___ tommorow" just to see if anyone was listening. Nobody ever came and got me.

 

[chobie]

But there's a middle ground, one where people realize that the government is not always right, however, on the flip side, they're not all out to get everyone as if this whole thing is one big evil conspiracy to control everyone's lives.

Yes, but some of us don't see the middle ground as being "whatever the government wants to do is okay as long as it may stop terrorism".

 

[Bob Slydell]

Yes, but some of us don't see the middle ground as being "whatever the government wants to do is okay as long as it may stop terrorism".

I never said whatever they do is fine -- that's not the middle ground, that's the other side of the argument. It seems that this topic is pretty easy to divide up.

Staunch Republican = whatever it takes to save us from evil forces
Staunch Democrat = the current government is the evil force

I'm just saying that a few of us are somewhere in the middle there. I don't agree with some of what's been going on lately, but I'm also not reading all these articles automatically thinking the worst in everything either.

 

[DVC Sadie]

I guess it's the same way they decide everything else. I don't really enjoy paying all these taxes, but I don't have a say. Some people would gladly pay more. You win some and you lose some. Being part of a society involves compromise, I guess.

I totally agree!

I posted a question about Social Security on the BB because I truly wanted everyones opinions. I think that as a citizen I have a lot more to worry about than phone calls. I hate that I am forced to pay taxes but know that I have to for the betterment of all.

 

[momomonster]

Staunch Republican = whatever it takes to save us from evil forces
Staunch Democrat = the current government is the evil force

You're making this assumption, based on what I do not know. Maybe the complexity of what is going on is too much for you to process?

I have voted every way possible in my 16 years of voting- Democrat, Green, Libertarian, *and* Republican, which I think is typical of most Americans. To just say "You're a _______, so you think _______" is an attempt to get past the facts and discount all arguments. I've seen this done a LOT lately.

My main point is *we have no idea what the government is doing*. There is NO OVERSIGHT.

 

[CarolA]

Well, I am now considering calling people randomly just to mess up the tracking LOL!

From a purely fiscal point of view. YOUR TAX DOLLARS are paying for this... Sorry, but I can think of things I would RATHER have my TAX DOLLARS spent on... (I do not feel ANY safer today then pre 9-11. I am however MUCH MORE harrassed... maybe instead of paying to accumulate and deal with phone calls to my mother they could hire some TSA agents so that it wouldn't take over an hour to clear security at MCO??? There's a thought... maybe they could pay our soliders enough so that a private being shot at in Iraq doesnt' have his family qualify for food stamps???)

 

[chris1gill]

Why is this new news? Who did we all think they were taping with the recent discussions of them taping spies? You don't really know who a spy is until you've spied on them to see & if you have spied on someone who is not a spy, well, so sorry...

 

[TwIzTeR91]

Personally I don't mind that they are watching us. Go right ahead and let them. I could care less, I don't do anything wrong... What I care about is that they're breaking our right to privacy. That's like telling the Neo Nazis to stop talking. What they're doing is disgusting, but that's violating their right to free speech, and so they could turn right around and tell Gay-Marraige supporters that they can't talk because Neo Nazis don't have the right either. Like abortion isn't really an issue of killing a baby. If it was, most everyone would be against it... It's an issue of people having a right to choosing what they can and cannot to do with their bodies. Now, back to the main issue at hand... If we let them tap our phones now... What's next? Are they going to tape us? And then have our entire lives in their archives? What if these got into the wrong hands? What if the government had a complete takeover and we became fascist? How could anybody rebel? We were all stalked by the people that controlled us. My point is, this isn't bad now, but has a potential to be.

Just my two cents.

 

[poohandwendy]

I don't know if I have -- if I did know, it wouldn't have been taping me without my knowledge.

LOL, yeah that!

Actually, don't know and really don't care.

 

[poohandwendy]

Maybe the complexity of what is going on is too much for you to process?

LOL, I am thinking Bob can handle complex, he just might not agree with you on this issue.

 

[Laura]

Personally I don't mind that they are watching us. Go right ahead and let them. I could care less, I don't do anything wrong... What I care about is that they're breaking our right to privacy. That's like telling the Neo Nazis to stop talking. What they're doing is disgusting, but that's violating their right to free speech, and so they could turn right around and tell Gay-Marraige supporters that they can't talk because Neo Nazis don't have the right either. Like abortion isn't really an issue of killing a baby. If it was, most everyone would be against it... It's an issue of people having a right to choosing what they can and cannot to do with their bodies. Now, back to the main issue at hand... If we let them tap our phones now... What's next? Are they going to tape us? And then have our entire lives in their archives? What if these got into the wrong hands? What if the government had a complete takeover and we became fascist? How could anybody rebel? We were all stalked by the people that controlled us. My point is, this isn't bad now, but has a potential to be.

Just my two cents.

I pretty much agree. It is totally about privacy. People seem to be all too willing to give up some rights to it because they think another 9/11-type event is going to happen to them. Since the odds of it happening to me are pretty low, I have to say I'm more inclined to keep my right to privacy, as boring as the phone numbers I dial are.

Besides, how secure is this database? What if it's hacked? It's happened to databases of retailers' credit card information. If someone gets hold of my phone number, they can get my name and address, no problem.

 

[Anotherguynamedbob]

. Most likely to determine what a regular phone usage might look like and help identify an abnormal usage. Useful? Practical? Maybe not, but it sounds like the same thing that ATT does to track phone usage.

Huh? That doesn't make a lick of sense. If that's all they were doing, then why keep the program a secret? Then why, when Quest asked them to get a judicial ruling that the program was legal, did they refuse out of fear of getting turned down?

At some point, people are going to wake up to the fact that the president is lying about his spying on the American people. When he told the American people that everytime there is a wiretap, there is a warrent, he was lying. And today, when we read about the largest data mining operation in history - involving every phone call of every American, this is what Bush says, "We're not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."

Even my dogs figures out the "don't actually throw the tennis ball trick" after being fooled a few times.

 

[bsnyder]

Just a thought to throw out for debate. Some of you have expressed a stand that seems to be based on the overiding principal of privacy. That we can't give an inch on these issues without ALL our freedom being lost forever. I think that's short sighted, and missing the big picture.

Most Americans are concerned, to some degree or another, about individual liberty and the government's abuse of power in that arena. But particularly now, in a post 9/11 world, we have to strike some common sense balance between security and liberty. We've heard all kinds of outrage from liberals about the Patriot Act, and the NSA terrorist survellience program. Can anyone point to even one real life example where a person has had their rights violated because of these programs? They've been in affect since right after 9/11, plenty of time for abuses to show up, but yet they haven't. That would indicate that we're striking the right balance. And doing so can actually protect our civil liberties in the future. Because if we refuse to do any of these common sense things now, and we have another 9/11 type attack, or worse, a small nuke kills tens of thousands of people, then watch out. The debate will be over! An overwhelming majority of Americans will not only welcome but will actually demand a huge crackdown, and then the loss of real civil liberties will begin.

 

[Anotherguynamedbob]

we have to strike some common sense balance between security and liberty..

Hey Bet, I hear you and couldn't agree more. We need a balance. But we already have one. The government has extraordinary powers to spy on its citizens *already.* Usually all it needs to unleash that massive power is to go before a count and get a warrant.

The 4th amendment exists. Their are laws out there restricting the power of the government to spy on its people. I don't believe we need to repeal the 4th amendment. I don't believe we need to change those laws. But if people out there are so afraid of terrorism that they want to see the constitution and those laws changed, they should try and get that done.

What should not happen is for the President and the Executive branch to decide on its own that it no longer needs to follow the laws or the Constitution (note - reviewing the laws yourself and deciding what you are doing is legal, but refusing to submit to the Court system or the Legislative branch for their opinion is effectively the same thing as deciding you don't have to follow the law). No matter how you feel about the correct balance of government power vs individual liberty, regardless of how you feel about this president, you should be very concerned about the lawlessness of how these domestic spying programs are being implemented.

 

[CheshireVal]

J Can anyone point to even one real life example where a person has had their rights violated because of these programs?

What about the 5,000 innocent Arab American men who were detained and questioned without warrant in the name of the Patriot Act, simply on the basis of their race? Over 700 American Muslims were detained in NYC alone, none of whom had any connection to terrorists.

And on this new data mining: do you know exactly *who* is examining these phone records? The gov't has farmed out this job to less accountable agencies like covert military ops and private companies, some of which are not subject to any review.

It seems innocent now, but where will it stop?

All this is a bit to authoritarian for my taste.

 

[Galahad]

At some point, people are going to wake up to the fact that the president is lying about his spying on the American people.

This data collection pre-dates this administration.

 

[hiwaygal]

And on this new data mining: do you know exactly *who* is examining these phone records? The gov't has farmed out this job to less accountable agencies like covert military ops and private companies, some of which are not subject to any review.

Not picking on you, Val...just picking up on this point...

The phone companies and the internet companies have all been doing this data mining for years, they call it "market research". I think I trust these companies even less than the government to have these records...as the records can be sold to the highest bidder when the company needs to improve the bottom line.

 

[poohandwendy]

This data collection pre-dates this administration.

Sheesh Galahad, way to take the wind out of the sails!