Have to vent....DD just told me this concerning Public School

[treesinger]

Originally posted by JerseyJanice
"Why can't both be taught?"

Because a public school is a government institution, and in the U.S., there is a separation of church and state.

A public school has no business teaching its students religious beliefs. And if it did, which religion would it choose? Would it teach the Southern Baptist faith? Christian faith? Judaism? Hinduism? Catholism?

All of those faiths are valid in the eyes of their believers. I'm a Roman Catholic myself and can tell you there are things I am asked to believe in blindly. Would I, could I, should I expect my town's public school to teach them to my son? Of course not.

Something tells me if you used the public schools in your area, you wouldn't want that either--since I'm guessing you aren't a Catholic, which in my OPINION is the only true religion. And I bet you think your religion is the only TRUE one, correct? So how does a public school, which must serve all of its community, decide which faith to teach?

I do not believe in homeschooling; I'm not sure that's a debate you intended to start. I simply don't understand why people can't teach their religious beliefs to their kids on top of or conjunction with what is taught in public school.

And science, while not a religion per se, has many of the attributes of an ideology. In very very very many cases, it DOES have facts to back up its assertions. But that doesn't mean that EVERY scientific idea should be taken as gospel. Again, teaching evolution in school is fine and dandy as long as it is done in the proper context.

I've said that like fifty times on this thread and have had hardly a response as to whether or not this is an acceptable viewpoint to our resident non-believers.

So non-believers, what say you?

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by treesinger
Here I go, playing both sides of the fence now...

Please stop, you're making me dizzy!!

Teaching the THEORY of Evolution is just fine. Even if Christian students don't buy a word of it. As long as it is not preached as absolute fact and is presented in its proper context. I see nothing wrong with Christians having to do a paper on the theory of evolution. Evolution in and of itself exists and is worthy of inclusion in public education. But stretching it to represent the Origin of Man is where it oversteps its bounds. This viewpoint is also acceptable to me to be taught in public school, but only if presented as THEORY not FACT. Can an yone say why they don't agree with that?

Why is it ok to teach about one thing (evolution) that someone doesn't believe in because of their religious beliefs but not ok to teach about another thing (religion) that someone doesn't believe in because of their religious(or non-religious) beliefs?

Is the answer not to teach anything that would remotely interfere with one's personal beliefs (religious or non)?

 

[treesinger]

Because evolution, as a physical process, exists. Evolution can be taught as a scientific process without touting it as the Origin of Man. Creationism has no such separation and should therefore be excluded. At least, in the scientific context.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

sorry, don't have time to read all the answers but it is a POORLY written question. First of all humans did not evolve from Apes. Humans and Apes both evolved from a common Ape-like creature.

A better wording would have been:

According to the Theory of Evolution, humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

My son attends a Christian school where they teach both Evolution and Creationism. They are taught in class the the Lutheran church does not believe in Evolution, but they are allowed to make their own conclusions.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Creationism is faith-based. It is accepted as blind faith that God created humans 100%. There is nothing to debate. It is a "fact" of Creationism, which is a religious concept. Religion cannot be taught in school.

Evolution-Theory has puzzle pieces to debate. We have the science of archaeology, etc.. to study the past. It does not include God, therefore it can be taught in school.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Originally posted by Toby'sFriend
Humans and Apes both evolved from a common Ape-like creature.

A better wording would have been:

According to the Theory of Evolution, humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

See I don't agree with this. I do not agree they came from a common ancestor. Hence the "Theory" part of it.

 

[caitycaity]

Does this mean that public schools have a duty to indoctrinate students to be irreligious the same way that Chiristian schools infuse the curriculum with their faith?

whoa quite a leap there, for the king of common sense.

public schools have a duty to do what the state educational authority and the district board of education tell them to. if you don't like the state/district requirements, say so with your vote and/or put your child in a non-public educational environment.

 

[jrydberg]

Evolution does happen. That is a scientific fact.

Whether humans evolved from some common ancestor with apes is certainly a debateable point. It seems likely given the evidence, but it is not 100% certain.

My point is, evolution is more than a theory. The theory comes in when you try to apply it to human ancestors.

On a side note, I don't see anything inconsistent with believing in human evolution and being a Christian.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by treesinger
Because evolution, as a physical process, exists. Evolution can be taught as a scientific process without touting it as the Origin of Man. Creationism has no such separation and should therefore be excluded. At least, in the scientific context.

I'm going to have to disagree a bit. To me more specific, there's clear evidence that modern man developed from early man. The "missing link" is the supposed key to the connection between early man and the fork in the road for modern primates. So if one is to believe in creationism (fully, not a pseudo creationism with dose of evolution) where does this early man fit into creationism? Additionally, if one believes fully in creationism, there doesn't seem to be room for evolution at any level.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by caitycaity
whoa quite a leap there, for the king of common sense.

public schools have a duty to do what the state educational authority and the district board of education tell them to. if you don't like the state/district requirements, say so with your vote and/or put your child in a non-public educational environment.

What leap? I see the public schools as places to EDUCATE not INDOCTRINATE. Teaching evolution as an observed process is education. Teaching it as the Origin of Man is indoctrinating. Why don't you discriminate between the two?

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by The Mystery Machine
Creationism is faith-based. It is accepted as blind faith that God created humans 100%. There is nothing to debate. It is a "fact" of Creationism, which is a religious concept. Religion cannot be taught in school.

Evolution-Theory has puzzle pieces to debate. We have the science of archeology, etc.. to study the past. It does not include God, therefore it can be taught in school.

That really wasn't what I was asking.

If one is a true believer in creationism (via blind faith) that must preclude them from believing in any form of evolution. But if evolution is taught (in a scientific method) in school to those that don't believe, then I don't see anything wrong teaching (in a non-religious way) creationism to those that don't believe.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
I'm going to have to disagree a bit. To me more specific, there's clear evidence that modern man developed from early man. The "missing link" is the supposed key to the connection between early man and the fork in the road for modern primates. So if one is to believe in creationism (fully, not a pseudo creationism with dose of evolution) where does this early man fit into creationism? Additionally, if one believes fully in creationism, there doesn't seem to be room for evolution at any level.

Easy, early man was one of God's experiments before he found the form he wanted to use for modern man!

God also made sure that there would be a gap between early man and modern man that could not be rectified so as not to confuse the faithful.

Further, God created the earth and it's environment to help shape life into it's more intricate incarnations in the many different spheres of environmental existence.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
That really wasn't what I was asking.

If one is a true believer in creationism (via blind faith) that must preclude them from believing in any form of evolution. But if evolution is taught (in a scientific method) in school to those that don't believe, then I don't see anything wrong teaching (in a non-religious way) creationism to those that don't believe.

But Creationism can't be separated from God. It is inextricably related to religion.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by treesinger
What leap? I see the public schools as places to EDUCATE not INDOCTRINATE. Teaching evolution as an observed process is education. Teaching it as the Origin of Man is indoctrinating. Why don't you discriminate between the two?

I don't believe that anyone is suggesting indoctrination. Certainly one can learn about various subjects without being indoctrinated.
What's the difference between teaching about creationism in a non-religious way and teaching other non-religious subjects? Do you believe that religious teachings should be taught on the level of indoctrination?

 

[dizagain]

Originally posted by jrydberg
Evolution does happen. That is a scientific fact.

Whether humans evolved from some common ancestor with apes is certainly a debateable point. It seems likely given the evidence, but it is not 100% certain.

My point is, evolution is more than a theory. The theory comes in when you try to apply it to human ancestors.

On a side note, I don't see anything inconsistent with believing in human evolution and being a Christian.

This just about covers it! I went to a Christian school. In 8th Grade, my teacher was blasting Evolution and I stood up and asked her how she knows exactly how God put our beautiful world together and couldn't He have taken a LONG time with it...she looked at me like I had horns and I got sent out of class. Mommy and Daddy weren't too happy with that lady!!

Anyway, I am a Christian today and I fully believe God created the world, but I'm not about to say HOW. I can't find a post to quote, but I also bet the question on the test the OP was referring to was worded a little differently. If not, I'd question that teacher for reasons other than religious beliefs!!

 

[caitycaity]

What leap? I see the public schools as places to EDUCATE not INDOCTRINATE. Teaching evolution as an observed process is education. Teaching it as the Origin of Man is indoctrinating. Why don't you discriminate between the two?

if any public school is teaching evolution as more than a likely origin of man, then i think concerned parents should exercise their right as citizens to vote, or their right tyo find an educational outlet for their kids that is more suitable to their needs.

like i said before...what is taught is decided by the state/district. if you don't like what they are teaching you have a couple options: vote out the people and/or remove your child from the public school system.

the line between education and indoctrination is a thin one. since the state (and to a lesser degree the district) mandate curriculums in public schools, take it up with them.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by treesinger
But Creationism can't be separated from God. It is inextricably related to religion.

I realize that. But I can certainly learn about it without becoming part of it.

 

[caitycaity]

I realize that. But I can certainly learn about it without becoming part of it.

it doesn't belong in a public school science class. public school science classes are (and actually SCIENCE classes in any school should be) about the scientific method. how do you work creationism in with that? you can't.

 

[auntpolly]

There are many things about my faith and my beliefs that have taught DD and she's learned at church many people really would not be happy if the schools chose to include in their kids' classes! Would I love it if everybody believed as I do? I guess so, but it's not the school's job to promote any religious beliefs. And I'm glad -- I wanted DD to get her religious training at home and at church -- not from people who might not believe as we do.

 

[Chicago526]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm responding to the OP.

I think the question was worded poorly, it should have been "according to the theory of evolution...." As the question was, it wasn't a "true or false" kind of question, since it's open to several therories. Basicly, it was a bad question, and I don't think your nephew should have been marked for it once he explained to the teacher why he answered that way.

If you beleive in creationism, that's fine, I don't have a problem with it. But you kids should learn, at least, about Darwinism. If nothing else, it makes it easier to argue their own point of view when they know what "the other side" believes.

My own school handled it very well. At the begining of the class, the teacher explained that this is what scientists believe, and it in no way invalidates anyone's religious belief. And I don't think it does.

I'm agnostic, I beleive in God, but do not believe in any one religion. I do believe that humans evolved, but that God guided it in some fashion. The Adam and Eve story was just an explanation that man created to explain how humans came to be, before the benifit of science. the Bible is accurate in some areas (validated by other sources that the people/stories it containes are fact, as far as we can determine) but not in others, and conflicts itself in some areas, as well. It was writen by man, and man is falable (sp?). But on the whole, it's not a bad way to base how you worship or live your life. Just as long as you accept that others may not feel the same. I have no problem with those that feel the Bible is 100% fact, the undeniable word of God (I don't get it, myself, but that's just me) and those that teach it to their kids. Just don't restrict other points of view from you kids, you're doing them a diservice in the long run.