Has Disney’s DAS Pass Become A DASaster?

[Jellybean9]

"DAS users can have a snack, watch a parade, ride another attraction, visit a character all while "waiting in line"....these are all things that non-DAS users would like to do as well. To say there is not an advantage is kind of befuddling"

How very ignorant. CLEARLY you've not used DAS; the pre-booked attractions DON'T stay active after the hour. And I've waited on hold for DAYS to pre-book them, because they are necessary for us to be able to enjoy the parks at all.

You're assuming that everyone utilizing this program can just wander around enjoying this "advantage" during that wait time. And maybe some days we can. On most other days, we might be huddled in a bathroom, administering medications or suffering through horrific symptoms. Or we might be in the First Aid station for treatment, or siting or lying down to avoid passing out or suffering symptoms. Or we might be eating or drinking due to a medical necessity (not for a fun snack like "normal" people). Or we might be in the shade because direct sun or heat makes us sicker or causes serious health issues. Or we might be somewhere quiet, due to emotional issues or PTSD.

The DAS accommodations are NOT for fun, or to avoid wait times, or take advantage. They are NECESSARY for many people to be able to experience in a (typically limited) sense - even with the DAS - what YOU take for granted every single day.

You might want to reconsider stating things that aren't true, when you clearly haven't used this system, and don't understand the reason for it. Like the other poster said, check your privilege about an issue you obviously know NOTHING about.

No, I have a family member that uses DAS. And my daughter is eligible for DAS so I try to stay pretty well informed. And I have read multiple times that advanced selections have stayed active for some users. You don’t have to believe me but it does happen.

I think that’s great you and many others are using the DAS wait times to take care of your needs! That’s definitely why DAS is in place and exists in its current format. Again, you will read that I said I don’t want the DAS program to go away. I don’t want the accommodations to change. All I pointed out was that I thought their verification process for issuing DAS should be more robust. Which I pointed out they COULD do because they are providing better access than a regular standby guest.

 

[maxiesmom]

As someone pointed out, a "real verification process" would most likely cost the guests using the system more money. And if we are talking bout some kind of doctor's note, how is Disney to know if it is legitimate or not? You don't think a note could be easily faked?

 

[Angel Ariel]

No, I have a family member that uses DAS. And my daughter is eligible for DAS so I try to stay pretty well informed. And I have read multiple times that advanced selections have stayed active for some users. You don’t have to believe me but it does happen.

I think that’s great you and many others are using the DAS wait times to take care of your needs! That’s definitely why DAS is in place and exists in its current format. Again, you will read that I said I don’t want the DAS program to go away. I don’t want the accommodations to change. All I pointed out was that I thought their verification process for issuing DAS should be more robust. Which I pointed out they COULD do because they are providing better access than a regular standby guest.

Glitches do occur - with any digital system. They are not the norm and should not be expressed as such.

From our personal experience, the system worked as it says it will - which is to say that preselected return times were NOT available after the window.

This really is the major point that both the author and others aren’t addressing:

I'd like to add for others' benefit, that requiring a doctor's note or proof of any kind for a diagnosis only serves to make things more difficult for disabled people. The emotional, mental, and physical labor that goes into the hoop jumping to prove that we're "disabled enough" to ask for accommodations is maddening. In order to be approved for an accommodation at work, I had to provide a letter from my doctor as well and have her fill out several forms detailing why my diagnosis makes life difficult and why this accommodation is needed. It was infuriating, and brought so much stress into my life that I started questioning if asking for help is even worth it.

Creating more barriers for people with disabilities because able-bodied people may abuse it is incredibly ableist reasoning.

 

[SueM in MN]

As someone pointed out, a "real verification process" would most likely cost the guests using the system more money. And if we are talking bout some kind of doctor's note, how is Disney to know if it is legitimate or not? You don't think a note could be easily faked?

Back before DAS, there were multiple places on the internet that recommended people bring a doctor letter in order to obtain GAC (Guest Assistance Card); some of the websites said it was require, even though it wasn’t.
Many people posted on this forum about their experiences getting a letter from their doctor. It almost always involved a cost. Sometimes, just an administrative fee for writing the letter. Sometimes, the doctor required a visit; since it was not a medically required visit, the cost was not paid by insurance and was totally on the guest.
Some people reported their doctor refused to write a letter at all. On the other hand, people wrote that their doctor was aware of DAS and offered a letter even though no one in their family was disabled - one commenter wrote that her sister said her pediatrician always wrote a letter for her since ‘taking 3 little kids to Disney is a disability.’

There were the guests with letters who refused to answer any questions about their needs and argued with Guest Services because ‘you have to give it to me. I have a letter that orders it.’

At that point, there were also ‘sample letters’ on the internet. Most of them used the same language, i.e. ‘please allow my patient expedited access.’ There were various places on the internet where people reported making their own doctor letters were able to get away with it. It would be even easier now to make a legitimate looking fake - easy to get logos on line, good word processors and printers.
Without having a division to verify documentation is real, requiring letters would not do much to safeguard.

 

[jlundeen]

Just a comment on the "ADVANCED DAS SELECTIONS" staying open.... there could be two things at play here. It's well known that for all G+, $ILL, DAS Adv, as well as the old FP reservations that there is a short Grace Period for a few minutes before and a little longer after the hour reservation time. Maybe that's what's happening... or it could be that a CM is doing a manual override. Or, like PP said, it could be a glitch. Why is there such a big concern about this?

The more I read about how this is not a fair system to non-DAS users, the more it sounds like people are not understanding what they are seeing and assuming that it's cheaters. And it's also could be that some folks are thinking a vast number of people are cheating and thereby, getting something that they themselves are not. I don't know. But this has been argued over and over and over, and each time, it seems to circle back around to where it started....

Is this really all that important that some are using a system that helps them to enjoy what Disney offers to everyone - and while there may be some who abuse the system, does anyone really have evidence of it, or is it simply FOMO?

Only Disney knows how many DAS holders are utilizing this and to me, personally, I know that I'm glad that the system is in place so that many can go to Disney where otherwise they may not be able to.

 

[Genie+]

The author actually states that her family would qualify for DAS but they choose not to use it.

“Even though mine is an additional needs family, for our specific circumstances, I’ve always tried to get through the parks without the pass; the lessons in waiting were more useful for my personal situation than the pass would have been. Many don’t have that luxury and need additional assistance to be able to visit the parks at all.”

Regardless, I agree with the overwhelming assessment in this thread that there are a ton of inappropriate assumptions and ableism within it.

@WebmasterJackie @WebmasterPete @WebmasterCorey - please read this thread. The speculation and assumptions in this article are inappropriate.

Good point. I took “I’ve always tried to get through the parks without the pass” as trying not to use until absolutely necessary. iirc other articles mention her using the pass.

Just more of the same flavor, trying to impose her individual circumstances as morally superior.

She believes the magic cure to what ails DAS is doctor’s notes. It’s not. It’s just a different can of worms.

 

[SueM in MN]

Glitches do occur - with any digital system. They are not the norm and should not be expressed as such.

From our personal experience, the system worked as it says it will - which is to say that preselected return times were NOT available after the window.

This really is the major point that both the author and others aren’t addressing:



Creating more barriers for people with disabilities because able-bodied people may abuse it is incredibly ableist reasoning.

My family found that some of my daughter’s DAS Advance Selections remained active after an hour and others didn’t. Remaining active after an hour was not something that could be relied on; it was not a feature, it was a glitch.

 

[Lilsia]

Back before DAS, there were multiple places on the internet that recommended people bring a doctor letter in order to obtain GAC (Guest Assistance Card); some of the websites said it was require, even though it wasn’t.
Many people posted on this forum about their experiences getting a letter from their doctor. It almost always involved a cost. Sometimes, just an administrative fee for writing the letter. Sometimes, the doctor required a visit; since it was not a medically required visit, the cost was not paid by insurance and was totally on the guest.
Some people reported their doctor refused to write a letter at all. On the other hand, people wrote that their doctor was aware of DAS and offered a letter even though no one in their family was disabled - one commenter wrote that her sister said her pediatrician always wrote a letter for her since ‘taking 3 little kids to Disney is a disability.’

There were the guests with letters who refused to answer any questions about their needs and argued with Guest Services because ‘you have to give it to me. I have a letter that orders it.’

At that point, there were also ‘sample letters’ on the internet. Most of them used the same language, i.e. ‘please allow my patient expedited access.’ There were various places on the internet where people reported making their own doctor letters were able to get away with it. It would be even easier now to make a legitimate looking fake - easy to get logos on line, good word processors and printers.
Without having a division to verify documentation is real, requiring letters would not do much to safeguard.

I agree with all of this. Plus I have heard so many say that "my Country requires a doctor note" don't seem to understand how much of burden it can be here in the States. We have insurance that my husband gets from his job and we pay almost $600/month for it. But it only covers one well visit a year that is paid 100%, after that, any visits we need to fulfill our $2200 annual deductible before it kicks in. So even though we pay that much a month, I still have to pay OOP for any office visit. So in my area, it would be anywhere from $200-$300 just for a doctor to write a note to get DAS. There is nothing that they can do for my issue and I don't get any kind of treatment for it, so it's not even something that I have a regular doctor for. So they would have to take my word for it. How is that any different then my just telling Disney my issues?

 

[Lilsia]

Just a comment on the "ADVANCED DAS SELECTIONS" staying open.... there could be two things at play here. It's well known that for all G+, $ILL, DAS Adv, as well as the old FP reservations that there is a short Grace Period for a few minutes before and a little longer after the hour reservation time. Maybe that's what's happening... or it could be that a CM is doing a manual override. Or, like PP said, it could be a glitch. Why is there such a big concern about this?

The more I read about how this is not a fair system to non-DAS users, the more it sounds like people are not understanding what they are seeing and assuming that it's cheaters. And it's also could be that some folks are thinking a vast number of people are cheating and thereby, getting something that they themselves are not. I don't know. But this has been argued over and over and over, and each time, it seems to circle back around to where it started....

Is this really all that important that some are using a system that helps them to enjoy what Disney offers to everyone - and while there may be some who abuse the system, does anyone really have evidence of it, or is it simply FOMO?

Only Disney knows how many DAS holders are utilizing this and to me, personally, I know that I'm glad that the system is in place so that many can go to Disney where otherwise they may not be able to.

This is what I was wondering, why is the advanced 2 choices that much of a big deal to some? I don't call ahead, I just renew it when I get there and I know that there are plenty others who do so also. Disney gives out return times like candy to people. Anytime someone has a complaint at guest services, they make them happy by giving them a return time to a ride. Is anyone this concerned about those people?

 

[Angel Ariel]

I agree with all of this. Plus I have heard so many say that "my Country requires a doctor note" don't seem to understand how much of burden it can be here in the States. We have insurance that my husband gets from his job and we pay almost $600/month for it. But it only covers one well visit a year that is paid 100%, after that, any visits we need to fulfill our $2200 annual deductible before it kicks in. So even though we pay that much a month, I still have to pay OOP for any office visit. So in my area, it would be anywhere from $200-$300 just for a doctor to write a note to get DAS. There is nothing that they can do for my issue and I don't get any kind of treatment for it, so it's not even something that I have a regular doctor for. So they would have to take my word for it. How is that any different then my just telling Disney my issues?

Exactly - and beyond affordability/insurance barriers, it can be a burden just to even get to a doctor (location dependent), that one can get a doctors visit in the first place (wait lists), etc…

There’s a lot of privilege in taking the “just get a doctor’s note and prove it” view.

 

[SueM in MN]

I

Exactly - and beyond affordability/insurance barriers, it can be a burden just to even get to a doctor (location dependent), that one can get a doctors visit in the first place (wait lists), etc…

There’s a lot of privilege in taking the “just get a doctor’s note and prove it” view.

I’m not a lawyer (and don’t play one on TV - LOL), but this is the part of the ADA I’ve always been told/understood to be one of the main reasons why doctor’s letter or proof of disability can’t be required under the ADA Title III, which includes public accommodations like businesses and entertainment, like Theme Parks.
(Proof/documentation can be required in some situations for Title I, which covers employment). My bold:
Quote:

§ 36.301 Eligibility criteria.​

• (a) General. A public accommodation shall not impose or apply eligibility criteria that screen out or tend to screen out an individual with a disability or any class of individuals with disabilities from fully and equally enjoying any goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations, unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered.
• (b) Safety. A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.
• (c) Charges. A public accommodation may not impose a surcharge on a particular individual with a disability or any group of individuals with disabilities to cover the costs of measures, such as the provision of auxiliary aids, barrier removal, alternatives to barrier removal, and reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, that are required to provide that individual or group with the nondiscriminatory treatment required by the Act or this part.

§ 36.302 Modifications in policies, practices, or procedures.​

• (a) General. A public accommodation shall make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when the modifications are necessary to afford goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the public accommodation can demonstrate that making the modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations.

END QUOTE and This is the link to the ADA regulation. There are other technical bulletins and official business summaries that say the same.

Requiring a doctor letter or other proof of disability does tend to screen out people. For example, the kind of ‘hoops’ they need to go thru to get the proof might include a doctor visit, paying for the doctor visit and/or letter, even finding a doctor.
From what I’ve read, it appears that the ‘loophole’ some theme parks are using to require a letter from a physician is that it’s « necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered. « Because they offer different levels of accommodation, they use the letter to determine the level offered to the guest.
I have also read that requiring a doctor note could possibly be interpreted as a ‘surcharge’.

The Modifications part does talk about the need for ‘reasonable modifications’ when they are necessary for disabled guests access. In the autism GAC (Guest Assistance Card) lawsuit, the plaintiffs tried to argue that the only accommodate that would fit their needs was immediate, unlimited access to attractions. Disney was successfully able to argue that was not necessary for the plaintiffs and that it was not reasonable because it would fundamentally and negatively alter the nature/Experience for other guests.

 

[juuuliebeth]

(c) Charges. A public accommodation may not impose a surcharge on a particular individual with a disability or any group of individuals with disabilities to cover the costs of measures, such as the provision of auxiliary aids, barrier removal, alternatives to barrier removal, and reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, that are required to provide that individual or group with the nondiscriminatory treatment required by the Act or this part.

This is why I hate that they don't include mobility issues in DAS eligibility. They say you can use a wheelchair or ECV, but those cost money to rent. How is that not a surcharge? If their alternative to DAS requires you to spend money, it's not an accommodation.

 

[SueM in MN]

This is why I hate that they don't include mobility issues in DAS eligibility. They say you can use a wheelchair or ECV, but those cost money to rent. How is that not a surcharge? If their alternative to DAS requires you to spend money, it's not an accommodation.

There is a specific part in the ADA that says the ‘entity’ must allow people to bring in/use their own mobility devices, but the entity is not required to provide them.

 

[Disneychick13]

I

I’m not a lawyer (and don’t play one on TV - LOL), but this is the part of the ADA I’ve always been told/understood to be one of the main reasons why doctor’s letter or proof of disability can’t be required under the ADA Title III, which includes public accommodations like businesses and entertainment, like Theme Parks.
(Proof/documentation can be required in some situations for Title I, which covers employment). My bold:
Quote:

§ 36.301 Eligibility criteria.​

• (a) General. A public accommodation shall not impose or apply eligibility criteria that screen out or tend to screen out an individual with a disability or any class of individuals with disabilities from fully and equally enjoying any goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations, unless such criteria can be shown to be necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered.
• (b) Safety. A public accommodation may impose legitimate safety requirements that are necessary for safe operation. Safety requirements must be based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or generalizations about individuals with disabilities.
• (c) Charges. A public accommodation may not impose a surcharge on a particular individual with a disability or any group of individuals with disabilities to cover the costs of measures, such as the provision of auxiliary aids, barrier removal, alternatives to barrier removal, and reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, that are required to provide that individual or group with the nondiscriminatory treatment required by the Act or this part.

§ 36.302 Modifications in policies, practices, or procedures.​

• (a) General. A public accommodation shall make reasonable modifications in policies, practices, or procedures, when the modifications are necessary to afford goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the public accommodation can demonstrate that making the modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations.

END QUOTE and This is the link to the ADA regulation. There are other technical bulletins and official business summaries that say the same.

Requiring a doctor letter or other proof of disability does tend to screen out people. For example, the kind of ‘hoops’ they need to go thru to get the proof might include a doctor visit, paying for the doctor visit and/or letter, even finding a doctor.
From what I’ve read, it appears that the ‘loophole’ some theme parks are using to require a letter from a physician is that it’s « necessary for the provision of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations being offered. « Because they offer different levels of accommodation, they use the letter to determine the level offered to the guest.
I have also read that requiring a doctor note could possibly be interpreted as a ‘surcharge’.

The Modifications part does talk about the need for ‘reasonable modifications’ when they are necessary for disabled guests access. In the autism GAC (Guest Assistance Card) lawsuit, the plaintiffs tried to argue that the only accommodate that would fit their needs was immediate, unlimited access to attractions. Disney was successfully able to argue that was not necessary for the plaintiffs and that it was not reasonable because it would fundamentally and negatively alter the nature/Experience for other guests.

The problem with that is that six flags does require a dr to certify a person’s need for accommodation. And I know that it’s for the equivalent of their “fast pass” system, but in Disney they are walking a very fine line. While the DAS system is not equivalent to genie+$/LL$, we are still talking about the ability to use a method that is a paid method versus one given for free. It’s a very fine distinction. If you are just looking at features of the system (and not looking at the disability aspect of it), there are arguments to be made that each system has superior aspects to the other. So I really think there is an argument to be made why a health care profession’s certification might be an important thing that might actually be legal in regards to the wording of the ADA.

Since there hasn’t been a successful challenge to six flags system, I would assume there’s no widespread complaints about the high cost of getting a form filled out. I think for most people, although I would add not all, the cost and time for getting a form filled out is negligible. Mainly because many people, most especially people with conditions that render them disabled and almost all children) probably visit the physician at least once a year. So I think that argument is probably not the best one.

 

[juuuliebeth]

There is a specific part in the ADA that says the ‘entity’ must allow people to bring in/use their own mobility devices, but the entity is not required to provide them.

I should have clarified that I don't expect ECVs and wheelchairs to be free -- I would have expected DAS to accommodate mobility issues, which I hear they regularly don't. There are people with mobility issues that are exacerbated by having to stand and walk more at Disney than in their normal lives. They don't have their own wheelchair or ECV because they don't require it at home. (Or perhaps their insurance won't cover it and they can't afford it.)

 

[Angel Ariel]

The problem with that is that six flags does require a dr to certify a person’s need for accommodation. And I know that it’s for the equivalent of their “fast pass” system, but in Disney they are walking a very fine line. While the DAS system is not equivalent to genie+$/LL$, we are still talking about the ability to use a method that is a paid method versus one given for free. It’s a very fine distinction. If you are just looking at features of the system (and not looking at the disability aspect of it), there are arguments to be made that each system has superior aspects to the other. So I really think there is an argument to be made why a health care profession’s certification might be an important thing that might actually be legal in regards to the wording of the ADA.

Since there hasn’t been a successful challenge to six flags system, I would assume there’s no widespread complaints about the high cost of getting a form filled out. I think for most people, although I would add not all, the cost and time for getting a form filled out is negligible. Mainly because many people, most especially people with conditions that render them disabled and almost all children) probably visit the physician at least once a year. So I think that argument is probably not the best one.

The six flags system also doesn’t require only a doctor’s note. This is a screenshot - a note from an educational professional suffices for the system they use to verify.

This is just as ripe for the abuse concern you’ve noted as what Disney is doing.

Again, making disabled people responsible - and face more barriers to access - because of the abuses of non-disabled people only hurts those this system is trying to accommodate.

 

[maxiesmom]

I should have clarified that I don't expect ECVs and wheelchairs to be free -- I would have expected DAS to accommodate mobility issues, which I hear they regularly don't. There are people with mobility issues that are exacerbated by having to stand and walk more at Disney than in their normal lives. They don't have their own wheelchair or ECV because they don't require it at home. (Or perhaps their insurance won't cover it and they can't afford it.)

I don't see how it would help much. If the DAS accommodated mobility issues, how would you get the user to the rides? There is an awful lot of walking to the rides, nevermind the ride queues.

I, at the ripe old age of 55, need a scooter at WDW. I can walk, but without one after a while my left leg starts to kick out on it's own, and I lose my balance, and will fall if I can't brace myself. Say I have a DAS at it is for my mobility needs. What exactly does the DAS do for me?

 

[dizneedoll]

Exactly - and beyond affordability/insurance barriers, it can be a burden just to even get to a doctor (location dependent), that one can get a doctors visit in the first place (wait lists), etc…

There’s a lot of privilege in taking the “just get a doctor’s note and prove it” view.

Exactly! I live about 40 min from DL and go quite frequently. I have to re-register for DAS every 60 days. So do these people expect me to go get a new note every 60 days!? It takes at least 30 day waiting just to get into see the doctor. And then the doctor where I go doesn't even fill out notes. You have to go through a separate office for that and that can take a month too. Its a lot of jumping through hoops. I'd never do it and just wouldn't ever go anymore.

Instead how about all these people throwing a fit about how they think DAS works and assuming everyone is scamming just mind their own business!

 

[SueM in MN]

…….
Since there hasn’t been a successful challenge to six flags system, I would assume there’s no widespread complaints about the high cost of getting a form filled out. I think for most people, although I would add not all, the cost and time for getting a form filled out is negligible. Mainly because many people, most especially people with conditions that render them disabled and almost all children) probably visit the physician at least once a year. So I think that argument is probably not the best one.

I don’t know that there has been any challenge or lawsuit related to the 6 Flags system, much less an unsuccessful one. Even if there was, that’s not an indication that there are no widespread complaints about it.
I also don’t know how many people with disabilities go to 6 Flags parks compared to Disney parks.

And what one person considers a negligible cost and time could be a huge barrier to someone else. Especially when the main/only reason for the requirement is to reassure able bodied people that other able bodied people are not cheating.
If Disney felt they needed to do more, they would

 

[Angel Ariel]

Since there hasn’t been a successful challenge to six flags system, I would assume there’s no widespread complaints about the high cost of getting a form filled out. I think for most people, although I would add not all, the cost and time for getting a form filled out is negligible. Mainly because many people, most especially people with conditions that render them disabled and almost all children) probably visit the physician at least once a year. So I think that argument is probably not the best one.

As to this. Please see the above poster, and perhaps hold your judgments about what arguments are the “best” ones.

Our pediatrician doesn’t have the knowledge of our daughter’s condition to speak to her accommodations for a theme park. She could write a letter, maybe, but it would be us basically telling her what to say anyway. So, again, what’s the difference between that and us doing it ourselves?

Our developmental pediatrician does, whom we have to pay out of pocket for as our insurance doesn’t cover them anymore, and it’s upwards of $1,000 a visit. It’s not negligible, and it’s not quick as it takes months and months to get scheduled for an appointment.

Please be cautious about the assumptions you make.