Gun Found at AK - Updated Post#25 Guest Found Loaded Gun

[AmyB2006]

My main point was the 2nd Amendment isn't a valid argument for carrying a gun on private property if the property owner has a policy against weapons.

Well, it's just like breaking any other rule. How much "trouble" is one going to be in?

That's I think what people are failing to realize. The 2nd Amendment and FL Gun laws DO allow you to carry the gun onto Disney property.

Take Disney out of the equation. If I choose to ignore the rules of the private establishment I'm going to, then I will be subject to the punishment that entity wants to hand down to me, IF they find out I have broken a rule.

If people keep listening to the liberal media and their scare tactics about guns, every business in this country will have a "no guns" sign posted at the front door. I can guarantee you, that I will be probably be "breaking a few rules", if it ever comes to that.

Now, with that said, I do agree with most that bringing a gun to Disney is really not necessary. I've already said that. And I think this guy was really careless and this could have turned out really bad. He's lucky it didn't.

But please don't confuse breaking a rule of a private business entity with that of breaking the law. The law doesn't say you can carry concealed, unless someone doesn't want you to. It says you can carry concealed.

ETA... Just for clarification, I am NOT advocating that people go out in an attempt to break Disney rules. That's NOT what I am saying.

 

[ponyboy]

The second amendment is irrelevant in this discussion. The Constitution of the United States and it's amendments are references to federal authority only and has nothing to do with private property.

So, you are free to exercise your 1st amendment right to free speech and the government can't stop you, however if you're at my house or my place of business that doesn't apply. If I don't like your opinion or point of view then I can make you leave.

Same goes for your right to bear arms. If I don't want you carrying guns in my house or place of business then you can't. It's my property and my rules. As a non-governmental entity, it is not possible for me to violate your rights laid out in the Constitution.

 

[Sir Aaron]

I just thought I'd throw another tidbit in here, relevant or not...

As I said previously, DH is a police officer and also an avid hunter. As such, we have guns in the house and one is loaded at all times. When our children were very young, we decided that we would have no TOY guns in the house. Here's the reason...our children have been familiarized with the gun(s). They have been taught that ANY gun they see is NOT a toy. We have never treated the guns as a taboo subject and the girls have shot their own rifles (a .22 and a .223) and DD9 has shot a .38 revolver. They are very aware of what real guns do and they have no desire to play with one, not even one that is a toy. They use them for two purposes...deer hunting and target practice.

I work in EMS and I see what damage firearms can do when put in the wrong hands, but I know that the guns are NOT the problem. The criminals pulling the trigger are the problem. Well, actually, I've seen a lot of shootings where the criminal wasn't properly handling his gun and shot himself in a "sensitive" area while trying to get his gun out of his waistband...but that's just karma. I've heard co-workers debate as to whether or not paramedics should be allowed to carry a weapon (gun) while on duty. I am 100% against that because I have enough to worry about when I am on a call. Protecting a sidearm is not something I want to have to worry about while doing CPR on someone. If I cannot effectively maintain possession of a weapon, I won't carry one. The gentleman at the AK was unable to maintain possession of his gun and therefore, his license to carry one should be revoked, or at least suspended pending remediation.

I am a LEO and when I retire I'd like to be a paramedic. I know the odds are long on that, but I'd never carry a weapon while trying to do tht job. Weapon retention is a top priority and you just can't be worrying about that while trying to give medical aid.

 

[AmyB2006]

The second amendment is irrelevant in this discussion. The Constitution of the United States and it's amendments are references to federal authority only and has nothing to do with private property.

So, you are free to exercise your 1st amendment right to free speech and the government can't stop you, however if you're at my house or my place of business that doesn't apply. If I don't like your opinion or point of view then I can make you leave.

Same goes for your right to bear arms. If I don't want you carrying guns in my house or place of business then you can't. It's my property and my rules. As a non-governmental entity, it is not possible for me to violate your rights laid out in the Constitution.

Agreed!! All I'm saying is, you would have to catch me first. LOL IF I decided to violate your rules.

 

[ponyboy]

Agreed!! All I'm saying is, you would have to catch me first. LOL IF I decided to violate your rules.

Well be careful if you come to Texas, you can't just ignore the 30.06 no concealed handgun signs. Trespass by a concealed handgun license holder is a class A misdemeanor.

 

[ChipnDale79]

If people keep listening to the liberal media and their scare tactics about guns, every business in this country will have a "no guns" sign posted at the front door. I can guarantee you, that I will be probably be "breaking a few rules", if it ever comes to that.

Let me preface this by saying I support the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership, but I also support more gun regulations. One being what you just stated above.

It's my personal opinion that if a private property owner or business owner states that you are not allowed to bring a weapon onto their property or into their business, and you do, then it should be a crime.

I hear people claiming they are responsible gun owners in one breath, and then another stating they would break the rules in order to carry their weapon with them, to me that's not a responsible gun owner.

Follow the rules.

 

[AmyB2006]

Let me preface this by saying I support the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership, but I also support more gun regulations. One being what you just stated above.

It's my personal opinion that if a private property owner or business owner states that you are not allowed to bring a weapon onto their property or into their business, and you do, then it should be a crime.

I hear people claiming they are responsible gun owners in one breath, and then another stating they would break the rules in order to carry their weapon with them, to me that's not a responsible gun owner.

Follow the rules.

I do follow the rules. Of the law.

ETA.. I realize that this will probably make you and some others angry. Let's just say this. I actually do follow the rules. At Disney, neither of us carry.

To be honest, I probably won't go into those businesses. But, the rapid sweeping illogical reactions that people are having and talk that our government wants to "ban weapons", really scares me.

You are scared if I have one, I am scared to not have one. I realize you said "more regulations", but in reality if the laws on the books were enforced, there are enough regulations already out there.

The reality is this. Criminals aren't going to care if you have a No Guns sign posted at your front door. By requiring me to leave my weapon in the vehicle, now you've disarmed me, the law abiding rule following citizen, and now I can't protect myself or my family against the criminal that was never going to follow your rules in the first place.

 

[ponyboy]

Let me preface this by saying I support the 2nd Amendment and gun ownership, but I also support more gun regulations. One being what you just stated above.

It's my personal opinion that if a private property owner or business owner states that you are not allowed to bring a weapon onto their property or into their business, and you do, then it should be a crime.

I hear people claiming they are responsible gun owners in one breath, and then another stating they would break the rules in order to carry their weapon with them, to me that's not a responsible gun owner.

Follow the rules.

Texas is a strong property rights state. That's why we have a wide leeway in using deadly force to protect property in many situations. Here, it is a crime to carry a firearm onto private property against the owners wishes and rightfully so.

I don't agree with places that restrict firearm possession on their premises but it is absolutely their right to do so and their decision should be respected.

 

[WDSearcher]

I do follow the rules. Of the law.

ETA.. I realize that this will probably make you and some others angry. Let's just say this. I actually do follow the rules. At Disney, neither of us carry.

To be honest, I probably won't go into those businesses. But, the rapid sweeping illogical reactions that people are having and talk that our government wants to "ban weapons", really scares me.

You are scared if I have one, I am scared to not have one. I realize you said "more regulations", but in reality if the laws on the books were enforced, there are enough regulations already out there.

The reality is this. Criminals aren't going to care if you have a No Guns sign posted at your front door. By requiring me to leave my weapon in the vehicle, now you've disarmed me, the law abiding rule following citizen, and now I can't protect myself or my family against the criminal that was never going to follow your rules in the first place.

But haven't I also disarmed the guy who bought his gun on a lark at a gun show at the fairgrounds, has no idea how to really use it, hasn't had any instruction, and keeps it in the glovebox because he thinks it's cool?

Honestly -- if every gun owner was like you and knew how and when to use their weapon and didn't decide to carry just because it's fun to have a gun, I'd have no issue with everyone walking around armed. If everyone who wanted to buy a gun had to pass a test, like we all have to do to drive, I'd be a-okay with it all. But that's not how it works.

So if posting "No Guns Please" at my business stops even one person from bringing his gun inside where he might discharge it by accident, then I'm good with that.

I've lived on my own for over 40 years and have never felt the need to be armed. When I see someone write, "You are scared if I have one, I am scared to not have one.", I always wonder where it is you live and what it is you're scared of. In all my time on this planet, I've never once been in a situation where I thought, "Man ... if I only had a gun right now." Maybe that makes me naive or just really lucky, I don't know.

I have, however, been in two situations where very nervous gun owners pulled their guns to thwart perceived threats (a noise in an alley; a stranger on a street). In one case, they fired -- wildly -- and thankfully only managed to ding a dumpster. They pulled the gun and shot before even saying anything. I looked at him and said, "What the hell was that?!" and he said that he was nervous and "it just happened."

In the other, the "stranger on the street" ended up being an off-duty cop who was walking his dog. THAT was an interesting conversation. And in that case, I had no idea that my friend even owned a gun. When asked about it later, he said, "I wanted to protect myself". He'd never taken any shooting practice, no time on a range, no safety class, nothing.

Those are the people who shouldn't carry guns. But there's no one out there telling them that.

 

[Cafeen]

To be honest, I probably won't go into those businesses. But, the rapid sweeping illogical reactions that people are having and talk that our government wants to "ban weapons", really scares me.

Just saying, there may be sweeping illogical reactions on both sides .

IMO, CCW holders should be held to a higher standard than non-CCW holders. This means respecting the policies of the location as well as properly securing said items. Failure to do so should result in loss of CCW permits.

CCW is not a right but a privilege which (should) come with some pretty hefty responsibilities. Failure to live up to said responsibilities should result in forfeiture of the privilege.

For the original topic, this man should lose his CCW permit for a span of time. As a CCW holder, he should have researched the policies of the destination as well as properly secured his weapon. (Note, this fits into the car analogy as well, since if you're negligent with your car, you may lose privileges of driving it for a period of time).

Now, I have no problems with people carrying. I couldn't care less if they feel they need it 24/7 or they decide that they're rather go without. I do believe in a much more balanced approach to regulation, but that's never going to get anywhere since I don't have the buying power of the NRA or equivalent anti-gun group.

 

[ChipnDale79]

I do follow the rules. Of the law.

ETA.. I realize that this will probably make you and some others angry. Let's just say this. I actually do follow the rules. At Disney, neither of us carry.

To be honest, I probably won't go into those businesses. But, the rapid sweeping illogical reactions that people are having and talk that our government wants to "ban weapons", really scares me.

You are scared if I have one, I am scared to not have one. I realize you said "more regulations", but in reality if the laws on the books were enforced, there are enough regulations already out there.

The reality is this. Criminals aren't going to care if you have a No Guns sign posted at your front door. By requiring me to leave my weapon in the vehicle, now you've disarmed me, the law abiding rule following citizen, and now I can't protect myself or my family against the criminal that was never going to follow your rules in the first place.

You said you would break the rules, that's why I said that.

 

[capegirl]

Those are the people who shouldn't carry guns. But there's no one out there telling them that.

This is the problem...and this is what makes us feel so vulnerable. It makes us feel uneasy to know that we could be standing in line at Disney, or anywhere for that matter, next to someone who has no business carrying a gun. How do we protect ourselves from someone who is irresponsible, or from some out of the blue madman who wants to kill people? There are no easy answers, but it would be helpful if Disney focused more on prevention. At the airport, I do not want to walk a through a metal detector, or have my belongings scanned, but if it prevents even one tragedy, then I am willing to go through the trouble.

 

[BandontheRun]

We should clarify a few things. Assuming the information in the article is correct (that the man had a valid Florida CCW permit) then he was perfectly LEGAL in carrying a concealed pistol into the park. This is why he was not arrested on the spot. What he did was violate Disney's policy (not a law). Since he left when told to do so, he was not charged with trepassing. Had he insisted on staying, then he would have broken a law.

Which is not to say he was careless, reckless, and irresponsible. He failed to secure his firearm appropriately using a retention holster and failed to verify that he had possession of it after leaving the ride car. He should be one his knees every night thanking that kid and lady that they were responsible enough to fix his mistake without injury.

Disney does not perform body searches. No one would be able to get into the parks if they did (at least not after waiting in line for hours). What this man did was not criminal, he merely violated the contract he signed with Disney when he used his admission ticket and demonstrated poor personal decisionmaking (again, not a crime in Florida).

The awkward positioning necessary to get into and out of rides, the unnatural motion of some rides, and the usual clothing attire needed for WDW make concealed carry difficult. The security presence within the parks also mitigates the risk of personal attack, but there is still the walk to the car or the hotel, where attacks can and do occur. Deciding to carry places you at risk of being ejected from the parks and you have to be smart about it and weigh the risks against the benefits.

Well said. Law vs Policy.

 

[Lewisc]

Well said. Law vs Policy.

Is it legal to leave a loaded gun in a public place?
If you're not capable of maintaining possession of your gun should you be given a permit?
Suppose a kid picked up the gun thinking it was a realistic toy?

 

[ponyboy]

Is it legal to leave a loaded gun in a public place?

It would be dependent upon intent

If you're not capable of maintaining possession of your gun should you be given a permit?

I'd be willing to bet that more cops leave their guns laying around in public places, especially restrooms, than civilians. Should they not be allowed to carry guns either?

Suppose a kid picked up the gun thinking it was a realistic toy?

It could have an unfortunate ending.

 

[ChipnDale79]

I'd be willing to bet that more cops leave their guns laying around in public places, especially restrooms, than civilians. Should they not be allowed to carry guns either?

At a minimum they should be fired from their jobs....

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Texas is a strong property rights state. That's why we have a wide leeway in using deadly force to protect property in many situations. Here, it is a crime to carry a firearm onto private property against the owners wishes and rightfully so.

I don't agree with places that restrict firearm possession on their premises but it is absolutely their right to do so and their decision should be respected.

Agreed on all counts.

 

[TurkA77]

So if posting "No Guns Please" at my business stops even one person from bringing his gun inside where he might discharge it by accident, then I'm good with that.

The chances of an accidental discharge are beyond slim. Guns do not go off on their own, it's usually due to operator error. I carry a sig p229 that has no safety in an inside the waistband holster. The only way that gun is firing is if I pull the trigger. "Gun free zones" and "no guns please" signs serve one purpose, it lets criminals know where the easiest place to commit a crime is. It pretty much says there is no one here to stop you.

 

[Whatsthegoodword]

LOL. All of this whining will never change the fact that in a big crowd of people anywhere in America more than a few of them are packin' heat.

That's just a fact.

 

[martinm]

Can I ask why you carry a gun on your person?

I am a federal firearms dealer and a firearms instructor..
I carry a gun because I have to make sure my products don't get in the wrong hands.
I also live in the CA Bay Area in a very nice neighborhood where home invasion has become very popular.
I carry a gun because it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.