Greyhound Bus crash in New York

[CleveRocks]

You're driving at highway speed in an SUV; you and your passengers are properly wearing your lap belts and shoulder belts. Your vehicle for some reason goes through the guardrail and plunges down towards another concrete roadway. Do you expect to survive? Do you expect your passengers to survive? It's a horrible thought, I know, but let's be fair ....

Edd, please address this question. I'm fascinated to learn your answer. Let's compare apples to apples, rather than tug at heartstrings about us supposedly killing our children to save a nickel.

 

[CarolA]

Just a note on Atlanta. (I am watching almost NON stop coverage)

The bus driver was wearing a seatbelt. Didn't seem to help. I am not sure that seatbelts would have helped in this case. The folks that died appeared be mainly in the front of the bus which took the brunt of the impact. The bus went off the overpass at full speed (60 to 70 MHP) and crashed down onto the road. The force and garvity of the crash are more then seatbelts are designed to respond to. It's a very sad situation.

It appears the driver did not know he was on the exit ramp and just kept driving at full speed. (It can be confusing there) In that case I don't think any vehicle would be "safe". If Edd's SUV shuttle goes off an overpass that high I don't think he and his passengers walk away unharmed. Vehicles are not designed to FLY.

 

[Edd]

I have not seen the first thing about the driver wearing the seatbelt. Even Paula Zahn, the complete program did not mention the driver was wearing a seat belt, I watched the entire program. So I doubt the fact, the driver was wearing a seat belt. Funny thing though they are available on all busses to the drivers, but not the passengers.

Sure Carol, I will answer your question that Cleve posed. Yes, if I were wearing a seat belt I would expect to survive in those circumstances, but yes, also I could get killed. I have a better chance of surviving if I was wearing a seat belt. I would also expect to my passengers to have a better chance to survive than if they were not able to use seat belts. You have forgot I walked away from an accident going head-on into a cement barrier about 40 - 50 miles an hour, after being push by a tractor-trailer. I was driving a 1995 escort at the time and it was demolished. Yes, I was strapped in a seat belt, the wrecker driver took me to the closest hospital and I was ex-rayed for injuries, but received only bruises across my chest and waist that resembled where the seatbelt was strained. I am sure there are many similar stories in the many accidents that seat belts have been involved in.

We are again talking about preventing deaths. If 1 person was saved in the 3 or 4 accidents mentioned on this thread where about (I didn't go back and count) 15 people were killed, I think seatbelts would have been worth the consideration or even mandated.

I think that "tugging at heartstrings about you supposedly killing your children to save a nickel" now is a helluva lot better than crying with you, should you lose part of your family in the future because you were afraid to speak out against a segment of transportation that is to cheap to provide adequate protection for you and your family in the event of a misjudgement of one of their employees in the operation of one of their vehicles. Seat belts save lives. The airlines industry admits it, because their planes do not move on the ground until everyone is buckled up. Their vehicles are three times bigger than a normal bus and probably travel half the speed on the tarmac (20 - 30 miles per hour). Private transportation admits it, seatbelts save lives and the state governments mandate seat belts.

Bus transportation is dying, along with passenger trains, and they fight any attempts by anyone to mandate them to spend extra revenue to make their vehicles safer. Do you wonder why they are now mainly used in short trips or situations where they are not required to get their speed up to 60 - 70 miles per hour. How many baseball teams will be flying to Florida next year over this one accident. Buffington will be paying dearly for their decision to hire a bus company to transport their team to Florida. At the Sanford Airport yesterday afternoon I saw a whole baseball team come in from Ohio, by plane, for spring training.

Maybe if some of you out there start screaming to Disney you need seat belts and baby seats on those busses, to take their free transportation, they will respond, I noticed that Tyler mentioned that Van Hool, the maker of the busses, is offering seat belts as an option on the busses they build. Tyler said 2007, but I believe seat belts have been an option in the past because I saw an article that suggested it would run the price of the bus up another $20000. to pick up that option. Maybe not or maybe I saw that from another bus maker.

 

[seashoreCM]

Let's say there was no ME to take 150,000 people to WDW. Yes there would be (there was) Mears' regular shuttle but that is a bus of similar appearance.

As far as safer alternatives go, is anybody afraid of rogue drivers? Sensational headlines about bus crashes come out in the news every once in awhile, but I also see in more obscure websites (elliott.org and flyertalk.com for example) complaints about being ripped off by a taxi driver.

It'll need a poll question, too off topic for this thread, to get an idea of whether a mother with two kids or a couple from a different country has more reason to feel intimidated in a taxi compared with three men in business suits.

 

[Edd]

You don't get the point. There can be a Disney Magical Express. It is part of the transportation theme at Orlando International Airport. It just needs to be safer because it transports precious cargo to WDW.

You are trying to deflect the main question. Why don't the busses have seat belts.

You don't have to ride in the taxis because you have rental cars if you are scared you are going to meet a disgusting driver or a driver that will rip you off. The chances of meeting or getting one of a disgusting drivers is slim and if you feel you get in the cab with one of them you could request another taxi or that you be taken back to the airport and board another with no extra charge.

So get back to the topic of people getting killed possible because they were not provided the chance to use a seat belt, which has proven to be a great deterent to the loss of life in the past.

 

[CarolA]

Edd,
Just an FYI. I didn't ask a question.

I live in Atlanta and this accident is all over our news, but just to give you some food for thought. Not too long ago here there was a car that did the same type of thing (different overpass) Driver died.....

 

[CleveRocks]

Edd, we may have been talking about two different issues here. Do I think buses would be safer than they are now if they had passenger seatbelts? Of course!

But right now, do I feel safer unbelted in a huge bus, or belted in a car or SUV? I'd feel safer unbelted in the huge bus. Physics beats rhetoric.

I truly believe that instead of the recent tragic bus accident if there were some freak accident where 6 SUVs carrying 35 seat belted passengers/drivers drove at full speed off a highway and plunged 30 feet onto another concrete road surface, there would be more deaths than just one per vehicle (6 total).

 

[Edd]

Cleve,

I think the huge airplane, all passengers using seat belts, taxiing out against the 1/3 size of the bus, beats your physics argument. They are concerned for passenger safety. At least the planes equip their seats with seat belts to be used taxiing, landing and departing. Also for rough air. Otherwise seat belts are not needed.

I am talking about the number of people that are killed, even though it is a small number, when a seat belt is not made available for the use of the passenger even though seat belts have proven they save lives. A holiday is not a great vacation when you lose half your family and spend time in a hospital. I am looking for extra protection if that bus crashes. I think that protection should be provided if it is out there. Seat belts are out there, Disney/Mears has plenty of money and can get their busses equipped. Maybe someday you guys arriving in Florida will have more protection from a possible accident.

I just wrote CNN. today, on the situation. Maybe they will come down and do a story on the 100 busses, not equipped with seat belts and passengers are told to put the baby seats in the luggage compart and hold your baby on your lap, leaving MCO everyday packed full of passengers looking for a great vacation at WDW.

 

[CleveRocks]

I am talking about the number of people that are killed, even though it is a small number, when a seat belt is not made available for the use of the passenger even though seat belts have proven they save lives. A holiday is not a great vacation when you lose half your family and spend time in a hospital. I am looking for extra protection if that bus crashes. I think that protection should be provided if it is out there. Seat belts are out there, Disney/Mears has plenty of money and can get their busses equipped. Maybe someday you guys arriving in Florida will have more protection from a possible accident.

But your entire entrance to reopen this thread was the recent bus accident. You are implying that one is safer in a smaller vehicle with seat belts than in a larger vehicle without. So I asked the question about seat-belted SUV occupants going over a guardrail at speed and crashing 30 feet below, and you have yet to address that. Answering that question would be comparing apples to apples.

I agree with you that seatbelts on a bus would be safer than no seatbelts on a bus. I'm not arguing that point. I'm doubting your comparison between unbelted busers and belted SUVers plunging 30 feet down. Which group would you rather be in?

As for airplanes, the most pressing reason for the lap belts is to keep people from literally flying up out of their seats and hitting their heads in the event of turbulence. That's why they are only lap belts and not three-point restraints with shoulder harnesses, because the single shoulder harness doesn't substantially help to keep someone's butt from flying upwards out of the seat -- the lap belt does a fine job of that.

I just wrote CNN. today, on the situation. Maybe they will come down and do a story on the 100 busses, not equipped with seat belts and passengers are told to put the baby seats in the luggage compart and hold your baby on your lap, leaving MCO everyday packed full of passengers looking for a great vacation at WDW.

Sounds like a good idea. Some unbiased investigative reporting is good for all involved.

 

[Edd]

Cleve,

I answered your question. I think I would have a better chance of survival strapped in a seatbelt than not strapped in a seat belt in the situation presented. If I go over a guardrail and down 30 feet I would like to be strapped in the vehicle I am going down in. There may be situations where you would be safer in a smaller vehicle than a larger one, but I wasn't really trying to imply that. In fact, I read over what I wrote and I am not inclined to think that way. The only thing that I may have implied is that bus riders may be cheated out of an extra step in safety because they are not provided with seat belts, which I feel saves lives where ever they are used.

Turbulence is not the main reason for seat belts in a plane or they wouldn't require you to buckle them when you land or take off. The belts stop you from getting thrown out of the seat in case you have problems taking off or landing. I happen to be knowledgeable about that.

 

[CarolA]

From this morning's Atlanta Journal. That seatbelt might have killed you......

'Being ejected probably saved his life'

Allen Slabaugh was tossed through the broken windshield of the bus. It was fortunate for him.
The Bluffton University sophomore was one of four passengers-two students, two assistant coaches- thrown from the bus after the impact with a concerte wall and before it fell off the bridge back onto I-75. The four survived without serious injuires.
"The doctor said being ejected probably saved his life" said Stabaugh's father, Chester. Most of the six killed and those with the worst injuries sat up front as the bus escentally had a head-on collison at highway speed with the short concrete wall.
"[Allen]was in the fourth row, and the other student [who was ejected] was in the third: the other two sitting next to them were killed," said chester Slabuagh. "The coaches went out the window first. They were more beat up."

 

[Edd]

I can understand why the people in the front died. I have a friend who drives for Mears and he showed me the brand new DCL bus. By the way, Tyler, they were not ordered with seat belts.

They are beautiful busses and this one smelled like a brand new vehicle. It is really nice. However, in a head on the people up front would fly right out the windshield or through the windshield if it was not broken. I sat in one of the seats and they are so stramlined that I could not find anything to hold on, should someone try to pull me out of the seat. The seats don't seem to be very high where I could duck forward and kind of pin myself in that space should something happen. So now I am going to answer Cleve's question.

I would rather go over a 30 foot embamkment strapped in a seat belt in an SUV than not strapped in a seatbelt in a bus. There is to much room to bounce around, because you were not strapped in, on the bus. If the seat belt and the seats hold in an SUV, I am sure you would have a chance for survival. I don't see that in the bus.