GRAND OPENING - GRAND CLOSING (Florida)

[GreatLakes]

Wait, but if no COVID cases have been tied to any of these things, why would we keep them closed? Same goes for beaches and parks. I think there is a line where decisions to close things are being based on "misery loves company" rather than actual science. I for one, got my first haircut in over 3 months last week. I was the only one there and the hairdresser and I both wore masks. There was ZERO chance of either of us transmitting COVID. She seemed fine staying home and collecting her COVID check from the government (could be she was joking though). Personally, as a taxpayer and a guy who really needed a haircut, I'd rather pay her to cut my hair.

That one interaction has shown no proven cases of transmission. I find it hard to believe that not a single person in this entire country caught Covid from a hair cut.

The bottom line is the less we interact with people the less it will spread so outside of absolute necessities that will kill you without them we shouldn't be interacting.

 

[sam_gordon]

The bottom line is the less we interact with people the less it will spread so outside of absolute necessities that will kill you without them we shouldn't be interacting.

Until when? A vaccine? And if we never get one?

ETA: I don't think anyone is forcing you to interact with others. If you feel safer hunkered down, go for it.

 

[Jrb1979]

Things have opened here where I live too and our cases haven't skyrocketed from it. Safe reopening is working here. Difference is our theme parks aren't open and indoor seating at restaurants is not an option. If our numbers stay as low as they have then our theme parks can possibly open. People are going out more here and following all social distancing guidelines for the most part. An economy can function without theme parks for a little while longer. I have always been against theme parks opening this soon.

I ask why can't that work for Florida? Our percent positive from last week was 1%.

 

[GreatLakes]

Until when? A vaccine? And if we never get one?

ETA: I don't think anyone is forcing you to interact with others. If you feel safer hunkered down, go for it.

Indefinitely. You don't set dates, you open based on the current state of increased transmission. When you feel confident you can go to the next phase of opening you do so and then stay there until you know that phase isn't causing a significant increase in new infections.

Then, after you have waited long enough you go to the next phase and repeat. You could be in a phase for two or three months. Setting a date means you have pressure to hit that date. If you don't set a date and base it on statistics you let the math decide. It sure beats opening just to close again. A longer initial closing window is better than intermittent shorter windows.

Letting each person choose is no good. It has to be societal. Some percentage of the population going to summer parties is not going to stop this disease in its tracks.

 

[wombat_5606]

Until when? A vaccine? And if we never get one?

Until we get herd immunity, if that happens. Until we discover if you got a mild case you have some sort of immunity to the more serious version and we can all live with that. Until we give science and the medical community the time to find out how we can all live with this virus.

How does a small business operate if they have 10 employees and one gets Covid? Then everyone that has had close contact with that employee has to quarantine for 2 weeks. How's that business going to survive that, possibly every week or 2 losing 2-3 employees each time?

I don't have the answers, but I'm pretty confident letting everything go back to like it's December 2019, isn't going to work.

 

[RamblingMad]

Until we get herd immunity, if that happens. Until we discover if you got a mild case you have some sort of immunity to the more serious version and we can all live with that. Until we give science and the medical community the time to find out how we can all live with this virus.

How does a small business operate if they have 10 employees and one gets Covid? Then everyone that has had close contact with that employee has to quarantine for 2 weeks. How's that business going to survive that, possibly every week or 2 losing 2-3 employees each time?

I don't have the answers, but I'm pretty confident letting everything go back to like it's December 2019, isn't going to work.

That’s what we’re trying to figure out at work. How to deal with the constant closing and reopening.

 

[sam_gordon]

Indefinitely. You don't set dates, you open based on the current state of increased transmission. When you feel confident you can go to the next phase of opening you do so and then stay there until you know that phase isn't causing a significant increase in new infections.

Then, after you have waited long enough you go to the next phase and repeat. You could be in a phase for two or three months.

Letting each person choose is no good. It has to be societal. Some percentage of the population going to summer parties is not going to stop this disease in its tracks.

Make up your mind. In the post I quoted, you said "outside of absolute necessities that will kill you without them we shouldn't be interacting." Now you're saying it's ok to open (at least in limited capacity).

 

[sam_gordon]

How does a small business operate if they have 10 employees and one gets Covid? Then everyone that has had close contact with that employee has to quarantine for 2 weeks. How's that business going to survive that, possibly every week or 2 losing 2-3 employees each time?

You figure out the minimum people required per shift. Then you keep people on the same shift so they're interacting with the same people. Presumably if one comes down with Covid, someone on the other shift wouldn't have been in contact with them. And, if one gets covid, everyone on that shift gets tested, possibly multiple times. Then you don't quarantine.

I don't have the answers, but I'm pretty confident letting everything go back to like it's December 2019, isn't going to work.

Good thing I didn't advocate that then.

 

[GreatLakes]

Make up your mind. In the post I quoted, you said "outside of absolute necessities that will kill you without them we shouldn't be interacting." Now you're saying it's ok to open (at least in limited capacity).

No, it isn't ok to open yet. Our current phase should only absolute necessities that will kill you without them. That is the phase we are in and should stay in that phase indefinitely. When we see new cases decrease day over day and over a series of time then, and only then, do we go to the next phase and wait. If cases spike then we moved too quickly. If after a significant amount of time they don't then we move to the next phase.

Base openings on rate of increase, not set dates or milestones. Let the math do the work.

 

[sam_gordon]

No, it isn't ok to open yet. Our current phase should only absolute necessities that will kill you without them. That is the phase we are in and should stay in that phase indefinitely. When we see new cases decrease day over day and over a series of time then, and only then, do we go to the next phase and wait. If cases spike then we moved too quickly. If after a significant amount of time they don't then we move to the next phase.

Base openings on rate of increase, not set dates or milestones. Let the math do the work.

First, you do realize there are places currently with no spike in numbers (my state being one, knock on wood).
Second, weren't most of the states who are spiking now having low numbers when they opened?

Do I think certain states should fall back on how "open" they are? Yes.
Do I think certain states (at least) should require masks/shields indoors? Yes.
Do I think that needs to apply to ALL states? No.

 

[wombat_5606]

You figure out the minimum people required per shift. Then you keep people on the same shift so they're interacting with the same people. Presumably if one comes down with Covid, someone on the other shift wouldn't have been in contact with them. And, if one gets covid, everyone on that shift gets tested, possibly multiple times. Then you don't quarantine.


Good thing I didn't advocate that then.

You have a job where no one has contact with another single person?

Because by the time that employee is tested and it's positive, it's too late. They have already passed the virus to someone, for at least the previous 2 days

 

[wombat_5606]

First, you do realize there are places currently with no spike in numbers (my state being one, knock on wood).
Second, weren't most of the states who are spiking now having low numbers when they opened?

Do I think certain states should fall back on how "open" they are? Yes.
Do I think certain states (at least) should require masks/shields indoors? Yes.
Do I think that needs to apply to ALL states? No.

So, what makes your state different? Why do you think your state hasn't had a spike?

 

[Lumpy1106]

A couple of articles from the west coast from today;
Wearing a mask = FREEDOM!
A Distinct Pattern of Transmission has Emerged
Conclusion; the surest way to get COVID is to stay home...and invite some friends over.

 

[sam_gordon]

You have a job where no one has contact with another single person?

Because by the time that employee is tested and it's positive, it's too late. They have already passed the virus to someone, for at least the previous 2 days

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. You said if a business has 10 employees, and one person comes down with COVID, then the other 9 would have to quarantine. I was saying if that's the case, find the minimum number of people for a shift, and they work together, and they only work with each other. Maybe you have three shifts of three, I don't know. And employees clean before/after their shifts. Then, if one person finds out they're positive, it's the other two who need to quarantine/test.

So, what makes your state different? Why do you think your state hasn't had a spike?

I don't know. Based on when I've been out (limited), mask usage is maybe 30-40%. We just started Phase 3 yesterday. Don't get me wrong, I get how lucky we are. Why it's worked that way, I don't know. Maybe we did a harsher shutdown quicker? Maybe we waited a little longer to open? Maybe we don't have as many people travelling (although I heard a group of people went to Myrtle Beach a couple of weeks ago and brought it back).

DW and I have gone out to eat three times this month (in actual restaurants). Tables have been separated, employees were wearing masks and gloves. We're not drinkers, so I couldn't tell you what the bar scene is like.

 

[Southernmiss]

I got a haircut yesterday at my usual locally owned walk in place. All of the stylists were sitting in their chairs talking and on their phones when I arrived. No other customers were there.

All of us had on masks. I had to handsanitize at the door and the stylist did too.

Every other chair was used.

Was a little uneasy as the stylist had to be so close and she said it made her a little nervous, too knowing Covid cases are rising in our county.

She said there was a rush of people when they first reopened, but once those eager to get a cut subsided, their business has been dead.

I was there at 4 yesterday. She had only had a handful of clients.

Getting a haircut was a lot better than the 2 ladies breathing on my shoulder at the meat counter at Sam's on Sunday without their masks and no one minding social distancing.

 

[fla4fun]

Don't most supermarkets have self checkout these days? Even Target and Wal Mart have this. I haven't had an interaction with a checker or bagger in 3 months.

My Publix store does not have self checkout, but it’s right next to a huge retirement community and the retirees seem to prefer dealing with a person to dealing with a machine. They also like to go inside the bank instead of using the ATM. I couldn’t tell you if my local Target or Walmart have them, as I usually shop those stores online. Mask use is pretty good here though, and with the plexiglass in place, I have felt safe enough going to the grocery.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Public transportation is one of the things I think should be shut down until a much later phase. It is useless to have social distancing and then pack people into subway cars and buses.



This is why I think the not truly essential places like hair stylists should remain closed and the actually essential places should change their business model to have the least employee/customer interaction possible. The place I grocery shop allows you to scan and bag your items as you go, pay at an untended station, and leave the store without any interaction what so ever with anyone. Obviusly there are other people in there but no one is physically touching every single item I bought to bag them. If people all bagged their own groceries, provided they were physically able, it would cut down on any interaction. If restaurants were carry out only with minimal staff and let you pay in advance and get your food without physical interaction that is one less contact point.

There are ways to still conduct essential business and mitigate the stranger interactions and it probably needs to happen at least another few months if not into 2021.

Disney should definitly not open and neither should any other theme/amusement park. Cedar Point as an example should just open for 2021. That is really the only safe option.

All of this will be hard but it is the right thing to do. Short term sacrifice for a long term better outcome. Jobs come and go, the economy cycles, death is forever.

Many of these "non essential businesses" are essential to the people who work there and/or own them. Many people practice infection control/precautions EVERY day COVID or not. Instead of instilling fear and creating hysteria TEACH folks how to use realistic measures. Hiding in our basements until the next virus surfaces isn't reasonable of healthy

 

[jlwhitney]

Things have opened here where I live too and our cases haven't skyrocketed from it. Safe reopening is working here. Difference is our theme parks aren't open and indoor seating at restaurants is not an option. If our numbers stay as low as they have then our theme parks can possibly open. People are going out more here and following all social distancing guidelines for the most part. An economy can function without theme parks for a little while longer. I have always been against theme parks opening this soon.

I ask why can't that work for Florida? Our percent positive from last week was 1%.

Florida was decreasing/staying the same all through May, cases didn't go up till the bars opened.

 

[wenrob]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. You said if a business has 10 employees, and one person comes down with COVID, then the other 9 would have to quarantine. I was saying if that's the case, find the minimum number of people for a shift, and they work together, and they only work with each other. Maybe you have three shifts of three, I don't know. And employees clean before/after their shifts. Then, if one person finds out they're positive, it's the other two who need to quarantine/test.

What you describe here is similar to the plan my DH’s plant has. These guys already work rotating shifts so you have three guys who work day shift (12 hours) for four days and another crew who works three nights shifts (12 hours) with each of them having off 1, 3, 4 or 7 days depending on the week so you only have crews interacting briefly with each other when they exchange day for night. They’ll go a couple weeks without ever seeing the other set of crews. That’s their normal everyday. When things closed up they had trailers brought onto the property and the plan was (still is if things get too bad) was to have two shifts stay onsite for two weeks, swap out with the next two shifts and be off for two weeks. This way if someone got sick they could quarantine and still have an able crew on deck.

 

[wombat_5606]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. You said if a business has 10 employees, and one person comes down with COVID, then the other 9 would have to quarantine. I was saying if that's the case, find the minimum number of people for a shift, and they work together, and they only work with each other. Maybe you have three shifts of three, I don't know. And employees clean before/after their shifts. Then, if one person finds out they're positive, it's the other two who need to quarantine/test.

I don't know. Based on when I've been out (limited), mask usage is maybe 30-40%. We just started Phase 3 yesterday. Don't get me wrong, I get how lucky we are. Why it's worked that way, I don't know. Maybe we did a harsher shutdown quicker? Maybe we waited a little longer to open? Maybe we don't have as many people travelling (although I heard a group of people went to Myrtle Beach a couple of weeks ago and brought it back).

DW and I have gone out to eat three times this month (in actual restaurants). Tables have been separated, employees were wearing masks and gloves. We're not drinkers, so I couldn't tell you what the bar scene is like.

I think you misunderstood me, too. I didn't say all 9 would need to be quarantined, just whoever they came in close contact with. For instance, where my daughter works, they have 100 employees but she never has any contact with probably 90 of them.

In fact, my daughter's employer did something similar to what you propose, but they found it didn't work very well. Not because employees got sick, but because they didn't take into account that one critical employee was furloughed, my daughter. They tried to limp along because she didn't have seniority but they ended up having to call her back to work.

Your proposal sounds good and makes sense, but I don't see every employer being able to operate under those circumstances, not at full capacity, especially when the infection rate is high, like most of the states right now. So, the phased openings make the most sense. Open and see what happens. If it's all good, open some more.

Actually, infection rate may be what is helping your state. If people stayed home fairly well at first and didn't let the virus spread too much, then when you opened there isn't much virus to spread. City size and population density makes a difference too.

We are having a problem with people going on vacation to states where the virus is crazy. They've brought it home and now we have a cluster of cases caused by those vacationers and the people they came in contact with when they got home and before they knew they were sick.

Look into Australia and New Zealand. They locked down hard and they have very few cases/deaths. With their success, they are still doing a phased opening.