GRAND OPENING - GRAND CLOSING (Florida)

[KayMichigan]

It's not really a phenomenon though. Decades ago people did participate in chicken pox parties. I'm in no way comparing the two (chicken pox and coronavirus) but it's not the first time people would have intentionally gathered together in order to catch something. What I think could be worse on an ethical level is that chicken pox parties were really the parents who did this, even though judgement is still poor (and that's putting it very mildly) at least it's the individuals choosing for themselves in this case.

I can understand that, but the people doing this need to know that this ain't chicken pox. Parents did this for chicken pox because there was no vaccine and they knew that the kids could catch it, deal with it, and get over it and not worry about catching it again.

The people throwing the COVID parties don't seem to understand that this isn't a "just catch it, have the sniffles for a few days and then you'll be fine" situation. Even if you don't die, you could end up permanently damaged. Younger people are having strokes. Some patients end up on kidney dialysis they'll need for the rest of their lives. Others still feel sick months later and aren't sure they'll ever fully recover. And immunity only lasts a few months so they can catch it again.

I heard a coroner on my local radio station the other day who said he did an autopsy on a COVID patient and said he found blood clots in every single organ in the dead person's body. He had never seen anything like that before.

Bottom line, people need to fear and respect this illness, not throw parties to try to catch it. But it sounds like they'll have to learn that the hard way.

 

[kymom99]

It's not really a phenomenon though. Decades ago people did participate in chicken pox parties. I'm in no way comparing the two (chicken pox and coronavirus) but it's not the first time people would have intentionally gathered together in order to catch something. What I think could be worse on an ethical level is that chicken pox parties were really the parents who did this, even though judgement is still poor (and that's putting it very mildly) at least it's the individuals choosing for themselves in this case.

People also spread aids on purpose. Although I doubt the people who contracted it did do willingly.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I can understand that, but the people doing this need to know that this ain't chicken pox. Parents did this for chicken pox because there was no vaccine and they knew that the kids could catch it, deal with it, and get over it and not worry about catching it again.

The people throwing the COVID parties don't seem to understand that this isn't a "just catch it, have the sniffles for a few days and then you'll be fine" situation. Even if you don't die, you could end up permanently damaged. Younger people are having strokes. Some patients end up on kidney dialysis they'll need for the rest of their lives. Others still feel sick months later and aren't sure they'll ever fully recover. And immunity only lasts a few months so they can catch it again.

I heard a coroner on my local radio station the other day who said he did an autopsy on a COVID patient and said he found blood clots in every single organ in the dead person's body. He had never seen anything like that before.

Bottom line, people need to fear and respect this illness, not throw parties to try to catch it. But it sounds like they'll have to learn that the hard way.

There's no vaccine for coronavirus either. I'm not trying to pin one choice better than the other in terms of what would you like to get. Although I'm not sure you bolster your argument, and I mean that respectively, by brushing off chicken pox. It's not have the sniffles (relatively speaking due to what chicken pox is) for a few days and you'll be fine either. Before a vaccine (which I was born before it happened, had the chicken pox before the vaccine was around) chicken pox wasn't some small thing either. It resulted in hospitalizations, deaths and children were so disproportionately affected (even if it didn't cause deaths as much as those who were infants) which is why I said on the ethical front, the children couldn't speak for themselves.

But really all of that isn't what I was going for (because I didn't want to make it a comparison between which is worse medically speaking-wise). I was just saying it's not new that people have gotten together to do something like this. It may look and be incredibly stupid and I'm sure it was back then for chicken pox too.

I don't disagree with respecting the illness either but I think that goes for a lot of illnesses out there. We didn't learn though with chicken pox parties in that social, ethical and morally speaking that's not something to do. Our issues tend to stem from short-term memories although given that the vaccine for chicken pox has been around since the mid-90s it may be a distant or no memory at all for some.

 

[KayMichigan]

You're right, and I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make light of chicken pox as I know it could cause complications. The 'sniffles' quote was more directed at what some people seem to think COVID is, and how catching it isn't any worse than a regular flu.

In any case they need to stop with the stupid parties!!

 

[aggiedog]

To be fair, chickenpox in young children is generally much milder than if you catch it as an adult. Parents who did chickenpox parties, or simply "let's have you go sleep over with Annie tonight" were doing it in young children so the risk to that same child would be less as they aged. In an era of no vaccine, no antivirals, and limited medical care, it could be considered best practice.

Covid parties are adults deciding to have a little fun. Some were putting money in a pot and the first to get the disease wins. Totally different concept.

I do think this stems from living in a society that has mostly stamped out disease with vaccines and medical care. If you've never had a childhood friend or family member die or be left with a permanent medical condition or even just get deathly ill before finally recuperating, you don't take illness serious. I have patients that got polio, congenital rubella, or meningicoccemia as children. It didn't go well for them, though they all lived. All are seriously impaired as adults.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

To be fair, chickenpox in young children is generally much milder than if you catch it as an adult. Parents who did chickenpox parties, or simply "let's have you go sleep over with Annie tonight" were doing it in young children so the risk to that same child would be less as they aged. In an era of no vaccine, no antivirals, and limited medical care, it could be considered best practice.

Covid parties are adults deciding to have a little fun. Some were putting money in a pot and the first to get the disease wins. Totally different concept.

I do think this stems from living in a society that has mostly stamped out disease with vaccines and medical care. If you've never had a childhood friend or family member die or be left with a permanent medical condition or even just get deathly ill before finally recuperating, you don't take illness serious. I have patients that got polio, congenital rubella, or meningicoccemia as children. It didn't go well for them, though they all lived. All are seriously impaired as adults.

I don't think we need to rationalize intentionally allowing people to catch something by saying this this and this about it. I mean if you want to go for it but it's the same thing just people trying to say "this is worse because of this this and this" when both stem from the same main complaint of putting people together to intentionally catch something. Anyways moving on wasn't my intent to get into a discussion over which was worse chicken pox or coronavirus; that's too eerily similar to the flu vs coronavirus discussions of the early days.

But I don't honestly disagree with your last paragraph; that might be pretty important to how we view risk evaluation in our day to day lives.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You're right, and I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make light of chicken pox as I know it could cause complications. The 'sniffles' quote was more directed at what some people seem to think COVID is, and how catching it isn't any worse than a regular flu.

In any case they need to stop with the stupid parties!!

Oh you're fine really! I wasn't trying to come off as harsh either truly I agree the parties should stop that's for darn sure!

 

[aggiedog]

No, I'm not condoning the Covid parties at all, I just have a professional interest in historical medicine and putting the concept in context. A chickenpox party now would be a terrible idea. One hundred years ago, not so much. I just wish all these people ignoring medical advice would get themselves into this century as well!

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

No, I'm not condoning the Covid parties at all, I just have a professional interest in historical medicine and putting the concept in context. A chickenpox party now would be a terrible idea. One hundred years ago, not so much. I just wish all these people ignoring medical advice would get themselves into this century as well!

I'm not talking a hundred years ago and I'm not sure why you would assume that. I'm talking the 80s and 90s. I know that may seem like a long time ago but it's not really.

A chickenpox party would be a terrible idea now considering we have an effective vaccine widely available....

Either way back to FL

 

[gwynne]

I'm not talking a hundred years ago and I'm not sure why you would assume that. I'm talking the 80s and 90s. I know that may seem like a long time ago but it's not really.

A chickenpox party would be a terrible idea now considering we have an effective vaccine widely available....

Either way back to FL

I believe they were giving historical context.

Edited to add: I read your continued comments below.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I believe they were giving historical context.

I totally got that. Their comment was: "A chickenpox party now would be a terrible idea. One hundred years ago, not so much." When I brought up the parties I wasn't speaking towards a time when few people are still alive from back then. Medical knowledge was not the same at all back in ~1920. The same can't be said for more recent times. So while the reason may be historically relevant if speaking 100 years ago that same reason would not have fully stood when talking about the 1980s and the 1990s which is much more recent in time. A chickenpox party was still a terrible idea in the 80s and 90s and we judge people (rightfully so) with respects to present parties not realizing it wasn't all that long ago people did the same thing just for a different illness. My initial comment was strictly and only speaking about that, not about severity of illnesses

Last on that topic for me respectfully so we can get back to FL

 

[mom2aandj]

Deaths are always a lagging indicator. With the numbers Fl has been seeing, expect that to continue to climb. It's why the hospitals there are yelling to to rootops right now.

Are they? This article indicates the CEO of a large hospital system in Florida understands the seriousness of the situation but feels they are prepared to handle it :

AdventHealth's CEO Terry Shaw said their ICU capacities across their hospital system are running about 85 to 90 percent capacity. Shaw said they're prepared to make more space if they need more ICU beds across their 30 Florida facilities....Shaw added ICU length of stay for coronavirus and the death rate have each dropped in half.

"We have adequate personal protective equipment," Shaw said. "We have a stockpile of ventilators, and we have an amazing clinical team that have taken best practices from around the world and put them into our treatment protocols."

Also, Shaw said AdventHealth also just got another shipment of the drug remdisivir in from the state, which helps treat coronavirus complications.
https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2020/07/13/advent-health-ceo--orange-county-icu-s-prepared

 

[tippity]

Are they? This article indicates the CEO of a large hospital system in Florida understands the seriousness of the situation but feels they are prepared to handle it :

AdventHealth's CEO Terry Shaw said their ICU capacities across their hospital system are running about 85 to 90 percent capacity. Shaw said they're prepared to make more space if they need more ICU beds across their 30 Florida facilities....Shaw added ICU length of stay for coronavirus and the death rate have each dropped in half.

"We have adequate personal protective equipment," Shaw said. "We have a stockpile of ventilators, and we have an amazing clinical team that have taken best practices from around the world and put them into our treatment protocols."

Also, Shaw said AdventHealth also just got another shipment of the drug remdisivir in from the state, which helps treat coronavirus complications.
https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2020/07/13/advent-health-ceo--orange-county-icu-s-prepared

That's what I'm seeing in AZ too. The hospitals have not moved into surge mode. And according to T-gen, the virus in AZ is the one from Italy, which is supposed to be far more contagious but not as deadly as the Wuhan strain. I hope it's true.

 

[RamblingMad]

That's what I'm seeing in AZ too. The hospitals have not moved into surge mode. And according to T-gen, the virus in AZ is the one from Italy, which is supposed to be far more contagious but not as deadly as the Wuhan strain. I hope it's true.

I know a nurse here in AZ that’s been operating at surge capacity for the last two weeks. The hospital is at 120% capacity with 40% of the patients having COVID. It doesn’t help that it’s ridiculously hot right now.

 

[KayMichigan]

Oh you're fine really! I wasn't trying to come off as harsh either truly I agree the parties should stop that's for darn sure!

It's all cool!

 

[Christine]

That's what I'm seeing in AZ too. The hospitals have not moved into surge mode. And according to T-gen, the virus in AZ is the one from Italy, which is supposed to be far more contagious but not as deadly as the Wuhan strain. I hope it's true.

Interesting about the Europe strain. That's what New York had and I swear I thought that one was more deadly than the original Wuhan strain but I may be all mixed up now.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

That's what I'm seeing in AZ too. The hospitals have not moved into surge mode. And according to T-gen, the virus in AZ is the one from Italy, which is supposed to be far more contagious but not as deadly as the Wuhan strain. I hope it's true.

I thought it was the opposite? That the strand from Italy was more deadly. It's why NY got hit so hard and the West Coast didn't?

 

[onatrek]

Article from 3 days ago about the AZ Covid strain:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...oronavirus-strain-more-infectious/5410710002/
Article discussion the dangers of trying to read things into the various Covid strains because (at least when it was written) stating that earlier on in a disease, it's really often the way the disease naturally morphs, basically, as it infects individuals and then changes along the way, and that it takes much longer for true actual 'strains' to really happen.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/05/coronavirus-strains-transmissible/611239/

 

[cakebaker]

To be fair, chickenpox in young children is generally much milder than if you catch it as an adult. Parents who did chickenpox parties, or simply "let's have you go sleep over with Annie tonight" were doing it in young children so the risk to that same child would be less as they aged. In an era of no vaccine, no antivirals, and limited medical care, it could be considered best practice.

Let me dispel the notion that parents had chicken pox parties because it was best practice.

As a parent of what were 8yr old twins back in the 80’s, I’m familiar with the practice. I was aghast at the idea back then. Parents did it to just get it over with because it was so catchy, but especially with other kids in the family. When it was going around then, I refused to let my girls do it. Even when one of them did catch it, I tried my best to keep the other kid from catching it. I failed, but not for lack of trying. It was always an awful idea.

And just as an aside, one of them now has shingles. The other is going for a vaccination.

Oh and our covid cases doubled today- no massive increase of tests either.

Back to covid for me....

 

[Pyotr]

It turns out there are errors in Florida's test reporting. Smaller labs have only been reporting positive results. This is one possible explanation of the high positive rate.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/f...s-have-not-reported-negative-covid-19-results