Going to see Elder Attorney... Help me with the questions I need to ask..

[skeeter31]

Here are a couple of things I picked up when facing the same situation.

Your parents can each gift each of you $15,000 per year without tax penalty. this includes your children. Therefore, your father and mother each give you and your husband $15K, that is $60K per year.

BUT... when it comes to medicaid. there is a five year lookback. Essentially, people are expected to use their own money for care and when it runs out, they become eligible for medicaid. Medicaid is medical support for people without money.

Medicaid will look at your parents finances going back five years and if there was money that they gave away to hide it, there will be an elimination period before care is given. So, if they gave you $1,000 last year, and the nursing facility costs $1,ooo a month, your parent would be required to wait one month before entering the nursing home.

Mom moved in with me and the house needed to be remodeled to fit her needs. Instead of her giving me cash and me using that to pay the contractor, I had her pay the contractor directly because money she spent on herself was not included in the five year lookback. I don't know if that plan would have worked because mom didn't end up needing medicaid but that was what was recommended to me.

My mother was widowed so I did not have to worry about the spouse but there are protections in place so that a spouse does not end up on the street.

Please join the caregiver forum at https://www.agingcare.com/caregiver-forum. They were a lifesaver for me.

They wouldn’t need to wait to enter the NH, they would just have to pay privately for the amount of months they were being penalized for gifting during the look back period. They’re not going to make someone stay at home and have a medical issue not being able to get the care they need. Medicaid just considers any money gifted to family to be available for cost of care and calculate the penalty based on the states penalty rate.

And someone else stated that as POA your parents can give you money each month. Be very careful with that. If you don’t qualify as a disabled adult child or a true caretaker relative, you wouldn’t be able to accept cash payments, even as a POA, for skirting the Medicaid lookback. Each of those payments would count as a gift.

 

[china mom]

They wouldn’t need to wait to enter the NH, they would just have to pay privately for the amount of months they were being penalized for gifting during the look back period. They’re not going to make someone stay at home and have a medical issue not being able to get the care they need. Medicaid just considers any money gifted to family to be available for cost of care and calculate the penalty based on the states penalty rate.

That's true - if the money is still there. I used this as a threat to my mother since she was giving money to my loser brother and he was blowing it as fast as she gave it to him. I told her that if she wasn't able to self pay, and he couldn't pay...well, I told her she would be sleeping on his sofa. Cruel, but effective. She stopped giving all her money away.

 

[NannyBeBe]

Do you have a separate Durable Power of Attorney for Medical Care? If so, then I do not understand why your parents need or would want a DNR. You should be the one making an end-of-life decision for your parents, not a medical person. JMHO.

 

[Skywalker]

First, the lawyer can only serve the interests of one client -- your parents as a couple are fine, but the lawyer cannot serve both their interests and yours. That's not to say that there should or would be disregard of impact of different actions on you, but if this is going to be legal counsel for the purposes of estate planning for your parents that's whose interest the lawyer will be retained to protect.

Your parents need to be able to talk with the attorney and as clearly as possible outline what goals they're looking to achieve. Things can become problematic if clear intentions do not come from them and seem to be led by an outside force such as you. You should be prepared to be transportation only, with your parents meeting privately with the attorney to get the ball rolling. The attorney may bring you in at a certain point where your input is important regarding your agreement to accept certain responsibilities. If your parents cannot and will not be able to get the ball rolling with the attorney independently there may be some obstacles to the process.

Generally trusts are set up when assets involved reach a certain threshold. A great many people of average means are not able to utilize trusts as vehicles of estate planning for that reason.

IME the handoff of the bank funds outright will be problematic on many levels. The attorney will advise as to that. If there is to be a handoff, that is something where you may want to seek your own legal representation, both for legal and tax purposes. Depending on the laws and bank policies where your parents are it may make sense to add you to their account(s) as a convenience signer. This allows you to easily conduct their business. Sometimes banks are reluctant to be very cooperative with someone who has a POA but is not named on an account. Being named a convenience signer, or as an additional owner to the account outright, with a POA clears the path.

This is what I was going to say as well. My friend and her parents wanted to put the house in her name. The attorney made it clear he was working on behalf of the parents - he took them aside privately and questioned them about why they wanted to do this, wanting to really make sure they were not being pressured in any way. He also told them if the daughter is sued for example, they could lose their house since it is connected to her, etc. He interviewed the whole family together, then the parents as a couple, then individually, then the daughter...and in the end he suggested they not do it. Just be prepared a good attorney might question you to kingdom come lol.

 

[QueenIsabella]

When you see the elder attorney, make sure the focus is on the right thing. This is NOT about "how much can your parents give you", it's about "how can Mom and Dad provide for their own needs and comfort in their declining years, while not being a burden to their children". Parents, my own mom included tend to focus on wanting to pass on some money--it's more important that Mom and Dad get quality care as they age, and that can be expensive. But, to the "kids" (losing the term loosely, the OP is an adult), it's more important to know that Mom and Dad are safe, comfortable, and cared for. It's truly the best give the parents can give--you, the daughter, having peace of mind that they're okay. I hope the attorney can help them to see that.

I happened to come across this opinion piece today:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ahead-spend-childrens-inheritance-160019988.html

 

[barkley]

i am retired from dshs. one of the jobs i held was as supervisor of a medicaid unit. based on that and my own experiences dealing with 2 sets of parents who lived in states dh and i did not-

lots of good information being offered by others on this thread BUT-there are federal AND state medicaid rules so it's VITAL to meet with an elder law attorney versed in laws for both states you are looking at b/c what you set up in one state could make a parent entirely ineligible for their lifetime in another (i've seen it happen with trusts-very tragic). the lawyer also needs to be versed in medicare regulations and how each state's individual programs/plans work (states have to meet the fed minimum standards but some programs are better than others state to state and you've only got a certain timeline to enroll once you move to that new state-a medicare ombudsman in the state they would ultimately live in could be a great free resource of timeline planning for that).

on p.o.a.'s and such-need to find out what one state will accept from a resident of another. same with executor of an estate. my brother passed in another state-a state that would not allow a non resident of that state to act as executor, so yeah-you need someone who can make plans/do paperwork for now and when they move.

moving money/gifting...DON'T-i literally took a class at work called 'how to have a million dollars in assets and still qualify for medicaid'. this was back in the 90's and the dollar amounts that can be legally sheltered for a spouse if their spouse has to go into nursing care has risen tremendously. there are entirely legal ways to set up finances such that they are structured to be exempt from consideration for assistance programs. trying to get around the rules can cause a penalty (let alone prosecution) that can last years and years (i had a client who hid the fact she had inherited a home. she lived in the home so it would have been entirely exempt from consideration. when it was discovered that she owned it but had not disclosed it on her paperwork/reported it-she was determined to have committed welfare fraud and made ineligible to the medicaid program in that state for over 10 years).

 

[Welsh_Dragon]

trying to get them to understand

Do they have capacity to independently understand, weigh up, make decisions regarding specific issues? If not, maybe it is already too late.

 

[LovesTimone]

Last time I checked the primary residence limit was $585K in Florida for Medicaid.

Well we don't have to worry about hitting that number... for medicaid...

 

[LovesTimone]

i am retired from dshs. one of the jobs i held was as supervisor of a medicaid unit. based on that and my own experiences dealing with 2 sets of parents who lived in states dh and i did not-

lots of good information being offered by others on this thread BUT-there are federal AND state medicaid rules so it's VITAL to meet with an elder law attorney versed in laws for both states you are looking at b/c what you set up in one state could make a parent entirely ineligible for their lifetime in another (i've seen it happen with trusts-very tragic). the lawyer also needs to be versed in medicare regulations and how each state's individual programs/plans work (states have to meet the fed minimum standards but some programs are better than others state to state and you've only got a certain timeline to enroll once you move to that new state-a medicare ombudsman in the state they would ultimately live in could be a great free resource of timeline planning for that).

on p.o.a.'s and such-need to find out what one state will accept from a resident of another. same with executor of an estate. my brother passed in another state-a state that would not allow a non resident of that state to act as executor, so yeah-you need someone who can make plans/do paperwork for now and when they move.

moving money/gifting...DON'T-i literally took a class at work called 'how to have a million dollars in assets and still qualify for medicaid'. this was back in the 90's and the dollar amounts that can be legally sheltered for a spouse if their spouse has to go into nursing care has risen tremendously. there are entirely legal ways to set up finances such that they are structured to be exempt from consideration for assistance programs. trying to get around the rules can cause a penalty (let alone prosecution) that can last years and years (i had a client who hid the fact she had inherited a home. she lived in the home so it would have been entirely exempt from consideration. when it was discovered that she owned it but had not disclosed it on her paperwork/reported it-she was determined to have committed welfare fraud and made ineligible to the medicaid program in that state for over 10 years).

Great advice... Not at all trying to do anything that could cause problems, or hide assets or anything of this nature... I want to know what the options are so that we can make the right decision for them going forward. The lawyer that we are using is very knowledgeable and has been practicing this type of law for years, and is highly recommended.. As well it's the same lawyer that my Uncle used for my Grandmother... We all live in Florida so once less issue to worry about.
Thank you for your advice... I need every bit I can get...

 

[LovesTimone]

First, the lawyer can only serve the interests of one client -- your parents as a couple are fine, but the lawyer cannot serve both their interests and yours. That's not to say that there should or would be disregard of impact of different actions on you, but if this is going to be legal counsel for the purposes of estate planning for your parents that's whose interest the lawyer will be retained to protect.

Your parents need to be able to talk with the attorney and as clearly as possible outline what goals they're looking to achieve. Things can become problematic if clear intentions do not come from them and seem to be led by an outside force such as you. You should be prepared to be transportation only, with your parents meeting privately with the attorney to get the ball rolling. The attorney may bring you in at a certain point where your input is important regarding your agreement to accept certain responsibilities. If your parents cannot and will not be able to get the ball rolling with the attorney independently there may be some obstacles to the process.

Generally trusts are set up when assets involved reach a certain threshold. A great many people of average means are not able to utilize trusts as vehicles of estate planning for that reason.

IME the handoff of the bank funds outright will be problematic on many levels. The attorney will advise as to that. If there is to be a handoff, that is something where you may want to seek your own legal representation, both for legal and tax purposes. Depending on the laws and bank policies where your parents are it may make sense to add you to their account(s) as a convenience signer. This allows you to easily conduct their business. Sometimes banks are reluctant to be very cooperative with someone who has a POA but is not named on an account. Being named a convenience signer, or as an additional owner to the account outright, with a POA clears the path.

Thanks so much...

The list is for my parents as well as myself.... so that we all have a better understanding of how everything works... This is the same attorney that drew up the will, and POA... When they made the appointment, they asked if I could accompany them, to which the attorney agree, so that I understand everything as well. So that I get the whole story, from beginning to end... I tend to ask more pointed questions, than my parents they are from that generation that seems to think asking questions is rude or something... I don't like guessing, I just want to understand so that I can do the best to take care of them. Yes I would be a convenience signer, on the accounts...

 

[LovesTimone]

That's true - if the money is still there. I used this as a threat to my mother since she was giving money to my loser brother and he was blowing it as fast as she gave it to him. I told her that if she wasn't able to self pay, and he couldn't pay...well, I told her she would be sleeping on his sofa. Cruel, but effective. She stopped giving all her money away.

Oh I totally get what your saying about your brother... Me too... enough said...

 

[LovesTimone]

Do they have capacity to independently understand, weigh up, make decisions regarding specific issues? If not, maybe it is already too late.

Yes they have the capacity to independently understand, and can make decision for them-self's, they pay their own bills, and keep track of med's, and daily living and they both are still driving, but only about a mile from their house... they have everything that they need, anything past this area, I go over and go to the doctors or store or run errands for them.. I started taking over making appointments and going with them, as they are from that generation that is like everything is fine, and not forth coming about what is really going on or happening to with them... when it's not fine... So now that I have start going to the appointment with them we are getting some where, with there healthcare... As I let them talk, then I tell the doctor what is really going on, and then they say yes this is what is happening... The issue is that they have what I call their own version of what they want to hear, and only choose to hear that. I understand that no-one wants to discuss things like this, it has to be dealt with, I want to do it now, so that when things start to happen, everything is in place..

 

[LovesTimone]

When you see the elder attorney, make sure the focus is on the right thing. This is NOT about "how much can your parents give you", it's about "how can Mom and Dad provide for their own needs and comfort in their declining years, while not being a burden to their children". Parents, my own mom included tend to focus on wanting to pass on some money--it's more important that Mom and Dad get quality care as they age, and that can be expensive. But, to the "kids" (losing the term loosely, the OP is an adult), it's more important to know that Mom and Dad are safe, comfortable, and cared for. It's truly the best give the parents can give--you, the daughter, having peace of mind that they're okay. I hope the attorney can help them to see that.

I happened to come across this opinion piece today:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ahead-spend-childrens-inheritance-160019988.html

Just for the record, I don't want anything from my parents, what I do want is them for as long as God see fit for me to have them, I want the important stuff, pictures and as many memories as I can make with them now... I want what they have worked for their whole life to go to them, and their care, quality of life, and safety... I consider this a honor that my parents are trusting me to take care of them, and make the hard decisions if and when the time comes... Oh my goodness, my parents are saying we want to leave you and your brother something, so I totally get what your saying...

 

[flyingdumbo127]

God Bless You, LovesTimone and a hug. You're a great daughter especially to be doing all you can to make your parents an active part of such a hard (for everyone) process now while all can still be a part of it. Take care!

 

[cabanafrau]

Thanks so much...

The list is for my parents as well as myself.... so that we all have a better understanding of how everything works... This is the same attorney that drew up the will, and POA... When they made the appointment, they asked if I could accompany them, to which the attorney agree, so that I understand everything as well. So that I get the whole story, from beginning to end... I tend to ask more pointed questions, than my parents they are from that generation that seems to think asking questions is rude or something... I don't like guessing, I just want to understand so that I can do the best to take care of them. Yes I would be a convenience signer, on the accounts...

I understand where you're coming from and I was not in any way implying you are doing anything wrong. Unfortunately a lot of people go into the process without understanding how much of it works and despite having good intentions things get misconstrued and twisted down the road and a lot of headaches and a lot of money is expended in needless battles with other family members.

The fact the lawyer has already worked with your parents, knows much of the situation and is familiar with the idea that your parents understand the process and are the ones bringing you into the process helps significantly. Ethical elder attorneys have their radar up and probe, ask questions and cross every T and dot every I when a family member brings in an elderly person for estate planning and seems to run the show. It seems you're well past that hurdle in your circumstances so it's likely you will be welcomed as an active participant and be able to advocate very much for your parents because the attorney knows your parents and understands their intentions already.

Your parents probably consider lawyers professionals they need to treat deferentially so they feel it's better to do exactly that, defer and assume the attorney knows best. Of course you understand that while an attorney may be very well versed in their field they don't know every detail of your parents' lives the way you do and it doesn't help if they don't get all of the information they need to fully flesh out a plan that fits a particular client. Your questions may make a very important difference in how the attorney handles certain things.

 

[KBoopaloo]

This is what I was going to say as well. My friend and her parents wanted to put the house in her name. The attorney made it clear he was working on behalf of the parents - he took them aside privately and questioned them about why they wanted to do this, wanting to really make sure they were not being pressured in any way. He also told them if the daughter is sued for example, they could lose their house since it is connected to her, etc. He interviewed the whole family together, then the parents as a couple, then individually, then the daughter...and in the end he suggested they not do it. Just be prepared a good attorney might question you to kingdom come lol.

I am the trustee of an irrevocable trust for my parents and this was also my experience. The process was initiated with the lawyer by my parents (who were maybe in their early 60s at the time?) and I was only brought in near the end after they had discussed all their intentions with the lawyer directly. They had meetings with him alone and then when it was time to move forward we had a meeting all together where the lawyer talked to me about how the arrangement would work from my perspective. Then we moved forward with drafting the trust and signing off on everything. It was also slightly less complicated because I am an only child so there was no question of one child trying to shut another child out of anything.

Anyway, this is all to say that planning for parental elder care is always so complicated and stressful and I hope the lawyer is able to help you sort it out in a way that makes sense for your family. It’s great that you’re going in with a bunch of questions to be sure you are getting all the info you need. Good luck!

 

[QueenIsabella]

Just for the record, I don't want anything from my parents, what I do want is them for as long as God see fit for me to have them, I want the important stuff, pictures and as many memories as I can make with them now... I want what they have worked for their whole life to go to them, and their care, quality of life, and safety... I consider this a honor that my parents are trusting me to take care of them, and make the hard decisions if and when the time comes... Oh my goodness, my parents are saying we want to leave you and your brother something, so I totally get what your saying...

I get that. The problem isn't generally with the helpful child, it's with either (a) the parents, who have it stuck in their head that they "need to leave something to the kids", or (b) a greedy child, who typically is nowhere to be found when there's actual work/care to be done. I had both (a) and (b) when my mom needed help--she wanted to leave her house to the kids, and my brothers were seeing dollar signs, while my poor sister was the one doing the heavy lifting (I lived 200 miles away and was very pregnant with my 4th child--I was only able to provide emotional support to my sister). Luckily, my sister had POA, etc. My brothers would have been perfectly happy, moving Mom in with Sis, who had stairs, one bathroom (upstairs), and live 50 yards from a very busy commercial strip (2 lanes in each direction). Plus, Sis works full time, so she would be leaving our demented Mom there by herself, hours at a time. Um, no! Sis found a nice residence where our mother got excellent care for the last several months of her life. Mom even ended up leaving us a little bit, only because she hadn't gone through all her savings, but I would have been fine with getting nothing, so long as she was safe and cared for.

I do wish you luck. This isn't easy. I know you're trying to do the best for them.

 

[lizziepooh]

Be sure to take information regarding the amount and source of their income as well as the value of any assets they own.

 

[LovesTimone]

Be sure to take information regarding the amount and source of their income as well as the value of any assets they own.

I have that on the top of the list, this way the attorney can see what is the best route or give us the best options. Then my parents can make their decisions.

 

[barkley]

just thought of something else-

pensions-help your parents research what type of paperwork they have to have on file with anyone who provides a pension that would enable you to contact that entity on their behalf. you would think that a valid power of attorney would work for this purpose but based on our experience dealing with 2 different public agencies our late parents received pensions from we learned that one would accept a p.o.a. but the other has their own specific p.o.a. form that has to be completed AND ACCEPTED (a process that can take up to 6 months during non covid imapacted periods). it can also be VERY helpful to get a copy of the pension details so you're aware ahead of time what benefits a survivor is eligible to, what you will need to submit on their behalf...that way there's not months of delays with no money coming in while establishing a survivor's pension.

medical stuff-medical p.o.a. and such seem to work (in my experience) well with providers BUT health insurance companies also seem to have their own forms they want completed by members that allow others to do so much as make an inquiry on their behalf (like 'why has mom's med always been covered at the reasonable copay but now it's being denied to the tune of many hundreds of dollars for a single refill?'). the insurance dh and i have as well as the one our adult dd has (different companies) both have their own forms AND they are only good for a certain period of time so i set a calendar note to myself to get new ones done about 60 days out from the expiration of the existing so there's no lapse in communication ability.