"Godless Heathens" Support thread - no bashing please :)

[JennyMominRI]

Thats terrible. No one talked about the election at my church, other than a mention in the prayers of the faithful for the candidates and the voters. There are certainly plenty of Democrats in our parish judging from the bumper stickers I've see on the cars in the parking lot! Then again, this is a town that is 95% Democrat, so I'm sure a Priest telling his congregation that voting for Kerry would have landed them in Hell would not have been well received.

We My mother and I are in the satet with the largest per capita percentage of Catholics. Rhode Island..This is a democratic state..I'm sure most of them ignored it,but my mother is very..By the book....On the other hand last summer they wanted her to sign someothing in favor of a constitutional amendment that states that Marriage was between a man and a woman..She refused to sign something that denied basic rights to a group of people

 

[barbeml]

While we're on the "good reads" tangent, I just couldn't let it pass without putting in a plug for my all-time favorite book, "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein. It's about a man that was born on Mars (stick with me for a sec), but is brought to earth in his 20's and exposed to religion for the first time. Takes a very interesting "outsiders" look at earthly religions, including quite a few very thinly veiled shots across the bows of the holier-than-thou types. Basically, the final decision that Michael (the "martian" makes) makes boils down to just three words: "Thou art god."

Seriously, if you enjoy intelligent-but-entertaining reading, I can't recommend this book highly enough. ('Course, I'd recommend just about anything by Heinlein, but that's just me )

I am a long-time Sci-Fi fan (actually, I consider most good Sci-Fi to be social fiction), but must confess I have never read "Stranger in a Strange Land." I promise I will if you read "Waiting for the Galactic Bus" and then we can discuss!

 

[alliecats]

I don't know what I am! I was raised Catholic, and my DH used to call me a cafeteria Catholic. Birth control--thumb's up! Confession--not so much (which comedian was it that said he wanted to tell the priest, "You first."??)! I have tried several Protestant churches but feel no spiritual connection in there at all.

I do believe there is a God--some days I don't see how there couldn't be a God. Other times I get mad at Him. But the problem I have is that no organized religion is going to satisfy all the things I *feel* it should. I have seen on other threads that I am not supposed to feel, think, or say this, that I should not need to reconcile what I feel & intuit to what they say actually IS.

I am curious about reincarnation. Of course, Christians do not believe in it. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. For the atheists & agnostics, what do you think happens when you die?

I stop short of saying I am an atheist, or even an agnostic. I do believe in Mary and Jesus. But there are so many things about modern Christianity that bother me. So many people who call themselves Christian are the first to despise the poor and assume they like being homeless, etc. Is that Christ-like? So many pass judgment on others who don't live up to their ideals of what a Christian should live like. Did Jesus advocate judgment? These people push me further away with every word.

I guess I will never be able to truly say I am a Christian by most people's standards, because I don't think that the Bible is the ultimate source for how we should live our lives. For one thing, EVERYONE has their own interpretation. If the Bible truly condemns people for being homosexuals, although they are born that way, made that way by God, then I can't get in line with that. If the Bible says that people who have never even heard of Christianity go to hell, no thanks to that either. If the Bible really means that animals don't have souls (how could they NOT?) then I think someone must have made a typo. I know it may be a horrible thing to say, but the Bible was written by men. Men are fallible. People put their own interpretations into it when they read it, couldn't that have happened with the writing?

That said, I want to believe, but I haven't found a way to get past these things. Both my sisters are very religious, one Catholic & the other Protestant. I guess I am the black sheep.

Anyway, this isn't very coherent. I am tired. But I know you guys aren't going to flame me for what I said (if you can even understand it).

 

[cardaway]

What about the book Contact?

I haven't read it in awhile but I remember finding an almost one for one conection with the contents of the book and how I imagine things work.

And that goes for the reaction of the deeply religious once things started looking as if they might have been at least partially wrong all along.

 

[wvrevy]

I am a long-time Sci-Fi fan (actually, I consider most good Sci-Fi to be social fiction), but must confess I have never read "Stranger in a Strange Land." I promise I will if you read "Waiting for the Galactic Bus" and then we can discuss!

You've never read Heinlein and you're a sci-fi fan ? Wow, imagine still having that in front of you Think I envy you a bit, barb...lol

Never heard of the "Galactic Bus"...I'll have to check it out (after) the Harry Potter craze wears off

 

[barbeml]

So many people who call themselves Christian are the first to despise the poor and assume they like being homeless, etc. Is that Christ-like? So many pass judgment on others who don't live up to their ideals of what a Christian should live like. Did Jesus advocate judgment? These people push me further away with every word.

So well said. I had my "light bulb moment" at around 5. I was in Sunday school and suddenly I just knew I did not believe any of it. I like to say I was born without the "dupe" gene .

However, my father and his rich conservative church-going friends would be enough to push me away today. We visited my Dad and his wife in Williamsburg last weekend. They love to talk about running to church and how all the poor Christians are persecuted today (WTH?) When they are not gloating about their moral superiority and complaining that their 3800 square-foot house has a dining room that is a foot too narrow, they are laughing about how the "undesirables" can't get into their gated community unless they are there to do the gardening, jeering at the "ugly" townhomes the "losers" live in (I live in a townhome), condemning the poor for having the bad taste to have less than they do, and blaming the liberals for everything.

My Mom is also an atheist and she is the kindest soul you could ever meet. I try to emulate her. Dad can keep his church.

 

[barbeml]

You've never read Heinlein and you're a sci-fi fan ? Wow, imagine still having that in front of you Think I envy you a bit, barb...lol

Never heard of the "Galactic Bus"...I'll have to check it out (after) the Harry Potter craze wears off

I'll be reading HP before "Stranger," no worries!

 

[wvrevy]

I'll be reading HP before "Stranger," no worries!

Ok...Just went over and looked up the "Galactic Bus" book on Amazon. Here is one of the reviews:

Waiting for the Galactic bus begins at the begining...of the human race that is. Some aliens who can exist in solid form or in energy are taking a trip around the universe, tripping all the way since they're young and want to try the latest and greatest in sensory experience through thier equivilant of drugs and extreme sports. They happen upon a planet where they spend some time drinking in the rich atmosphere and experiencing various solid forms, getting drunk on the sensations. When they're ready to leave, two brothers in thier number who are considered trouble makers and losers are too drunk and get left behind. The others decide they'll come back for them in an aeon or two, serves them right for being drunk jerks, right?

Barion and Coyul wake to find themselves alone, with nothing but the primitive life of Earth to keep them company. Since they're so bored, one decides to give self-awareness to a monkey and start a human species. His brother warns him against this, as there are serious laws against elevating species before they are prepared for it, the disasters resulting from such irresponsible advancement of a species are terrible and the punishments severe. But, since the deed's been done, might as well improve on the design, right? figures the other brother.

And so, it is the begining of all the creativity, sadness, hope, destruction, love, hate, art, and violence. Barion and Coyul soon discover that this new species just keeps going on after they die in the form of consious energy. Not quite sure what to do with them, they decide to throw them a party, and "Upstairs" and "Downstairs" develop, and religions on earth develop and influence the way the realms develop.

So, after witnessing human history, and all the violence it can produce, as well as recognising the potential, they decide to intervene to stop what could very well be the next Hitler, before he is even conceived. And here is where our human charachters enter. Charity and Roy...Roy the Nazi wanna-be, and Charity, who has great potential, but doesn't know much of anything outside what she learned in a podunk little town; poverty, the local tabernacle church, and McDonalds.

Coyul and Barion take them on a ride through downstairs they can never forget, giving them both thier individual dreams to wake the sleeping genious in Charity, and to show her the monster the Roy can become. Charachters throughout history are also working in the realms of upstairs and downstairs and add a lot to the story. All told in witty, thoughtfull, and downright funny prose. A very enjoyable read.

Yep...I'm in...Went ahead and ordered a copy...Definitely looks like something I'll enjoy. Thanks for the tip !

 

[wvrevy]

Oh, and I also bought the sequel, "The Snake Oil Wars or Scheherazade Ginsberg Strikes Again" that takes on evangelists

Nothing like finding a new, interesting author.

Less than 10 bucks for both, including shipping...GOTTA love Amazon.com

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Just a hi from another heathen!

 

[Laura]

I am curious about reincarnation. Of course, Christians do not believe in it. But it makes sense on a lot of levels. For the atheists & agnostics, what do you think happens when you die?

I'm agnostically inclined, so I'll answer. I believe in reincarnation, and I do not believe in hell. I believe when we die, we go to heaven, to a "debriefing" area if you will, and get either a tongue-lashing or a heaping of praise about the lives we lived. Then maybe we go back to Earth right away, maybe we hang out in heaven and talk to Jesus and Buddha and Mohammed and so forth for a while and then go back after some time, maybe we never go back to Earth and continue our spiritual evolutions in heaven. It depends on the person. I think heaven is a good place, one where we can watch our loved ones and talk to them in dreams, give them nudges. I don't really believe in ghosts, spirits who walk the Earth endlessly. Guardian angel types, sure, but nothing negative.



I also wanted to say to everybody how great this thread is. So very welcoming, and all of you seem like you have great senses of humor.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Yep, because in the end, we're all just a pile of Nitrates.

Or is it Carbon....?

Well, I know that they use carbon dating to find out how old human remains are. I love reading about that kind of stuff, especially when the carcass is partially preserved or mummified.


I would much rather read about scientific discoveries than ponder whether or not some type of higher being is pulling the strings. It seems like such a waste of time. We still do not know so many things about how everything works on our own planet, not to mention in the solar system and with the rest of the universe. I can't imagine living your whole life just to find out what goes on after death? It doesn't really work as far as keeping the populace in line. If that what the original intent may have been, anyway!

 

[robinb]

So well said. I had my "light bulb moment" at around 5. I was in Sunday school and suddenly I just knew I did not believe any of it.

My "light bulb" moment came at 12. Unfortunately, it came when I was talking pre-baptismal classes. I was raised Northern Baptist and I felt enormous peer pressure to take the "plunge" ... literally. It was during the classes that are meant to prepare you for your life with jesus that I began to question the whole jesus thing. Then once jesus was questioned, could god be far behind? I was baptized anyway, even with my doubts but I was too chicken to back out. I was an agnostic within a year and an atheist within about 10 years. I clung to my "agnostic" label more for the comfort of others since "atheist" was so negative. As I grew older I just didn't give a darn and called myself what I was. A godless atheist.

I read threads here on the DIS and some of the things that people say there really make me scratch my head. It's as if they have been taken over by aliens. One man said "God first. Family second. The rest can shake out." That make me say "hmmmmm" to myself. Then there are the people who put god in charge of every facet of their lives, from day-to-day things, to their marriages, to their careers and even to their finances. How the heck does one allow god to do their finances, anyway? It's just totally outside my understanding.

I am sure that those same people I don't understand will read this thread and feel the same way about me/us!

 

[JennyMominRI]

I'm agnostically inclined, so I'll answer. I believe in reincarnation, and I do not believe in hell. I believe when we die, we go to heaven, to a "debriefing" area if you will, and get either a tongue-lashing or a heaping of praise about the lives we lived. Then maybe we go back to Earth right away, maybe we hang out in heaven and talk to Jesus and Buddha and Mohammed and so forth for a while and then go back after some time, maybe we never go back to Earth and continue our spiritual evolutions in heaven. It depends on the person. I think heaven is a good place, one where we can watch our loved ones and talk to them in dreams, give them nudges. I don't really believe in ghosts, spirits who walk the Earth endlessly. Guardian angel types, sure, but nothing negative.



I also wanted to say to everybody how great this thread is. So very welcoming, and all of you seem like you have great senses of humor.

I tend to lean towards reincarnation myself... There is a basis for this in Judaism.. It's not the most common belief about the world to come,but it is one

 

[EsmeraldaX]

How the heck does one allow god to do their finances, anyway?

I just got this image in my mind of god wearing a business suit sitting in a tiny accountants workstation in an office somewhere running reports...

 

[Laura]

I tend to lean towards reincarnation myself... There is a basis for this in Judaism.. It's not the most common belief about the world to come,but it is one

Really? A basis for reincarnation in Judaism? I had no idea. Y'know, your religion is one that I honestly wish I knew more about. The more I learn, the more I like.

 

[Crankyshank]

God is in charge of the family finances? Huh?
How in the hell....?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

as a group; the unconverted. [/I]

That's from dictionary.com. I think it describes us perfectly, no? I think the religious are the ones who give "heathens" a negative connotation.

I stand corrected---I don't agree with the negative connotation provided by those who must bible thump you on it---b/c while condemning you and preaching hell and damnation--missing that part about "love thy neighbor".

 

[rcyannacci]

Wow- fast moving thread...

Speaking of Mother Nature...when I was little, I used to think that Mother Nature was married to God and they lived in a big tree. I think, maybe, that most of the Bible stories bored me so I starting making some up on my own.

So well said. I had my "light bulb moment" at around 5. I was in Sunday school and suddenly I just knew I did not believe any of it. I like to say I was born without the "dupe" gene .

I'm not sure I had a light bulb moment. My disbelief just sort of added up gradually. The more I became interested in history and the more invested I became as a feminist, the more I began to feel comfortable being outside a mainstream faith.

On the whole Mary virgin or not question: I guess I'm at a loss as to why it would be so bad if she wasn't a virgin. Having a child by "normal" means is miracle enough, I think. (BTW-I just can't stand it when religion demeans women's bodies or treats them as something "unclean." What utter nonsense!)

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

darling you are always welcomed to post where I am. I enjoy our discussions!

~Amanda