Global warming??? Says who?!!!

Have you seen this: http://www.petitionproject.org/

Could it also be that those scientists that support global warming are being swayed by something other than science?

I'm thinking that whoever is running that petition uses a pretty loose definition of scientist.
The current list of petition signers includes 9,029 PhD; 7,153 MS; 2,585 MD and DVM; and 12,711 BS or equivalent academic degrees. Most of the MD and DVM signers also have underlying degrees in basic science.
Something tells me that my cat's doctor doesn't have a bunch of expertise in this field, even though he has an underlying science degree in addition to his DVM. The same goes for random PhD, MS degree holders as well as MDs. In fact, we have an appointment coming up with my wife's OB. I'll ask him what his thoughts on climate change are.
 

I completely agree. However, I think that it should be mentioned that short term decisions to benefit human beings to the detrimint of 'mother earth' actually bring more harm to human beings in the long term.

<Insert DDT/Bald Eagle discussion here>

If you insist. The fact is, the elimination of DDT is responsible for 1 to 2 million deaths per year for the more than 30 years that it has been banned. That is in excess of 70 million needless deaths.
http://www.acsh.org/healthissues/newsID.442/healthissue_detail.asp

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,202447,00.html
Bald Eagle-DDT Myth Still Flying High

Thursday , July 06, 2006

By Steven Milloy



Pennsylvania officials just announced success with their program to re-establish the state’s bald eagle population. But it’s a shame that such welcome news is being tainted by oft-repeated myths about the great bird’s near extinction.

In its July 4 article reporting that the number of bald eagle pairs in Pennsylvania had increased from 3 in 1983 to 100 for the first time in over a century, the Associated Press reached into its file of bald eagle folklore and reported, “DDT poisoned the birds, killing some adults and making the eggs of those that survived thin. The thin eggs dramatically reduced the chances of eaglets surviving to adulthood. DDT was banned in 1972. The next year, the Endangered Species Act passed and the bald eagles began their dramatic recovery.”

While the AP acknowledged the fact that bald eagle populations “were considered a nuisance and routinely shot by hunters, farmers and fishermen” – spurring a 1940 federal law protecting bald eagles – the AP underplayed the significance of hunting and human encroachment and erroneously blamed DDT for the eagles’ near demise.

As early as 1921, the journal Ecology reported that bald eagles were threatened with extinction – 22 years before DDT production even began. According to a report in the National Museum Bulletin, the bald eagle reportedly had vanished from New England by 1937 – 10 years before widespread use of the pesticide.

But by 1960 – 20 years after the Bald Eagle Protection Act and at the peak of DDT use – the Audubon Society reported counting 25 percent more eagles than in its pre-1941 census. U.S. Forest Service studies reported an increase in nesting bald eagle productivity from 51 in 1964 to 107 in 1970, according to the 1970 Annual Report on Bald Eagle Status.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service attributed bald eagle population reductions to a “widespread loss of suitable habitat,” but noted that “illegal shooting continues to be the leading cause of direct mortality in both adult and immature bald eagles,” according to a 1978 report in the Endangered Species Tech Bulletin.

A 1984 National Wildlife Federation publication listed hunting, power line electrocution, collisions in flight and poisoning from eating ducks containing lead shot as the leading causes of eagle deaths.

In addition to these reports, numerous scientific studies and experiments vindicate DDT.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service biologists fed large doses of DDT to captive bald eagles for 112 days and concluded that “DDT residues encountered by eagles in the environment would not adversely affect eagles or their eggs,” according to a 1966 report published in the “Transcripts of 31st North America Wildlife Conference.”

The USFWS examined every bald eagle found dead in the U.S. between 1961-1977 (266 birds) and reported no adverse effects caused by DDT or its residues.

One of the most notorious DDT “factoids” is that it thinned bird egg shells. But a 1970 study published in Pesticides Monitoring Journal reported that DDT residues in bird egg shells were not correlated with thinning. Numerous other feeding studies on caged birds indicate that DDT isn’t associated with egg shell thinning.

In the few studies claiming to implicate DDT as the cause of thinning, the birds were fed diets that were either low in calcium, included other known egg shell-thinning substances, or that contained levels of DDT far in excess of levels that would be found in the environment – and even then, the massive doses produced much less thinning than what had been found in egg shells in the wild.

So what causes thin bird egg shells? The potential culprits are many. Some that have been reported in the scientific literature include: oil; lead; mercury; stress from noise, fear, excitement or disease; age; bird size (larger birds produce thicker shells); dehydration; temperature; decreased light; human and predator intrusion; restraint and nutrient deficiencies.

Most of this evidence was available to the Environmental Protection Agency administrative judge who presided over the 1971-1972 hearings about whether DDT should be banned. No doubt it’s why he ruled that, “The use of DDT under the regulations involved here does not have a deleterious effect on freshwater fish, estuarine organisms, wild birds or other wildlife.”

Yet it’s the myths, not the facts that endure. Why? The answer is endless repetition. The environmentalists who wanted DDT banned have constantly repeated the myths over the last 40 years, while most of DDT’s defenders lost interest after the miracle chemical was summarily banned in 1972 by EPA administrator William Ruckleshaus.

Why was banning DDT so important to environmentalists?

Charles Wurster, a senior scientist for the Environmental Defense Fund – the activist group that led the charge against DDT – told the Seattle Times (Oct. 5, 1969) that, “If the environmentalists win on DDT, they will achieve a level of authority they have never had before. In a sense, much more is at stake than DDT.”

Banning DDT wasn’t about birds. It was about power. The sooner the record on DDT is set straight, the sooner the environmentalists’ ill-gotten “authority” will be seen for what it is.
 
hahahahahahahahhahahahahaah

<counting time until this thread is locked, it's already turning political>
 
I don't for a moment believe those that claim that not only has pollution not affected climate, but that pollution could not affect climate.

This makes no sense to me, at all.


Anyone who understands the solubility of CO2 in seawater as a function of temperature knows why CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere LAG rather than LEAD global average temperature changes, and understands that CO2 can't possibly be a climatically significant greenhouse gas, or else all life on Earth would have boiled to death eons ago.
 
Even *IF* Global Warming/Climate Change were a money garb (for whom I have no idea) what is so wrong with recycling and using our resources wisely so that future generations can have a nice planet? I see no problem with recycling water bottles, carpooling, using more efficient lighting, etc. Who really has a problem with any of that?

I don't doubt that this global warming/climate change is mainly natural; however I do firmly believe that we are atleast partially responsible for it. Why not do what we can to save the planet?
 
Even *IF* Global Warming/Climate Change were a money garb (for whom I have no idea) what is so wrong with recycling and using our resources wisely so that future generations can have a nice planet? I see no problem with recycling water bottles, carpooling, using more efficient lighting, etc. Who really has a problem with any of that?

I don't doubt that this global warming/climate change is mainly natural; however I do firmly believe that we are atleast partially responsible for it. Why not do what we can to save the planet?

If the entire world did as you said - GREAT. Forcing the US to unilaterally make changes that put us at an economic disadvantage to China, India, Brazil, etc - BAD.
 
Believe me when I tell you that all of that happened 40 and 50 years ago as well. Snow late one year...cold summers...warm winters...snow up to your neck the next year. :upsidedow

Nothing new is happening but what has changed is there are a lot more scientists out there competing for grant money so they don't have to get a real job. Therefore, catchy, scary warnings such as "Global Warming" crop up. Without that what exactly would Al Gore do for a living? :confused3

Climate changes also have been going on for millions of years. Remember your school lessens concerning how the North American continent was once covered by a massive glacier? That's how the great lakes and a lot of subsequent lakes, landscapes, rivers and streams were formed. Would that not be classified as "climate change" to the nth degree?:teacher:

Just as soon as all of us realize that we are no match for nature and that our influence over it is so minor it is almost unmeasurable, the happier we will all be.:woohoo:
Well said!!
 
I love how you rework the responses of others to make them sound preposterous. That, and your habit of phrasing your post as an insult to anyone who dares disagree are really interesting ways to debate.

You mean like this:

I don't for a moment believe those that claim that not only has pollution not affected climate, but that pollution could not affect climate.

This makes no sense to me, at all.

Or maybe like this:

I'm thinking that whoever is running that petition uses a pretty loose definition of scientist.
Something tells me that my cat's doctor doesn't have a bunch of expertise in this field, even though he has an underlying science degree in addition to his DVM. The same goes for random PhD, MS degree holders as well as MDs. In fact, we have an appointment coming up with my wife's OB. I'll ask him what his thoughts on climate change are.

:confused3
 
Even *IF* Global Warming/Climate Change were a money garb [sic] (for whom I have no idea) what is so wrong with recycling and using our resources wisely so that future generations can have a nice planet? I see no problem with recycling water bottles, carpooling, using more efficient lighting, etc. Who really has a problem with any of that?

Hey, go for it!

But what is pollution?

"Don't spill that oil on the ground that, uh, came from the ground. That's pollution!"
 
[nice to see some politics back on '33'!]
 
Even *IF* Global Warming/Climate Change were a money garb (for whom I have no idea) what is so wrong with recycling and using our resources wisely so that future generations can have a nice planet? I see no problem with recycling water bottles, carpooling, using more efficient lighting, etc. Who really has a problem with any of that?

I have absolutely no problem with recycling. In fact, I volunteered at our community recycling center.
 
Even *IF* Global Warming/Climate Change were a money garb (for whom I have no idea) what is so wrong with recycling and using our resources wisely so that future generations can have a nice planet? I see no problem with recycling water bottles, carpooling, using more efficient lighting, etc. Who really has a problem with any of that?

I don't doubt that this global warming/climate change is mainly natural; however I do firmly believe that we are atleast partially responsible for it. Why not do what we can to save the planet?

There is nothing wrong with recycling. I do quite a bit of recycling. But the supposed solutions to global warming the AGW'ers want to force on us go a lot further than recycling, won't do a thing to effect the climate, and will significantly damage our economy.
 
I love how you rework the responses of others to make them sound preposterous. That, and your habit of phrasing your post as an insult to anyone who dares disagree are really interesting ways to debate.

That being said, no one has suggested that the earth has 'come under the control of man', whatever that means. However, it is reasonable to believe that the actions of man do have an effect.

Further, it should be mentioned that scientists overwhelmingly agree that climate change is affected by our actions. Many would argue that those relatively few scientists who are still in disagreement are either seriously in error or are being swayed by something other than the science.

Finally, it's true that climate change happens. Often times it is brought about by near cataclismic events, such as meteor impacts or volcanic activity. The way I understand these theories is that a good size meteor impacts the planet (or volcanos erupting) causing lots of dust and smoke (pollution) to litter the atmosphere. Anyway, as you said, climate change happens. Is that a reason that we should make it worse? I think not.

Planet Earth makes it preposterous not me. As for me insulting, that is how you choose to take it. That is something over which I have no control. 7 years ago, our daughter in second grade learned that the Earth has been through many climate changes.

Not all climate changes have been brought about by cataclysmic events. A huge volcanic eruption usually brings bring about short-term climatic changes. Short term meaning a decade or a couple of decades.

Variations in the Earth's orbital characteristics however can last 100,000 years. This is when the Earth's orbit goes from elliptical to more circular and back affecting the amount of the variation in solar energy received at the top of the atmosphere.

A 2nd cyclical variation results from the fact that as the Earth rotates on its polar axis, it wobbles like a spinning top changing the orbital timing of the equinoxes and solstices. This effect is known as the precession of the equinox which has a cycle of about 26000 years.

The 3rd is the earth's tilt. Right now it's at 23.5 but can vary from approximately 22.5 to 24.5°. A small tilt means less variation in temperatures between winter and summer in the middle and high latitudes. Of course, a greater tilt means the opposite. The tilt cycles last about 41000 years.

Another event having a big impact is sunspot activity. To make a very long explanation short, very little sunspot activity was occurring on the sun's surface during The Little Ice Age, a time of a much cooler global climate and some scientists correlate this occurrence with a reduction in solar activity over a period of 90 or 180 years.

Sorry for the long post but there is a lot of scientific information out there, much of it by climatologists who have debunked the global warming theory which led to "global warming" now being called climate change.
 
Sunday night - up here at the lake - we were talking about how unusually cool it has been for this time of year.. Lots of rain as well..

The funny part is that when I first arrived here - in the middle of April - on that Sat. and Sun. night the temps dropped to 20 degrees - then that following Friday, the temps zoomed up to 89 degrees and stayed in the 89 to 90 degree range for almost a full week.. Dropped back down to the 50's again and has been "all over the map" since then..

Really, really strange weather this year - and I don't like it when the weather is "strange".. Makes it seem like something drastic is on the horizon..

Has anyone heard any reliable predictions for what the hurricane season will be like down south this year?
 
Man-cause climate change is a scam. However, I still oppose pollution based on the need for clean air and water.
 

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