Gifted classes/school --- why the overwhelming demand?

[golfgal]

I can't. Our gifted program here, if we cut through all the crap, is mostly about keeping the parents happy. Our "gifted" teacher has no formal training in the teaching of gifted students.

I love your question because I've been battling with that question for decades now. When does a kid forfeit the right to his education? If I were king of the world, I'd give him (or her) a hard dose of reality and suggest he find his education in the school of hard knocks. If you don't perform or are disruptive in a private school setting, that school dismisses you. Public schools don't have that option. And trust me, I've seen student be intentionally disruptive because they have the power to do so and know it. I can't imagine the cost of these students in real dollars.

Further, and this is the saddest part of education now, once a student passes whatever state mandated test is required, he doesn't matter in the eyes of some schools. We literally identify the kids individually who are close to passing and create special classes for them, tutoring opportunities, not because we care about them being educated, but because we need to make AYP. If we don't, we get put on a list, and our funds are cut or the state takes over the school (like it's not running it already). But this is the state of public education today.

Actually, you would pretty much just need to be king of the US because the rest of the world pretty much does this already. We are the only, or one of the few, countries that has compulsory education for kids over 16. Many countries kids take a test at that age to determine their future path. You have to score high enough to go on to "college" which is roughly equivalent to our high school or community college and then if you score well enough after that you go on to "university" which is what we call college or university here. For kids that don't try in school, they go into the workforce or to what we would call a trade school.


Again, the question posted was why the overwhelming demand for Gifted and Talented programs. It isn't about being proud of your child or whether your child is bright or not-it is about why the sudden need for all of these programs. The answer is the same as it would be for parents that think their child is overly talented in sports, or music, or theater or pageants or whatever-the demand is there because PARENTS need their ego stroked. If parents were totally taken out of the equation, participation in most of these programs would drop, significantly. I am sure there are some programs that don't have overbearing parents but they are few and far between. Not that they can tell you but I bet if you asked your G/T teachers, they would tell you the same thing.

 

[cabanafrau]

I havent seen 1 person here flame the type of child you describe. However, Ive seen quite of few very broad brushing of gifted kids and their parents.



So this is a parental issue, and has nothing to do with gifted. Seems every thread here about a Gifted question has had broad brush flames about the parents as if all parents of gifted kids are like that. Ginny's post bleed bitterness.



In the MYIB at my daughters school, those issues are cause bad marks. If indeed plagiarism is a problem, the instructor needs to step up to the plate, grade appropriately, and inform the student why.



You will always have to deal with entitlement attitude from people. Its not just parents of gifted kids. Its parents of pageant kids, sports kids, and politics as well.



Welcome to life itself. They are kids. You dont think this happens in every other facet of education? Does being "gifted" mean they arent kids and act like kids?



And this is unique to gifted kids?



Like normal kids parents?



And this is unique for gifted kids?



Sounds like bragging to me. Seems like a little do as I say, not as I do here.



One should fight the system so they arent forced to home school, just sayin



Not all schools have the resources or can attract that training. I drive my DD14 40 miles to her school to find the best education I can for her. AZ isnt a bastion of education. I found a place that has trained instructors and counselors to deliver the education she needs.



I agree. Most gifted kids learn differently then the general ed system delivers.

Not sure I believe that most gifted kids learn differently than the general ed system delivers. IMO the gifted component in the equation comes into play in regards to what is done with the instruction and the information delivered. I believe a gifted student can take the instruction and information and conceptualize further in creative and deductive independent thought.

 

[jrmasm]

Yes...but they do it there. It is wrong. Now you understand my fury. I am NO longer in that district, because I would have killed someone.

I don't agree with a lot of the crap that has been said on this thread regarding gifted programs but I agree with you 100% regarding AP and Honors classes. The policy that you mention makes NO sense.

 

[dngnb8]

Not sure I believe that most gifted kids learn differently than the general ed system delivers. IMO the gifted component in the equation comes into play in regards to what is done with the instruction and the information delivered. I believe a gifted student can take the instruction and information and conceptualize further in creative and deductive independent thought.

There is quite a bit of empirical data on this. The general ed delivery of learning can be a challenge for gifted children. Especially if they are twice gifted. Many people have this perception gifted means they can learn anything in any format. Sadly, that isnt the case.

EDIT: At first I wasnt going to address the comment, but I changed my mind. I bolded what I am referring to here.

Before I went through the research, I was like you. I didnt believe it. It took research, stress, frustration, counselors, testing, and lots of fighting for me to understand it. The thing about our "beliefs" is they can be formed by misconceptions. If you dont do the research, your beliefs could be incorrect. Im not flaming you, we all do this. But I think you have seen much in this thread that would at least raise the question for you to question whether your beliefs are based on misconceptions or not.

 

[golfgal]

Not sure I believe that most gifted kids learn differently than the general ed system delivers. IMO the gifted component in the equation comes into play in regards to what is done with the instruction and the information delivered. I believe a gifted student can take the instruction and information and conceptualize further in creative and deductive independent thought.

This is the crux of the whole G/T debate and what differentiates a truly gifted child from a great student--they DO process information differently-they think through problems differently. This is the number one selection tool for the G/T program at our school--which is why our high IQ kids are not in the G/T program-nor should they be. THIS is why G/T programs are important and why there should NOT be an overwhelming demand for these programs. Kids like this are few and far between. In a class of 500 kids you should, statically only see one or two kids that are truly GIFTED. In our DS18's graduating class last year there were 440 kids and only ONE of those kids was truly academically gifted. He graduated as co-valedictorian. The other valedictorian said he studied his rear off in high school to get the grades he did. He fully admits he wasn't "gifted" academically. Now, MUSICALLY the kid is a prodigy. He is AMAZING. The rest of the top grads were VERY good students, but not "gifted" in the true sense of the word.

 

[ccgirl]

Actually the day is split between 2 schools, so it is a full day of schooling.

The extracurriculars are not every night, the community service isn't every night, there isn't socialization every night -- excepting facebook & texting, which with teenagers goes without saying.

Like I said, I would never have believed six hours of homework a night would be a workable option for anybody. I've seen it working beautifully & I'm kind of impressed & in awe to be honest.

Stop & think about featured stories about Olympic and world class athletes in this age-range who put in unbelievable amounts of practice time, six to seven days a week, and go to school. Usually the stories mention they're doing well in school also & I hope that's genuinely the truth. Why applaud the hockey players, figure skaters, gymnasts, etc., for hitting the ice or the gym before school, after school, etc, yet scoff at kids spending their time on studies instead of the athletics, video games or whatever else they could occupy their time with?

I could understand if hitting the books so hard kept a kid from participating fully in the rest of life, but what's the harm if they're living a well-rounded lifestyle?

This is a great post, and you are absolutely right. WHen putting in the extra time for athletics it's seen as a great thing but when putting in extra time for academics it is seen as not letting the child be a child. Guess what? Some students actually enjoy academics just like some students enjoy sports. I have mentioned before, My DD does competive swimming. She LOVES it. I can only do the doggy paddle. Swimming is not my thing. I don't enjoy it, she chose to do it. She is not one of the elite swimmers. The elite swimmers swim for 1.5 hours before school and 4 hours after school M-F. They also swim on Saturday's and Sunday's. A lot of them are also in Honors classes and make the honor roll so the swimming is not affecting them negatively. They have gotten scholarships to some fabulous colleges and have even been Captain of the swim team. Quite a few have been Olympic qualifiers. They have quite a bond and friendship with the other swimmers. Just because the kids aren't texting or facebooking all night does not mean they aren't enjoying themselves or being kids. They are doing something they like, just like the student that plays video games or texts for hours on end. Each child is different, it does not make one better than another. If a child wants to do something shouldn't we encourage it whether it's academic or athletic?

 

[cabanafrau]

There is quite a bit of empirical data on this. The general ed delivery of learning can be a challenge for gifted children. Especially if they are twice gifted. Many people have this perception gifted means they can learn anything in any format. Sadly, that isnt the case.

I am very familiar with how some learning disabilities impact learning styles for some students and definitely understand that some kids perceived as stupid on some measures of achievement are absolutely anything but. I'd love there to be understanding of all the barriers and the possibility to unlock the potential in each and every kid. That would surely be a positive for the entire planet.

To be clear, I say some learning disabilities in the sense that I have some level of experience with a few learning disabilities. There's lots of LD's I'm only familiar with by name and I'm sure there's scads I've never heard of at all.

I do believe my original statement holds true for many gifted kids. They take what they do out of information & instruction and put it to work with creativity and logic. It's not a blanket statement about all and I have stated before in this thread, different strokes for different folks. I absolutely believe we need all types of thinkers and talents in this world, each is part of the puzzle.

 

[Poohforyou]

This is the crux of the whole G/T debate and what differentiates a truly gifted child from a great student--they DO process information differently-they think through problems differently. This is the number one selection tool for the G/T program at our school--which is why our high IQ kids are not in the G/T program-nor should they be. THIS is why G/T programs are important and why there should NOT be an overwhelming demand for these programs. Kids like this are few and far between. In a class of 500 kids you should, statically only see one or two kids that are truly GIFTED. In our DS18's graduating class last year there were 440 kids and only ONE of those kids was truly academically gifted. He graduated as co-valedictorian. The other valedictorian said he studied his rear off in high school to get the grades he did. He fully admits he wasn't "gifted" academically. Now, MUSICALLY the kid is a prodigy. He is AMAZING. The rest of the top grads were VERY good students, but not "gifted" in the true sense of the word.

I agree with you that most kids in G&T programs aren't truely gifted. My DD is one of them. She does have some qualities of a gifted student but I don't think she completely fits the profile.

In DD's elementary school last year maybe 6-7% of the kids in her grade were in the exceptionally able learning program (our version of G&T). Of those kids there was 1 that I'd say way truely gifted from what I observed when I volunteered at school. The rest were somewhere in between bright and gifted.

However, when the school only offers basic skills, regular classroom learning and G&T program what decision would you expect a parent to make if their bright child qualified for G&T and wasn't challenged enough in the regular classroom? Would you criticize a parent for wanting their child in a basic skills program if the regular classroom lessons were too overwhelming?

 

[Queen2PrincessG]

I think the reason so many seek out G&T classes has EVERYTHING to do with the insanity of "No Child Left Behind". Kids who are ready to go and advance can't because they have a teacher who has to work with a student who isn't moving as quickly, which is fine, no one is pressuring them but others do not need to be slowed down either.

 

[golfgal]

I agree with you that most kids in G&T programs aren't truely gifted. My DD is one of them. She does have some qualities of a gifted student but I don't think she completely fits the profile.

In DD's elementary school last year maybe 6-7% of the kids in her grade were in the exceptionally able learning program (our version of G&T). Of those kids there was 1 that I'd say way truely gifted from what I observed when I volunteered at school. The rest were somewhere in between bright and gifted.

However, when the school only offers basic skills, regular classroom learning and G&T program what decision would you expect a parent to make if their bright child qualified for G&T and wasn't challenged enough in the regular classroom? Would you criticize a parent for wanting their child in a basic skills program if the regular classroom lessons were too overwhelming?

It would depend on how they went about the process-in either direction. One example-our neighbor's DD is in band with our kids, same age, plays a different instrument. They do tryouts in the spring for placement for band next year (we have 8 concert bands). Her DD is in the 3rd highest band this year and will stay in that band next year. When our neighbor found out about this she was LIVID. She went up to school and layed into the band directors that her DD should be moved up to the top band-her reasoning, because she is friends with the top trumpet player in the band . She is LAST Chair in her band now. Yes, I criticize her for that because it is just stupid. This is the same attitude you see with a lot of parents trying to get their kids into the G/T programs-and sports and music and pageants, etc. Yep, I criticize these parents with this attitude. Now, if they wanted to schedule a meeting with the teacher, get some information about why she was not moved up and what things she needed to work on to improve her chances of moving up to the top band as a senior, ok, I am fine with that (although I think the DD should do that).

Now, if your school only has basic skills classes and needs something between gifted and basic, I would try to work through the school district to offer more advanced classes for the better students-which is what they really need. If we landed in a district that only had those choices I would move or figure out a way to supplement the kids' education if they didn't get into the G/T programs.

Part of why we picked the district we did when we moved is that they have 6 levels of learning options-basic, advanced, honors, AP/CIS (college in the schools). They also have special ed classes and a post-secondary option where kids go to one of the 4 year colleges/universities and take classes there for high school and college credits (this is a statewide option). Most of the better students in high school do a combination of the AP/CIS/Post secondary options. The kids that are pretty good students, still going on to college but not to super selective colleges take a combination of the advanced/honors courses-maybe an AP class in their best subject. Kids going on to community college usually take a combo of the basic/advanced classes, etc.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I don't agree with a lot of the crap that has been said on this thread regarding gifted programs but I agree with you 100% regarding AP and Honors classes. The policy that you mention makes NO sense.

To be fair, the district in question really does not have many AP classes. They do "honors" and dual enrollment with community college instead.

The thing with the science classes is that I guess their "gifted program" is math/science based therefore they have to be in the gifted program to take "physical science" in 8th grade to move onto Biology in 9th grade.

Which if you do the "math" this puts you at a disadvantage because you have to take Chemistry/Alg 2 together or something along those lines.

So it is possible to take Honors in this HS *if* you can get in. But that would not happen until you are in your sophomore yr and then you see the dilemma....you are now behind the gifted kids. So I wanted to be clear.

It is just a poor strategy if you have a "bright or above average" kid.

The school my dd is currently in offers honors, AP, dual enrollment, and better classes. It caters to "bright" students as well as TRUE gifted.

 

[ccgirl]

I think the reason so many seek out G&T classes has EVERYTHING to do with the insanity of "No Child Left Behind". Kids who are ready to go and advance can't because they have a teacher who has to work with a student who isn't moving as quickly, which is fine, no one is pressuring them but others do not need to be slowed down either.

Totally agree. Which is why I stand by my one size doesn't fit all in education. Children are capable of learning at different levels. Period. Different levels need to be provided to suit all children. If you only offer basic classes, those that are average or advanced miss out. If you only offer average, those that are basic or advanced miss out. If you only offer advanced, those that are basic or average miss out.

 

[cabanafrau]

To be fair, the district in question really does not have many AP classes. They do "honors" and dual enrollment with community college instead.

The thing with the science classes is that I guess their "gifted program" is math/science based therefore they have to be in the gifted program to take "physical science" in 8th grade to move onto Biology in 9th grade.

Which if you do the "math" this puts you at a disadvantage because you have to take Chemistry/Alg 2 together or something along those lines.

So it is possible to take Honors in this HS *if* you can get in. But that would not happen until you are in your sophomore yr and then you see the dilemma....you are now behind the gifted kids. So I wanted to be clear.

It is just a poor strategy if you have a "bright or above average" kid.

The school my dd is currently in offers honors, AP, dual enrollment, and better classes. It caters to "bright" students as well as TRUE gifted.

Our home high school district is somewhat similar as far as what they name, for lack of a better/clearer term, advanced classes. There is no G/T program or honors classes. There are a few AP classes, very few.

I'm not sure about what you mean about being disadvantaged to take chem/algebra II together?

I think a lot of the problem in discussing this is the name/label & curriculum of a course isn't apples to apples everywhere. When a good friend moved to the Tampa area 15 or so years ago, she & her DH took a good amount of time researching schools before building their home. Then when the kids began reaching HS age they wrestled with trying to get a grip on all of the levels of classes available, what each meant & what they believed was the best fit for each as they reached HS. The only consistent strategy they worked for each of the kids was none would take the basic straightforward class in any subject, because they learned that the basic math, science, history, foreign language, ELA of any type would be a barrier to getting into most colleges and universities in FL, period. They helped guide each of the kids in different paths for their HS classes, but always with the idea that the bottom line would be attendance at FSU, UofF, other state or private equivalents.(I'm only giving those examples because I have little familiarity with FL colleges.)

None of the kids has learning disabilities. One of them could be brain surgeon/rocket scientist/nuclear physist, etc. etc. etc. -- all at the same time. All of the kids turned out wonderfully, successfully graduated from university(one w/ a couple detours along the way), and are all successful in their careers in 3 separate areas of the country.

I think they did their advocating the right way because they simply didn't choose for all to go for the top level of every class and each of the kids found their way through HS, college and into a career where they're happy & successful.

 

[kbeverina]

A standard G&T program has pretty much been phased out by the time kids hit high school in our area. There's no one-size-fits-all.

Any student can take AP or Dual Enrollment classes. Any student can take a particular Honors course with recommendation from the teacher who taught the preceding course in that subject. You can get into the Honors courses with Bs if you're demonstrating to the teacher that you're a hard worker and like the challenge of the harder course.

Students have to apply and be accepted into the IB program and the Technology Academy, as well as any public magnet high school for arts or science and technology. The Commonwealth Governor's School is probably the closest we have to a G&T program because it encompasses all subjects, but you must apply and be accepted at the state level.

There is no stroking of parent egos without the student ability to back it up. You can't just go up to the school and demand your child be put in Governor's School. It's all on the kid.

So to the original question--why the demand? My experience is that it's not so much about the parents, but about the kids. The kids want these classes. We have courses that have the majority of sections at the AP level because that's what the kids are signing up for. Kids are smarter and brighter than they've ever been and are taking advanced classes at younger ages and so many of them want to challenge themselves as much as possible.

And, on the flip side, we have teachers who want to teach at that level and offer that challenge. The two main components are the students looking for more and teachers who love that. I have seen some parent ego involved at the lower elementary level, but by middle and high school that is largely gone. Apparently some school systems that have been so lauded here cater to that, but ours does not.

 

[surfergirl602]

There is so much talk on this board about having gifted children.
I don't really get it...I'm just happy if my stepson does his best and doesn't get bad grades. More important than that is if he's a good kid- kind, responsible, generous etc.
Although I'll admit this...even though I'm not too into if he can be gifted, I am into being popular. It's important to me that he has the right clothes and is good looking and all that, because I care more about popularity than about getting the best grades. (People here have told me that's because I'm still young and when I'm older I'll feel differently.)
Maybe I'll understand all this gifted stuff someday if I have a baby of my own. Maybe I'll feel differently then, who knows. Maybe I'll want my baby to be gifted too!

I've been reading this thread for a few days now because I have been very curious over this whole G & T thing. I've learned a lot, mostly that the schools here are cr*p compared to others. But I'm still shaking my head over this one. And here I was, hoping that my kids would be smart so they could do well in college and have a career and support themselves and their families. What was I thinking? Do you mean to tell me that I should be worrying about what my kids are wearing instead? That my girls should worry about clothes and fashion and just find a man that will take care of them so they won't have to think or do anything for themselves? Just curious, but how old are you? You said "because you're still young"...

 

[GinnyEmma]

I'm still shaking my head over this one. And here I was, hoping that my kids would be smart so they could do well in college and have a career and support themselves and their families. What was I thinking? Do you mean to tell me that I should be worrying about what my kids are wearing instead? That my girls should worry about clothes and fashion and just find a man that will take care of them so they won't have to think or do anything for themselves? Just curious, but how old are you? You said "because you're still young"...

No kidding! Too young or too old to be playing dressup with the teenage stepkid.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

Who said I was punishing anyone? . The point is even just the title of the classes "Gifted and Talented" lends itself to stroking a parent's ego. Even here on this board parents constantly throw out that their child is "in G/T" when they talk about any issue with school. The problem is most of these kids are just really good students and do not meet the true definition of a "gifted" child. I also think that if schools tried to change their course titles to "advanced" classes, which is what most of these programs really are, parents would fight that because they can no longer say that their child is "gifted". Do schools need advanced track programs, Absolutely!! Are 99% of the kids in "Gifted/Talented" classes really "gifted", no.

OK, please try again to understand basic statistical distribution curves. If you define "gifted" as a genius IQ, then 2.275% of all children in a random pool of children will be gifted, i.e. 2+ standard deviations from the mean. If you assume that 10% of students at a school are in the school's TAG program, that indicates that 22.75% of the TAG students have genius IQs (assuming the correct kids are admitted to the program). If you assume that 25% of a random class is in the school's TAG program (a pretty liberal admission policy, but possible), then 9.1% of the TAG students have genius IQs. The only way that only 1% of the students in a TAG program are technically "gifted" is if your pool of students is less intelligent than average and you let everybody into the program.

Secondly, we are spending a lot of time harping on the "gifted" but not discussing the "talented", which is a part of nearly every program that we're discussing. This is a way of recognizing the children with extra talents, who need extra stimulation, and while they may not technically have genius IQs, the schools recognize that they benefit from additional enrichment and learning strategies.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

This is the crux of the whole G/T debate and what differentiates a truly gifted child from a great student--they DO process information differently-they think through problems differently. This is the number one selection tool for the G/T program at our school--which is why our high IQ kids are not in the G/T program-nor should they be. THIS is why G/T programs are important and why there should NOT be an overwhelming demand for these programs. Kids like this are few and far between. In a class of 500 kids you should, statically only see one or two kids that are truly GIFTED. In our DS18's graduating class last year there were 440 kids and only ONE of those kids was truly academically gifted. He graduated as co-valedictorian. The other valedictorian said he studied his rear off in high school to get the grades he did. He fully admits he wasn't "gifted" academically. Now, MUSICALLY the kid is a prodigy. He is AMAZING. The rest of the top grads were VERY good students, but not "gifted" in the true sense of the word.

What standard deviation from the mean are you utilizing to yield that number, because it doesn't match up with any distribution curves with which I am familiar. Perhaps you just have a high school of very average kids by some fluke of statistical distribution? Or an unrealistic expectation of what is gifted?

 

[cabanafrau]

There is quite a bit of empirical data on this. The general ed delivery of learning can be a challenge for gifted children. Especially if they are twice gifted. Many people have this perception gifted means they can learn anything in any format. Sadly, that isnt the case.

EDIT: At first I wasnt going to address the comment, but I changed my mind. I bolded what I am referring to here.

Before I went through the research, I was like you. I didnt believe it. It took research, stress, frustration, counselors, testing, and lots of fighting for me to understand it. The thing about our "beliefs" is they can be formed by misconceptions. If you dont do the research, your beliefs could be incorrect. Im not flaming you, we all do this. But I think you have seen much in this thread that would at least raise the question for you to question whether your beliefs are based on misconceptions or not.

I don't take your response as flaming at all. I did respond to your original part of this post, but I will take a second attempt at responding to what you've added.

I'm not understanding if you are saying all gifted kids are learning disabled. I don't believe that's true. My comments refer to those kids who are not doubly gifted as it were. I stand behind my comments in that regard.

Particularly in regards to dyslexia, but also somewhat with dysgraphia & some other LD's that are visual-based, I understand where much of what you say is true. It sounds like you have gone through an awful lot to figure out what the obstacles are for your daughter. Don't beat yourself up because you misunderstood some of what was going on & did the best you knew to fix the problem. My DH was dyslexic when few people outside of medical & educational fields knew what it was. He is the child of a teacher. His folks didn't understand it a bit. A colleague of his parent's was DH's teacher and became very frustrated because he could not read. The day he told my husband he must be ******** was what finally made my in-law's take action.

As horrible as it was to be told by an adult authority figure that you must be ********, DH survived it and eventually thrived. Your misunderstanding of the early signs of your DD's LD and attempting to do something to correct course pale in comparison. With the obvious amount of learning you have obviously done to get her help, I am sure she realizes she is intelligent and that she is loved & supported. There's not a lot more a parent can do to make sure their child succeeds educationally.

Whether we agree or disagree about this on the fine points or the bigger ones, it's okay to talk about it without feeling flamed.

 

[surfergirl602]

No kidding! Too young or too old to be playing dressup with the teenage stepkid.

I'm honestly really intrigued (and a bit disgusted) by some of these comments. I will be 31 in June.

Currently I have a 4th grader, a 3rd grader, and one in preschool. Their education is the most important thing in the world to me.

I want them to have every opportunity available to them when it comes to education. They are enrolled in music lessons, because the schools do not offer it. They play soccer, again, after school, because the schools do not offer it. I pay out of pocket for these things. My way of thinking is that paying for these has always been a better choice than buying clothes with that money.

My kids may not be in the g/t program, but I should at least give them every opportunity to learn.