Gay Ignorance = Gay Avoidance???

[True North]

Hi Kaelyn! I'm a little lost on you post. Are you sure you are not being accused of being homophobic because of your "very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex"? That seems to be more a reason to me then your political party or religion. For example, the only Christian pastor I know is one of the wonderful moderators of this board and clearly no one is saying she is homophobic because of her religion.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you take offence to being called homophobic? Just because of what you said in the above I would put you in that catagory, yet it seems as if this is offensive to you. Is it becuase you do not tell people what to do that you do not consider yourself this way, or is it becuase you have a gay friend? I guess I am just confussed on why someone would be offended when they seem to fit the bill. Sorry to ask all this, but as you might guess not too many people with your views stop by here.

 

[iankh]

... i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." ...

Super-rights? In my day, they were called equal rights.

You mean wanting my property protected is super-rights?

You mean fighting against the fact that my partner and I of 19 years don't have the same rights as opposite-sex couples is super-rights?

You mean the fact that if I or my partner of 19 years gets seriously ill that we have no rights to have a say what happens in the hosiptal or visit them is super-rights?

Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn if you approve or disapprove of me. But let's face it, I pay taxes, lots of them and for that I am treated to inferior status and protection under the law.

But then I might just be one of them uppity homos who doesn't know my place.

 

[gabbysmom04]

I am a 26 yr old married woman. I enjoy reading these boards! I love to
comment on the L word thread and read what other people think about different things. I at times feel odd because I am not one or the other. I am just glad that this board was started. I also want to add that I am so sick of people asking if they should take their familes to WDW during gay days. As if people would be doing it on main street. Well, that has nothing to do with this thread but I had to vent that!

 

[RickinNYC]

you know what is frustrating for me? the same things as everyone else: being stereotyped. i am a politically conservative, bible thumping, white bread, anti-feminist, straight female who is married with a baby son. my best friend is a gay man. i have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant). i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." but my best friend, as all people, is an adult and can make the choice for himself who he sleeps with. it is not my place to tell him what to do. he knows how i feel about it, because if anyone asks me my opinions i will tell them without fear or shame, but i will not tell someone else how to live their life (with the exception of my husband ~ i think i can tell him who to sleep with and who not to!!) and yet i am constantly accused of being homophobic because i am a republican or of being judgemental because i am a christian. and you know what? i think that more conservative christians feel the way that i do than are given credit. it is just that no one listens to anyone anymore because everyone thinks that they already know what someone will say.

just had to vent a little here... sorry!!!

Kaelyn, perhaps you should sit quietly by yourself and truly consider why anyone would accuse you of being homophobic. In fact, I strongly advise that you read and reread your post above. I suspect that such accusations were made, not because you are Christian or Republican, but because you "have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant)." Plus, you admittedly "have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights.""

One shouldn't have to justify one's opinions ever, not if you know those opinions aren't offensive. But if they are, and sorry sweetie, but your opinions are shockingly, stupifyingly, horrifyingly offensive, then yeah, I guess you should expect folks to ask for justification AND you should expect to be labeled as biased.

Nevertheless, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. Fair is fair.

 

[Mama Twinkles]

Kaelyn, I grabbed the following quote from the PFLAG website:

Why should I support gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender rights?

"GLBT rights are not special rights. PFLAG works to achieve equal civil rights for all people, including our gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) loved ones. Because our GLBT children, friends and family members deserve the same rights as our straight ones; because discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity is still legal in many states; because a GLBT person can be fired from their job simply because of who they love or how they express their gender; because same sex couples cannot legally be married in the majority of states in the United States; because GLBT youth face constant harassment and abuse in schools across the country; because the road to full equality and acceptance is a long one - PFLAG needs you to stand up and join us in our work. Your loved one needs you to take a stand for fairness. By being open about yourself and your family you are already helping to dispel misinformation and fear. You can take the next step by joining PFLAG as we support, educate and advocate for a better world."

I hope that you will become a real ally to gays and lesbians (for your sake, for your best friend's and for all of us). I sense that you genuinely do not see yourself as homophobic, and that you may be ready to reevaluate some long-and dearly held beliefs. Sometimes it is the tenets of one's religious sect that need to be questioned, especially when they interfere with deep acceptance of other humans. Your gay neighbors are law-abiding, loving, taxpaying citizens who are persecuted daily because of a difference. Kaelyn, our difference is biological regardless of what your church has told you. There is not a serious scientific researcher in the field who believes otherwise. We do not choose our sexual orientations and they do not render us immoral, immature or sick.

I beg you to educate yourself on the matter of biology. Here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Biology Here is one quote from that article: "Homosexual behaviour is common in the animal kingdom, especially in species closer to humans on the evolutionary scale, such as the great apes. Georgetown University professor Janet Mann has specifically theorised that homosexuality, at least in dolphins, is an evolutionary advantage that minimises intraspecies aggression, especially among males." Surely you would agree that animals don't "choose" to be gay. Here is another good article with a nice survey of the biological literature: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2005/08/14/what_makes_people_gay/?page=1

Education will lead you to acceptance; bigotry is rooted in ignorance. Truth will prevail with or without you and other evangelicals, Kaelyn. The choice is yours. But we would welcome adding your voice to our growing chorus.

 

[themudd4]

you know what is frustrating for me? the same things as everyone else: being stereotyped. i am a politically conservative, bible thumping, white bread, anti-feminist, straight female who is married with a baby son. my best friend is a gay man. i have very strong opinions about the non-biology of the gay life and about the sinful nature of homosexual sex (or any sex outside of a marriage covenant). i have even stronger opinions about the gay political movement and the quest for "super-rights." but my best friend, as all people, is an adult and can make the choice for himself who he sleeps with. it is not my place to tell him what to do. he knows how i feel about it, because if anyone asks me my opinions i will tell them without fear or shame, but i will not tell someone else how to live their life (with the exception of my husband ~ i think i can tell him who to sleep with and who not to!!) and yet i am constantly accused of being homophobic because i am a republican or of being judgemental because i am a christian. and you know what? i think that more conservative christians feel the way that i do than are given credit. it is just that no one listens to anyone anymore because everyone thinks that they already know what someone will say.

just had to vent a little here... sorry!!!

Let's see where to start...
Being a christian myself, I just keep thinking of something I read once in a really good book...Jugde not less ye be jugded.

If I were a lesbian I would hope that no one would jugde me and make me feel less than what I am. I would hope to have the same rights as anyone else. If I had to fight for those rights I would! I don't think anyone is asking for anything more or less.

If your best firend is a gay man then you might be able to see into his life a little and see what he faces day to day. But then again, if he knows your feelings on this issue he may feel uncomfortable being able to come to you with a situations and problems he may be facing. If so, I am sorry...as for my best friend can come to me about anything, and know I am there for them 100%.

A lil off subject:
My Nephew has not came out of the closet to anyone...(and I may be jumping the gun a little) but he has gave me hints, asked me questions about my opinion on the issue and asked how I would treat a family member. My anwser is the same everytime. If your gay, be happy, if your str8 be happy and if your bi be happy. Don't let anyone else be the bearer of your happiness. And as for me...I will love him just as much if not more than ever. I just want him to be able to be honest with me as well as himself. My DH thinks the only reason he continues to come to me is because his parent's are to the extreme in the other direction.

 

[Empare]

I know this is going to sound rude to someone...so in advance...SORRY!

Who cares what anyone else thinks! If your gay, be happy...if your str8, be happy...and if your bi, be happy. The only one that needs to worry about your life and how you live it is you!
I am sure that some "STUPID" person has made you feel like your not thinking right...well if they need to "judge" you then they are the one with the problem!

Just for the record, I am a Happily married 29+4 year young woman. That doesn't make me gay, str8, or bi...it makes me...ME!

Thanks. I appreciate a boost like this and I agree with you. You are right too about some "STUPID" person. I had what I thought was a good likable group of friends that I have known for years. When I finally came out to them last year, I lost every single one of them. They would meet together and pray that I would change. Now I get a phone call every now and then from one of them asking if I am "back to normal" when I say no, they hang up.
It really grinds my gears! Anyways, thanks again for reminding me to be true to myself.

 

[beckmrk04]

Kaelyn,
What exactly is "white bread"? And why are you anti-feminist? Are you anti-voting? Anti-women's education? And although I am a straight, white married 24 year old female, I recognize that all anyone wants are EQUAL rights, not "super rights." They want to go to bed each night with the security that legally recognized marriage provides. If, God forbid, something should happen to their partners, their loved ones, they want to be able to make decisions about their future, just like a husband and wife are able to do. These aren't super rights. They are basic rights that are being denied. They want to be able to show affection in public without people acting like it's some sort of sex show. They want to be able to have families. And they want support and understanding, just like you or I. Please consider that. Maybe your post came off as stronger than you intended. But when you make comments like yours, you are opening yourself to the very thing you seem to want to distance yourself from.

 

[iankh]

Kaelyn,
What exactly is "white bread"? And why are you anti-feminist? Are you anti-voting? Anti-women's education? And although I am a straight, white married 24 year old female, I recognize that all anyone wants are EQUAL rights, not "super rights." They want to go to bed each night with the security that legally recognized marriage provides. If, God forbid, something should happen to their partners, their loved ones, they want to be able to make decisions about their future, just like a husband and wife are able to do. These aren't super rights. They are basic rights that are being denied. They want to be able to show affection in public without people acting like it's some sort of sex show. They want to be able to have families. And they want support and understanding, just like you or I. Please consider that. Maybe your post came off as stronger than you intended. But when you make comments like yours, you are opening yourself to the very thing you seem to want to distance yourself from.

Thank you. Extremely well stated.

 

[mickeymousemom]

Okay, I entered this forum because I haven't been on DIS in awhile and was glad to see that the forum had been started. Then I clicked on this thread. How interesting. I had planned to use this forum the same as any other forum. For tips and hints and the best places to go. I am so glad to see a discussion like this one. I am a 40 yo straight married mother of 3. My best friend thru school(we still keep in touch, but he lives a few states away) was a gay guy. One of DH's best friends is a lesbian. I get SO tired of seeing people act as though its such a horrible thing when gays march, speak, and plead for rights just like I have. I was able to marry the man i loved in a LEGAL and CHRISTIAN ceremony. I am able to use the insurance provided to my DH thru his workplace. If something happens to one of us and we're attached to a respirator(makes me sick thinking of it), the other can make choices that seem the best for us and those decisions would be implemented by the hospital. I fully believe in these rights for EVERYONE. I have always been at a loss as to why being gay is so horrible to some people. It involves loving another person and what is so bad about that? Yes, there are gays who date around for awhile until they find their lifelong partner, and there are others who choose to stay single for life(just as straight people sometimes do). Believe it or not, people of different races, religions, and ethnicities also do this . I have taught my children about all kinds of different people and if one of them chooses(or has been born with) this lifestyle, then as long as they;re happy, so are DH and I! If we happen to be there at the right time, then I will proudly take my children to WDW during gay days, during which I can assure you they won't be at the guests wearing red shirts walking hand in hand. Hatred comes in many forms and I see it alot from so called "deeply religious" people and Christians. Its so incredibly sad. People who are gay are just that. The only thing that makes them different from straights is their ability to be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. We are all human. Chemistry is chemistry and love is love. None of us can help who we love at any given time. We are ALL(regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference) mothers, fathers, factory workers, doctors, best friends, siblings, and on the flip side we are ALL also criminals(some of us use the Dining Plan in the manner in which it supposedly was NOT intended) and non Disney fansrolleyes: ). Pat Robertson exhausts me most of the time. It all comes down to this...

Judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[Kaelyn]

sorry, guys. i didn't mean to bail on this thread, but my newborn had bad reactions to vaccinations on monday, and we have had a rough week. i don't have time to read all the responses now, but i do want to apologize for starting something and for offending people, as i seem to have done. i will just briefly say that my friend was already out when we met and he is fully aware of my feelings and that they don't stop me from loving him or supporting his right to choose that lifestyle as opposed to any other one. i grew up in the "happy valley" of western mass near northampton where gay-ness is shoved down peoples throats and the politics of it all is very hot. i do think that much of what the gay community is after are rights that are above and beyond ~ i also do not have the right to marry anyone i choose ~ and that they bible is very clear about the sinful nature of non-marital sex, and sin that i am guilty of and repentant of myself. i will try to read what has been written and form a better response in the next several days, but please be patient with me! my time between nursings and diapers and vomittings and naps is limited!

 

[SeattleRedBear]

Here's a toast to

disneynutt1225, jackskellingtonsgirl, cityofweasels, Disneyrsh, KittyKitty, WDW Poly Princess, lovethattink, Meezers, Laurajean1014, DMRick, belle of the ball, mickeyfan1, iliketoby, DutchsMommy, chell, MissMichelle, tiggeroo13, swtnikki, DVCajun, themudd4, beckmrk04, mickeymousemom, curiouser, Stacerita, pjpoohbear, kpk89, olbear, Teresa Pitman, Cheshire Figment, Azure, tmt martins, SunFloridaDisney, FergieTCat, mushumadness, gabbysmom04, luvmydogs, FutureAshleyDukes, FionaLovesShrek, MOMOFMNM, Tinker*Shell*Bell, kpm76, SaraMc, horsegirl, WDWPartyof5, doombuggy3, Paul in TX, subtchr, Brian Noble, KatheeME, Skroops, Tiggernut jadie, horsegirl, melomouse, JennyMominRI, Bronte, Wolfen-Sensei

And all the other CSP on these boards and in the world!



Let's hope that some year, we will all be CP.

 

[curiouser]

~ i also do not have the right to marry anyone i choose ~

Kaelyn, I'm genuinely intrigued by your above statement. I'd love for you to expand on it. With the exception of minors (obviously) or another female (in some states) why could you not marry who you choose?

And have you ever stopped to think that for gay people, straightness is shoved down their throats?

Eh, but what the heck.. someone might just stereotype me as just an liberal, opinionated, equalitist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain bread loving, straight white girl. And I am. And proud.

 

[iankh]

Kaelyn, I'm genuinely intrigued by your above statement. I'd love for you to expand on it. With the exception of minors (obviously) or another female (in some states) why could you not marry who you choose?

And have you ever stopped to think that for gay people, straightness is shoved down their throats?

Eh, but what the heck.. someone might just stereotype me as just an liberal, opinionated, equalitist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain bread loving, straight white girl. And I am. And proud.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Mama Twinkles]

Okay, I entered this forum because I haven't been on DIS in awhile and was glad to see that the forum had been started. Then I clicked on this thread. How interesting. I had planned to use this forum the same as any other forum. For tips and hints and the best places to go. I am so glad to see a discussion like this one. I am a 40 yo straight married mother of 3. My best friend thru school(we still keep in touch, but he lives a few states away) was a gay guy. One of DH's best friends is a lesbian. I get SO tired of seeing people act as though its such a horrible thing when gays march, speak, and plead for rights just like I have. I was able to marry the man i loved in a LEGAL and CHRISTIAN ceremony. I am able to use the insurance provided to my DH thru his workplace. If something happens to one of us and we're attached to a respirator(makes me sick thinking of it), the other can make choices that seem the best for us and those decisions would be implemented by the hospital. I fully believe in these rights for EVERYONE. I have always been at a loss as to why being gay is so horrible to some people. It involves loving another person and what is so bad about that? Yes, there are gays who date around for awhile until they find their lifelong partner, and there are others who choose to stay single for life(just as straight people sometimes do). Believe it or not, people of different races, religions, and ethnicities also do this . I have taught my children about all kinds of different people and if one of them chooses(or has been born with) this lifestyle, then as long as they;re happy, so are DH and I! If we happen to be there at the right time, then I will proudly take my children to WDW during gay days, during which I can assure you they won't be at the guests wearing red shirts walking hand in hand. Hatred comes in many forms and I see it alot from so called "deeply religious" people and Christians. Its so incredibly sad. People who are gay are just that. The only thing that makes them different from straights is their ability to be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. We are all human. Chemistry is chemistry and love is love. None of us can help who we love at any given time. We are ALL(regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual preference) mothers, fathers, factory workers, doctors, best friends, siblings, and on the flip side we are ALL also criminals(some of us use the Dining Plan in the manner in which it supposedly was NOT intended) and non Disney fansrolleyes: ). Pat Robertson exhausts me most of the time. It all comes down to this...

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Your post warms my heart. Thank you, mickeymousemom, for being here and for speaking up. You are the kind of mom that other people's kids will come to for support when they realize they are gay, a treasure for any frightened teen.

 

[beckmrk04]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Here here!! Me either..

And SeattleRedBear, Thank you for including me in your cool people toast, I'm honored.

And curiouser, it's as though I found my liberal, opinionated, equalist, pro-womens and gay rights, whole grain loving straight white girl twin. You rock.

To all the LBGT or CSP here: I applaud all of you for your love and courage and support of each other. Never let anyone tell you that your love is wrong. There is too much hate in the world. Be proud of who you are and who you love.

 

[RickinNYC]

Kaelyn, I had already sent you a link to an earlier post on this very board that makes it very obvious why the gay and lesbian community demands EQUAL rights. I will post it here for you once again: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1025178

If, after reading that article, you still feel the need to question our stance and to put our position into one of "super" rights, the clearly your mind cannot be changed. That said, I don't understand your need to continue this line of questioning.

And by the way, it's been said on this thread before, as well as said on the board as a whole, and in the news, text books, etc... It is NOT a lifestyle "choice" which for some reason you keep passively/aggressively suggesting. The only choice involved is whether one decides to accept the fact that one is gay/lesbian OR whether one chooses to do what is more socially, politically and religiously acceptable and put blinders on, get married, have children and risk ruining not just one life but several. If you find that lifestyle "choice" more acceptalbe, then you need to reconsider the true definition of family values.

 

[nwdisgal]

I always cringe when I hear the immorality of homosexuality discussed in the context of religion. Religion should be a positive in peoples lives, or one would hope, but it can have such devastating effects to the contrary.

I have a family member who is deceased largely because her religion told her it was a sin to be gay. She was a devout Catholic (I'm not personally bashing Catholics - just happened to be her sect of the religion that was anti-gay). Anyway, she struggled with her devotion to her faith all her life and being a lesbian. I wonder how different her life would have been, if she had a positive influence of religion in her life rather than a negative one. It seems to me an odd paradox that Christianity is built around Jesus Christ, who represented a loving, non-judgemental person that advocated for the equality of all mankind. Yes, we all have the right to worship freely, but the doctrine of intolerence that comes out of some sects of the Christian faith seems so un-Christian like to me. JMO.

 

[mickeyfan1]

The one thing I can't figure out about kaelyn and a couple of other posters here is are they trying to start some huge fight amongst us? If so, I think that it isn't working. I can't agree with the narrow minded view she has taken, but I am so proud of the gay, lesbians, bi, transgendered, and straight posters who have not taken the bait and have responded in a civil and educated way. Her mind isn't going to be changed, but it is her loss. There will always be prejudice in the world, and in the US. I believe that as time continues more and more acceptance will persevere, rights will be granted, and the world will be a better place.

Remember when the head of Spain declared equal rights for gays last year. THe world didn't come to an end. Canada allows marraige between gays, the world has not ended. And on and on. It's going to happen here, I know it. Perhaps the ultra right conservatives will feel the backlash against their own bigotry. Hiding behind Cristianity won't get it forever, either.

 

[True North]

I am so proud of the gay, lesbians, bi, transgendered, and straight posters who have not taken the bait and have responded in a civil and educated way.

Being from Canada and just finishing the fight for equal marriage, that is the only way for things will get done. Through civil, educated discussions the GLTB community can showcase their need for equality. Through fighting and arguing it become an issue of "us versus them" which is much harder to win.

I am very lucky to be from Canada. I would be interested to hear how one would think the gay community in the United States is trying to obtain "super-rights." I have never heard someone say the GLTB community in Canada has obtained "super-rights" yet our country is so much farther along. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada ensures equality, no matter sex, race, sexual preference, religion, or ethnic background. This equality has ensure all minority rights, which was just seen through the laws regarding same-sex marriage.

The thing I find fun is how often gay rights are mentioned in American news. It seems once a week there is a story about it, whether there is a fight in favour or against. Here the GLTB community as a whole is rearly in the news becuase we have been given equality and there is little else to be said. It may seem like one is looking for super rights, but just by granting equality you will see nothing more is asked for.