Gained Priority Booking at THV!!!

[tjkraz]

This is what I would think is fair and legal for DVC with sample numbers:
Say there were 10 completed treehouses and DVC sold five and had five others in their inventory. If they wanted to give priority booking for a busy time like the 4th of July for 5 of those rooms to people as a sales incentive, that's fine. If they allow people to book all 10 rooms prior to opening up the booking to people who own the points that I don't think would be legal or fair.

Obviously they're not going to sell enough points to impact all treehouses every day of the year or even close. But there are a few key dates that could be a factor. This is going to give these people a booking advantage for next Thanksgiving, Christmas and NY.

How do we know that DVC isn't doing it that way? Just because this was marketed as a "priority booking" doesn't mean they have access to all 60 villas for all dates over the first 15 months.

 

[cigarboo]

Have they even started selling points for SSR again? When I took a tour in early November, they were only selling AKV and BLT...SSR was "officially" sold out. Which leads me to think that ALL of THV still belongs to Disney/DVD and they can do whatever they want to do with it at this point.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

Have they even started selling points for SSR again? When I took a tour in early November, they were only selling AKV and BLT...SSR was "officially" sold out. Which leads me to think that ALL of THV still belongs to Disney/DVD and they can do whatever they want to do with it at this point.

It doesn't matter whether or not they have started selling THV points yet. DVC announced that THV are part of the SSR Complex and that makes those rooms subject to the bylaws and covenents of the SSR DVC association. If THV were their own separate DVC then you would be correct that Disney could do anything they wanted to.

The offering of rooms in a property prior to allowing anybody who owns part of that property to book rooms borders on inpropriety. Our problem is that Disney is too big company to try and fight in court and they know it. So I am sure they feel that they can do whatever they want to.

It seems that DVC is getting more desparate to sell points by doing things like this where it is obvious they are going to inflame their present owners / members. I think whoever gets to attend the owners meeting or welcome home Wednesday should be fairly vocal in expressing their displeasure with DVC's gaming of the rules.

Enjoy your time in the treehouse, this is definitely not you fault or a concern that should effect your vacation.

 

[tjkraz]

It doesn't matter whether or not they have started selling THV points yet. DVC announced that THV are part of the SSR Complex and that makes those rooms subject to the bylaws and covenents of the SSR DVC association. If THV were their own separate DVC then you would be correct that Disney could do anything they wanted to.

The offering of rooms in a property prior to allowing anybody who owns part of that property to book rooms borders on inpropriety. Our problem is that Disney is too big company to try and fight in court and they know it. So I am sure they feel that they can do whatever they want to.

It seems that DVC is getting more desparate to sell points by doing things like this where it is obvious they are going to inflame their present owners / members. I think whoever gets to attend the owners meeting or welcome home Wednesday should be fairly vocal in expressing their displeasure with DVC's gaming of the rules.

You are incorrect.

Disney may have announced its intent to add the Treehouse Villas to SSR, but until that action occurs there are no legal obligations to do so. The charter for SSR has to be formally amended to add additional units to the property. Last time I checked it has been amended 20-some times as new units came on line.

These amendments normally do not occur until a short time before DVC needs those points to sell. The constitution is normall amended to add enough units (points) to satisfy several months worth of sales. The remaining units--even those which are ready for occupancy--are held out of the association and used for cash bookings or promotional incentives.

Take Kidani Village, for example. The entire building is set to be complete by September 2009. However the odds of all of the points being sold by that date are very slim. Even though the new building will have about 320 units, DVC has every right to limit member occupancy to the units which have been added to inventory. That may mean that members can only book 150-200 rooms per night.

The same is true of the Treehouses. In reality, it could be that only 10-20 of the TVH's are added to the SSR condo association prior to the February booking dates. If so, DVC would be well within its rights to limit TVH bookings to that number of units.

In reality, I suspect they will make more rooms available (both at TVH and Kidani) than they have actually sold. If true, DVC is actually going above-and-beyond to accommodate members rather than giving others an improper advantage.

 

[CarolMN]

It doesn't matter whether or not they have started selling THV points yet. DVC announced that THV are part of the SSR Complex and that makes those rooms subject to the bylaws and covenents of the SSR DVC association. If THV were their own separate DVC then you would be correct that Disney could do anything they wanted to.

The offering of rooms in a property prior to allowing anybody who owns part of that property to book rooms borders on inpropriety. Our problem is that Disney is too big company to try and fight in court and they know it. So I am sure they feel that they can do whatever they want to.

It seems that DVC is getting more desparate to sell points by doing things like this where it is obvious they are going to inflame their present owners / members. I think whoever gets to attend the owners meeting or welcome home Wednesday should be fairly vocal in expressing their displeasure with DVC's gaming of the rules.

Enjoy your time in the treehouse, this is definitely not you fault or a concern that should effect your vacation.

With all due respect, I don't think you understand the legalities of DVC timeshare sales. There is no "gaming of the rules" going on. Until the Developer declares the THV units into the condominium, no DVC member can book them for points.

The THV units do not legally belong to members until they are declared into the condominium. The Developer owns them and may choose to rent them out for cash or offer them as sales incentives. Members have no say over undeclared units and no right to reserve them for points.

The developer does not have to declare any of the THV units into the condominium until they begin sales of the points associated with them. They do have to declare enough units to keep ahead of sales.

Once the units are declared, then SSR members will have home resort booking privileges for the declared units (and only for the declared units). Until the units are declared, the Developer / Disney has no obligation whatsoever to make them available to members for points.

 

[bookwormde]

DVC is definitely within their legal rights, it really comes down to a question of “fairness” I doubt BLT members would be happy if 92% of the BLT rooms were reserved by DVC/CRO developer points by Disney in the first months but it would be “legal”.

Bookwormde

 

[disneynutz]

DVC is definitely within their legal rights, it really comes down to a question of “fairness” I doubt BLT members would be happy if 92% of the BLT rooms were reserved by DVC/CRO developer points by Disney in the first months but it would be “legal”.

Bookwormde

Who said Disney cares about being fair? What they do care about is making money.

Existing members don't make DVD money, new members do. DVD has made it quite clear through their actions that they will offer special deals to targeted groups of people to sell points.

Is it fair to other members, no. Does that matter to Disney, no.

 

[CarolMN]

I guess I don't understand the definition of fairness some of you are using.

How is it not "fair" if Disney chooses not to give members access to something members don't own?

If you and I buy a car together (50% each), we should each get to use it 1/2 of the time. That's my definition of fair. If you choose to let a friend use the car when it's your turn, how is that not fair to me?

Members get to use (reserve) the portion of the resorts they purchased, and Disney/Developer gets to use the portion they still own.

If 92% of the BLT is still owned by Disney, then why should members get to reserve more than the 8% of it they own?

If none of the points for the THV have been sold, then why shouldn't the Developer be able to rent them out and keep the resulting $$?

For anyone who doesn't know, this is the way it has worked for all of the DVC resorts. The Developer has always rented out the portions of a DVC resort that were ready for occupancy but not yet declared into the condominium. It's part of the way they make money. In fact, until a resort was fully sold, the majority of the "Member Cash Discounted Rooms" came from the Developer-owned inventory.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

Carol and TJKraz
THV are not developer's property that DVC can play with as they feel until some time in the future.

The official announcements made by Disney and DVC that THV are part of SSR, we've all seen press releases, official communications from DVC, point charts stating THV is part of SSR, ..... and on and on.

Not sure what else anybody would need to convince you or better yet a REAL Judge in a REAL Court that THV are in fact part of SSR. The developer releasing the property for sale is a matter of Florida Property Law and nothing else. Don't write Disney a blank check playing a word game. "The developer" will not be able to have anybody even stay at THV until construction is complete and a C.O. is issued. At that time I am sure DVC will have released those points for sale.

Are either of you lawyers or versed in property law? Before you ask, I am not but THREE of my family members are and they ALL agree that what Disney is doing is shady to say the least and more than likely would not stand up in court (lawyers never speak in absolutes).

DVC has gone WELL beyond a verbal contract in promising THV to be part of SSR, they have issued press releases, point charts as part of SSR and literature to the SSR owners to support this. These actions by Disney are in fact contractual obligations they have entered into.

DVC is jumping the gun on making reservations when they announced that reservations would not be allowed to be made until after Feb 09 by owners of SSR (which the developer also is due to THV being part of SSR). DVC made that date in time and it is a contractual obligation. They did not say that until XXXXX date the THV would be owned and operated by another entity (the developer). This is a new game Disney (which DVC is part of) is playing just because their overall sales are in the tank right now.

Please talk to a lawyer before stating a legal opinion and telling people they are wrong or just dont comment if you are not sure what the law is. But like I said in my original post, Disney is a LARGE company and nobody will proably have the stomache to fight this in court.

I understand you both love Disney, maybe even more than we do, but don't look for excuses for them when they do less than respectable things just because they can.

 

[danielle782001]

I didn't think MS was taking reservations for THV until Feb 2009.

I thought so too

 

[CarolMN]

Jeremy and Susan -

Even though I am not a lawyer, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

I guess I don't understand the definition of fairness some of you are using.

How is it not "fair" if Disney chooses not to give members access to something members don't own?

If you and I buy a car together (50% each), we should each get to use it 1/2 of the time. That's my definition of fair. If you choose to let a friend use the car when it's your turn, how is that not fair to me?

Members get to use (reserve) the portion of the resorts they purchased, and Disney/Developer gets to use the portion they still own.

If 92% of the BLT is still owned by Disney, then why should members get to reserve more than the 8% of it they own?

If none of the points for the THV have been sold, then why shouldn't the Developer be able to rent them out and keep the resulting $$?

For anyone who doesn't know, this is the way it has worked for all of the DVC resorts. The Developer has always rented out the portions of a DVC resort that were ready for occupancy but not yet declared into the condominium. It's part of the way they make money. In fact, until a resort was fully sold, the majority of the "Member Cash Discounted Rooms" came from the Developer-owned inventory.

Carol,

The FAIRNESS is that DVC is booking rooms in THV which is a declared section of SSR prior to the announced start of when rooms can be booked.

Like it or not THV is part of SSR and the points the developer controls are part of the entire SSR property points. DVC can not on a whim say their points can all be booked at 12 or 13 or 15 months ahead of time. Using your logic DVC, "The Developer", would be able to do this at not just THV but also BCV, BWV, VWL, etc.

Now do you think what they are doing is fair??

How much do you think the BWV owners would like to see DVC blocking out prime rooms ahead of when all the other owners are allowed to book. They already can't stand people booking at their precious home when they do it at 7 months.

That is escentially the game DVC is playing here. They set the booking rules and they are breaking them.

 

[Caskbill]

If you look at it, the numbers don't work. Those getting the 3-day 'vacations' have a 15 month window to use it. Does that mean that DVC intends to hold back selling SSR points for the last of the units for at least 15 months?

 

[disneynutz]

The legalize of what DVD can do or not do with undeclared units is not my complaint.

I do object special incentives being given to a select group of people because they bought at a particular sales event. In my opinion it shouldn't matter where you bought your points. Preview Center, telephone, cruise, or roadshow, the incentives should be the same.

 

[Caskbill]

Carol,

The FAIRNESS is that DVC is booking rooms in THV which is a declared section of SSR prior to the announced start of when rooms can be booked.

Like it or not THV is part of SSR and the points the developer controls are part of the entire SSR property points. DVC can not on a whim say their points can all be booked at 12 or 13 or 15 months ahead of time. Using your logic DVC, "The Developer", would be able to do this at not just THV but also BCV, BWV, VWL, etc.

Now do you think what they are doing is fair??

How much do you think the BWV owners would like to see DVC blocking out prime rooms ahead of when all the other owners are allowed to book. They already can't stand people booking at their precious home when they do it at 7 months.

That is escentially the game DVC is playing here. They set the booking rules and they are breaking them.

I agree. Suppose DVC decided to build another wing at BWV. That would be x-number of new points for sale. So DVC could just say they will use all their x-number of points for all the Boardwalk View rooms and give them as incentives to new buyers at a totally different resort and allow them to book earlier than regular BWV owners?

 

[tjkraz]

The FAIRNESS is that DVC is booking rooms in THV which is a declared section of SSR prior to the announced start of when rooms can be booked.

To date none of the treehouses have been declared into inventory, and there is no reason so assume that all 60 will be declared prior to February 8th or even June 1st.

Following is a link to one of the prior amendments to the SSR condo association.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...0080319876&id=DOC167S311.A0&parent=DOC167S311

If you have been following SSR construction over the years, you may know that all 18 of the buildings were open and ready for occupancy by July 2007. However adding units to the Condo Association is a gradual process which occurs as the points are needed for sales This 45th amendment, which added several floors of one of The Grandstand buildings to the Condo Association, was filed on May 22, 2008. That was nearly a year after the building had been occupied.

The legal distinction is that the points represented by that building were wholly owned by DVD until added to the Condo Association. Disney had every right to use those points to rent rooms to cash guests, as sales incentives ("Developer's Points"), to accommodate overflow guests during the "free dining" periods, and so on.

SSR owners have no claim on the units represented by these points until they are in the Association. And Disney is not bound by any DVC rules in deciding how the points are to be used since the units are not part of the DVC program.

Disney could very well hold-back each individual treehouse from booking until the points represented by that treehouse have been purchased.

 

[tjkraz]

I agree. Suppose DVC decided to build another wing at BWV. That would be x-number of new points for sale. So DVC could just say they will use all their x-number of points for all the Boardwalk View rooms and give them as incentives to new buyers at a totally different resort and allow them to book earlier than regular BWV owners?

That would not be legal because the BW View rooms in the current wing ARE part of the BoardWalk Condo Association. Members have a legal right to use their points for those units.

By comparison, the Treehouse Villas are NOT part of the SSR Condo Association.

 

[Jeremy&Susan]

I could care less what DVC is using points not sold for (i.e. developer points).

I do care that DVC is violating the booking window that they set up.

Again the declaration is only interesting for the sale of points, THV is part of SSR, look at the point charts or any of the "OFFICIAL" releases from DVC. They already stated how many units there would be and when owners of SSR could book them, that cat is out of the bag. If DVC had not said that THV were going to be part of SSR prior to Feb '09, then nobody would be bringing this up.

The issue is that THV are part of SSR and subject to the contractual rules we all (except for DVC so it would seem) need to abide by.

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

If you look at it, the numbers don't work. Those getting the 3-day 'vacations' have a 15 month window to use it. Does that mean that DVC intends to hold back selling SSR points for the last of the units for at least 15 months?

I believe (and I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong) that it would only be 8 months and by Feb. three of the months would be gone with DVC yet to sell a single unit.

Why I think this is because of the booking windows-when you get 7 months from the end of that 15 month window every DVC point is equal and the SSR owner advantage would disappear.

 

[tjkraz]

I do care that DVC is violating the booking window that they set up.

Not until the points are LEGALLY part of the Condo Association, they aren't.

Again the declaration is only interesting for the sale of points, THV is part of SSR, look at the point charts or any of the "OFFICIAL" releases from DVC. They already stated how many units there would be and when owners of SSR could book them, that cat is out of the bag. If DVC had not said that THV were going to be part of SSR prior to Feb '09, then nobody would be bringing this up.

As the old saying goes, the devil is in the details.

The "OFFICIAL" press releases by Disney are not binding contracts. Witness the Eagle Pines press release from 2002. Prospective members who may have bought into DVC with the intention of using points at Eagle Pines had no recourse when the project was canceled.

While Disney stated how many treehouses it intends to build, it never said that all of them would be accessible to members on Day One. Again there is a parallel with Kidani. We know they are building 320 units and that it will open on May 1st. However, not all of the rooms will be open then and even more will be held back from member inventory until the corresponding points are sold.

The issue is that THV are part of SSR and subject to the contractual rules we all (except for DVC so it would seem) need to abide by.

They are not legally part of the Saratoga Springs Condominium Association until they are added via amendment. Period.

While your relatives may be lawyers, I would question whether they have a background in Florida timeshare law. Or perhaps they are not well-versed in the circumstances at play here. Most lawyers I know (and I have one in the family, too) tend to avoid rendering legal opinions recklessly.

You could certainly argue that Disney is violating the SPIRIT of the program by giving priority bookings as a sales incentive. But I do not see any evidence of legal transgressions. Once the units are declared, members take precedent and all of the DVC rules apply. But until that time, Disney is not legally bound by any statements made in a press release.