Fun while using FP+ - Fun Because of FP+ ... an Important distinction

[JimmyV]

Interesting concept, isn't it? Pretty pointless, though, if it doesn't match what the people want to do.

What people want is of no consequence if you can mold them to do what you want them to do. If the choice is "spend more days at WDW, or don't go to WDW at all", we all know how that vote is going to come out at the family dinner table. That is what they are counting on. We'll see if it works. I'm guessing "yes".

Forcing people to choose between things of value...another interesting concept. Of course, you better hope* they value you more than the alternative.

* or you could study the matter, but where's the fun in that?

As long as Disney continues to tie in its other revenue streams with its parks, it will always be valued more than the alternative. That is where US will always lag behind. It doesn't have a "Frozen" or "Cars" or "Monsters Inc." or Princess franchises to draw in families with young children. Get the families with young kids to want to go to WDW and you don't need to worry too much about losing them until the kids are tweens or teens. US brings people in with its Transforners and MIB and Simpsons and Spiderman franchises. Those are decidedly not the demographic of families with 2 and 5 year olds. Not sure what sort of study one needs to do to reach that simple conclusion. And I'm not at all sure what sort of "studying" you thing Disney is going to do with its new FP machines. That is not the hardware for its studies. You continue to obliquely refer to "studies" but you can't describe what sort of "studying" you think is going on. I used a plastic admission ticket upon which I imprinted my FP options. The only data that Disney got from me was what three rides I chose for my FPs. They got the exact same data from the old machines. I put in my plastic card (that they knew was mine) and they learned which rides I chose. FP+ doesn't involve the placement of electrodes in my temples. So I'm not sure why you think that FP+ is linked to a new "study".

 

[OtherScott]

What people want is of no consequence if you can mold them to do what you want them to do. If the choice is "spend more days at WDW, or don't go to WDW at all", we all know how that vote is going to come out at the family dinner table. That is what they are counting on. We'll see if it works. I'm guessing "yes".

Oh, so it isn't about giving them what they want...it's about making them believe what you're giving them is what they want. Like Steve Jobs knowing you wanted a phone with a camera and GPS?

As long as Disney continues to tie in its other revenue streams with its parks, it will always be valued more than the alternative. That is where US will always lag behind. It doesn't have a "Frozen" or "Cars" or "Monsters Inc." or Princess franchises to draw in families with young children. Get the families with young kids to want to go to WDW and you don't need to worry too much about losing them until the kids are tweens or teens. US brings people in with its Transforners and MIB and Simpsons and Spiderman franchises. Those are decidedly not the demographic of families with 2 and 5 year olds. Not sure what sort of study one needs to do to reach that simple conclusion.

So Disney makes decisions about what goes into its parks with an eye on its other entertainment products? Next you'll be telling me they market test to project longevity of their titles so they don't spend years building attractions that will be DOA.

And they realize that rather than compete with US, in some areas it might make sense to treat them a strategic partner?

Whoda thunk it?

And I'm not at all sure what sort of "studying" you thing Disney is going to do with its new FP machines. That is not the hardware for its studies. You continue to obliquely refer to "studies" but you can't describe what sort of "studying" you think is going on. I used a plastic admission ticket upon which I imprinted my FP options. The only data that Disney got from me was what three rides I chose for my FPs. They got the exact same data from the old machines. I put in my plastic card (that they knew was mine) and they learned which rides I chose. FP+ doesn't involve the placement of electrodes in my temples. So I'm not sure why you think that FP+ is linked to a new "study".

You're conflating 2 references to "study."

First reference, they've studied the matter before committing $1.5 billion - you haven't.

Second, they collect and analyze data. I think MBs will be mandatory at some point, unless they're shown to be so popular that voluntary use provides a representative sample. How do you think the dinner table argument will go when Junior learns that the new interactive Pixar attraction might say his name based HAL knowing his MB is present.

 

[Shaden]

I have not been back to WDW, since the implementation of FPP (I try to get down every couple of years or so - keeping fingers crossed for Fall.) And I do realize that FPP will probably change before my next visit. I enjoyed the old FP ways, once I learned how to make them work to the max. (Thanks Disboard!). Some of my visits have been all adult, others with grand children and family. Here is my 2 cents worth.

Causation vs Correlation mechanics, is something that is ignored by many people in all sorts of situations, inside and outside of WDW - and has certainly been a huge factor in the discussion here on the Disboards. And your points are valid and true.

However, I do think you missed some of the causal relationship in this like / dislike debate of FP+

Point A - From what I have read here (and to a degree with my own experiences), with FP legacy, folks were able to pull 6+++ fast passes (every 2 hrs?) allowing very little waits and multiple rides on particular attractions - AND -for some this is keystone to their enjoyment. They can no longer do this now beCause of the implementation of FPP This in my mind is causal. Most are not saying that it is not possible for others to have fun at WDW. But for them WDW is ruined. I am taking them at their word, and I hope that WDW makes changes that will mitigate that - and that they will be able in the future to enjoy WDW again.

Points B & C Agree.

Point D Although in general, I will conceded this point... I do have a different perspective. For me, it is more than beneficial to be able to reserve an attraction for a particular time slot. An example.
For my first 2 WDW visits (2 years apart) after TSM opened, I was unable to FP that attraction. I was warned by Disboards, that I needed to be at RP in order to get a FP, since they go quickly. The first time, I did RD and ran to find the FP machine as fast as I could, but just could not outrun all those taller, younger folks who understood where everything is. (Being short does not help in being able to see ahead of the crowd at all). 2 years later, I am ready! I am going to do this!. RD... run, run, run.... mad dash - this is sort of fun. Oh no...hold my side.. watch out, watch out for the stroller.... here! The fast passes that were left were way later than I would be able to be at DHS. Resigned myself to waiting in a long line or forgoing it another visit. I suppose, I could have hired a runner.

If there is an attraction, that I really, really, really want to do, have waited 2 years to do, I am really, really, really glad that I will be able to do it beCause FPP allows me to reserve it and FP legacy was a hit and miss, and it will be another 2 years or so, before I can try for it again. (Enchanted Tales, 7 Dwarfs Mine with my grand daughter are the biggies for me now).

Will my visit be better or worse with the change - I suspect both in one way or another. Will FPP effect the way I tour? Each of my visits are different. and tailored to maximize that visit (whether emphasis is riding the rides, seeing the shows or taking in the atmosphere) I see each trip as a new experience with some old friends - FP would only be one component of my plans. (for me there is no one keystone - except being able to get there). I think I will like FPP -especially if there are some changes made - and beCause of FPP - I know I will be able to see the new attractions and I might not have been able to make that happen otherwise. But I enjoyed what came before and saw legacy FP as an additional benefit. Icing on the cake, not the cake itself, to use another analogy.

However...
If being able to ride without lines, and doing multiple rides is the cake for you - then it is beCause of FPP that cake has been taken away.
If being able to experience new attractions is your reason to visit WDW at this time - FPP might not be the cake - but it might be beCause of FPP, that you can achieve your goals.

Great response !!! Well written and thought out !

 

[Shaden]

I guess I don't understand why anyone feels they can accurately assess someone else's experience.

We can debate the theory and application of FP+ until we are blue in the face. That is a valid and worthwhile debate. But to debate the validity of someone's experience is just bizarre to me - it is THEIR experience....how exactly can anyone else assess it?

There has been a lot of back and forth about FP+....is it making WDW vacations worse for some? Absolutely. So why then, is it so hard to believe it is making it better for other families?

If you read the OP, I did not that I am sure it is genuinely making it better for some ...

 

[Golden Rose]

I've noticed two real schools of people who hate FP+; people who didn't like the change it forces on their touring styles in a negative way, and people who had technical troubles with it actually working as intended. We haven't used it yet, but will next month.

If it works with no technical glitches, it will enhance our vacation and we will have a better vacation because of it. We are a family who should have been using GACs for each visit, but always felt like someone else probably needed them more and we didn't want to abuse the system. We just tried to get FP-s to work around our issues, as long as a family member wasn't in a wheelchair/ECV, in which case we had to use the wheelchair lines when they had them. We are lucky if we can get 4 or 5 hours in a row before the sensory stimulation in the parks becomes too overwhelming. What that means is that FP- only worked for us about half the time. Often the return times would be too late in the day for us, or by the time we got into the parks, the FP-s would be gone. We've ridden TSMM exactly once at WDW, although we've generally gone at least twice a year since it opened. It is DS's favorite ride, but we can't ever seem to get there early enough to get a fast pass we can use.

We absolutely love FP+ in theory. I've already got everyone's favorite rides and meet and greets scheduled for our May trip. If it works, and I believe that to be a big if, it will really enhance our vacation.

 

[magicbob]

Really? You want to bring politics into this discussion? It isn't ugly enough already?

No, I was just giving a silly example (that just happened to be stated by politicians) similar to the type of "spin" going on in many posts. Regardless of WHO said it, the premise that losing your job is a great thing because you'll have more free time is laughable and absurd.

Similiarly, I've seen a lot of posts extolling the virtues of FP+ BECAUSE it makes you do less rides, so you finally get to truly enjoy just soaking in the atmosphere. Personally, I DO like to soak in the atmosphere, but I also like to ride on the rides (which is what the vast majority of visitors are there to do).

Praising FP+ because getting to ride less rides will allow you to better appreciate everything else is like saying getting knocked unconscious is desirable because you can enjoy some peace and quiet.

 

[Kate and Family]

I've noticed two real schools of people who hate FP+; people who didn't like the change it forces on their touring styles in a negative way, and people who had technical troubles with it actually working as intended. We haven't used it yet, but will next month.

This

 

[Shaden]

Similiarly, I've seen a lot of posts extolling the virtues of FP+ BECAUSE it makes you do less rides, so you finally get to truly enjoy just soaking in the atmosphere. Personally, I DO like to soak in the atmosphere, but I also like to ride on the rides (which is what the vast majority of visitors are there to do).

Praising FP+ because getting to ride less rides will allow you to better appreciate everything else is like saying getting knocked unconscious is desirable because you can enjoy some peace and quiet.

This was awesome, dead accurate, but also hilarious.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

No, I was just giving a silly example (that just happened to be stated by politicians) similar to the type of "spin" going on in many posts. Regardless of WHO said it, the premise that losing your job is a great thing because you'll have more free time is laughable and absurd.

Similiarly, I've seen a lot of posts extolling the virtues of FP+ BECAUSE it makes you do less rides, so you finally get to truly enjoy just soaking in the atmosphere. Personally, I DO like to soak in the atmosphere, but I also like to ride on the rides (which is what the vast majority of visitors are there to do).

Praising FP+ because getting to ride less rides will allow you to better appreciate everything else is like saying getting knocked unconscious is desirable because you can enjoy some peace and quiet.

I tend to agree, but since that was not a part of my post (the post that you quoted), you lost me. I stated that FP+ made my vacation more relaxing because I could arrive in the parks later in the day and still enjoy my favorite rides without long waits.

 

[WillAustin]

Praising FP+ because getting to ride less rides will allow you to better appreciate everything else is like saying getting knocked unconscious is desirable because you can enjoy some peace and quiet.

Always looking for the silver lining...

 

[leebee]

I believe that FP+ will CAUSE us to change the way we vacation. I am not looking forward to experiencing FP+ but am trying to keep my anxiety away from the rest of my traveling party. We aren't rope drop people' we are park closers. This means our day starts too late for rope drop; our goal is to be headed out our hotel door by 10am. Because this is the way we chose to tour, we knew we wouldn't be able to FP- TSMM, and if we wanted to ride, it'd mean a LONG SB wait. We knew this going in, but it's the choice we'd make to enjoy our day in the parks in OUR way. We never had an issue with getting FP- for any other ride, and we normally travel either in late August, late June, or early March (during public school and college breaks). We'd use FP- as much as possibly, not running around madly collecting FPs, but using a pass for the "big" ride of the land we were in and riding other rides while waiting for the FP return time. Sometimes, if we had a really late return time, we'd move to another land, pull the FP- there, ride everything, then go back for the previous FP, but usually we managed to juggle the FPs. In a typical 12 hour MK day, we'd ride 15 or more rides, see the evening parade and fireworks, have lunch and supper, and usually squeeze in a Dole whip, too!

I don't see this even being close to feasible with FP+, unless we sacrifice our nights in the park for doing rope drop in the morning. Either way, it will change how we tour and what we are able to do, and that doesn't make me happy. Will we still have fun and love that we are at WDW? Probably. I'd like to say "Of course!" but realistically know that some part of our trip will change enormously, thanks to the reality of FP+. Sleep in and ride fewer rides with longer standby lines, or give up our evenings in the parks and skip parades and fireworks so we can ride more by going to rope drop. Neither option thrills me, especially for the cost. Our touring style- and probably happiness level- will change beCause of FP+.

 

[Davey Jones II]

While some do like FP+, clearly the majority of guests don't-- at least not in its current incarnation. Why else is Disney still promising changes and polling guests about possible modifications to the system?

 

[DougEMG]

Thoughts ? Agree, disagree ?

Good explanation and I agree with you.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Everything you say makes perfect sense. The big chasm in all of this is that the words "fewer rides" are Kryptonite to many, many people. They feel boxed in to a system where Disney is dictating how they should have fun, where a new nanny state has been created whereby Disney is saying: "Look. You are going to do fewer rides. Get over it. You are going to have just as much fun as before. You just have to trust us on this." For many people, going back to the resort for a nap or a swim is not their idea of "fun". So the feuding factions are never going to see eye to eye on any of this.

Exactly. If the system is forcing you to do less rides, then that's not "allowing" you -- that's forcing you! If you find out that you actually prefer that kind of Disney trip, then that's a happy accident. But for most people, that won't be the case! The attractions in a park are the main event; the atmosphere and beauty of the place are important, but they are icing on the cake. I don't know about you, but to me, it's still all about the cake.

Running back to the resort for a nap, or people watching because you're shut out of the rides after using your three FPs -- is that really why you're paying for park tickets every day of your trip? You bought your tickets so that you could make minimal use of everything the park offers?

I'd just like to add that the relentless "glass half full/always a silver lining" philosophy quickly breaks down into absurdity when everything gets a cheery spin. It's a kind of learned helplessness, in which we have no right to get angry about anything, with the implied assumption that we can never change it, so we better just accept it.

In addition, and more specifically, Disney (to their credit) has often shown that they are willing to change in the face of strong public disapproval. One recent example was New Fantasyland. When it was announced, it was all about princesses, and there was an immediate public backlash against that narrow focus. The backlash convinced Disney to get Imagineers working on another ride, which is why we can look forward to the Mine Train in a month or two.

Meanwhile, the "glass half full" crowd probably were talking about how much the girls would enjoy even more princesses.

Another example was DCA 1.0; the extremely negative public reaction convinced Disney to keep adding attractions, and then launch a huge expansion.

Meanwhile, the "glass half full" crowd were probably talking about how we should be happy that Disneyland has a sister park at all, even if the quality isn't there.

In both of these cases, and lots of others, it was the "no, we won't accept this substandard offering" crowd that actually caused things to change and improve.

 

[DougEMG]

This is exactly what Disney wants people to do. (And it is the most effective counter-measure to FP+ besides RD). Which is why I maintain that FP+ is not rocket science, not a study in behavioral science and not chess. It is a "throttle governor" that forces people to slow down and use more of their seven or eight days of vacation at WDW and fewer (if any) at US or Sea World.

"Throttle governor", I like that.

 

[DougEMG]

Praising FP+ because getting to ride less rides will allow you to better appreciate everything else is like saying getting knocked unconscious is desirable because you can enjoy some peace and quiet.

That was funny

 

[NickyKnack]

Interesting post!

I will throw another idea in there...There are studies that show that having too many options doesn't necessarily make us happy. Maybe the limits of FP are making people go do things that they wouldn't have normally done? I'm thinking of the example of the person saying they had a great time at their resort because they left the parks. In that case, you could say that the limit of FP+ forced them to go do that, therefore FP+ was the cause.

But I agree with your premise that you could have always done the same thing with old FP.

Yeah, but if I'm having such a great time at the resort wouldn't it be better to save a couple hundred bucks and skip the 3 rides at the parks altogether? Or better yet - go somewhere else that would be a better use of my money?