Fun while using FP+ - Fun Because of FP+ ... an Important distinction

[JimmyV]

One thing that would be useful would be if people who report back and say that they arrived at RD could tell us if that was what they usually did. For example, we were once-in-a-while RD people. Always at DHS to do the TSM march. And usually at MK when the park opened at 9:00. At 8:00...not so much. But in looking at what we were facing with FP+, (especially being "off site" at the Dolphin with no pre-booking capability), we made RD at every park on every day. We never did this before. And I have to say that our touring success rate on days when the crowds were 8s and 9s was very good. But could I come back here and say that FP+ worked great for us and allowed us to ride repeat attractions and do everything with minimal waits? No. It was RD that did that for us. So if I reported back that: "FP+ was great. We arrvied at RD and did everything we wanted to do with minimal waits, and then got second turns on some of our favorite attractions. We never were able to do this before", this would be misleading. We were never able to do this before because we did not maximize the use of RD. This time we did. However, being able to slot our return time for our second go-round to precisely the time that best fit our schedule absolutely was the result of FP+, and for that, it deserves praise.

Also, I have seen several posts where the poster praises FP+ and then admits that they were able to take advantage of the "no tier" glitch. Well, that is sort of like the "Bank Error In Your Favor" card in Monopoly. It would be hard to praise my bank if I found an extra $100 in my account because of their mistake. "Hey, everyone! You should all switch to my bank because they gave me a free $100 bill!" FP+ cannot be praised (or criticized) unless it is used in the manner that 99% of all the other people have used it or will use it.

Just one example (there are others, but I don't want to write a novel):

I never had a chance to ride coasters like Big Thunder Mountain Railroad in the dark, prior to the introduction of FP+.

But you did. You just had to wait in line. I get that FP+ allows you to book a precise time, (assuming that the time you want is available). But this isn't exactly a magic key that unlocks a door that has heretofore been locked and barricaded. A "long" line at BTMRR from 10:00-closing was usually around 30-40 minutes tops, and even less if there was a late parade. So now, instead of waiting in a 30 minute SB line, you will wait in a 15-20 minute FP return line. FP+ will save you time, but it is not a miracle worker.

We never enter any standby line that says it's over 15 or 20 minutes (depending on the ride). We strongly prefer 5 or 10 minutes.

I'm not sure that you are going to have a love affair with FP+ then.

 

[catra121]

Yea, see, there you go proving exactly my point.

During even most moderate days, let alone busier than moderate days, FPs still become very useful in the morning.

I'll be honest...you lost me on this one. I don't see how saying that they got everything done they normally would PLUS some stuff they never could before (based on the time of year THEY travel and their touring style) proves YOUR point about FP+. They were able to do more and stuff they couldn't do before BECAUSE of FP+.

Just because you could do those same things IF you travelled at a different time of year (which they don't) and IF you toured the parks differently (which they don't)...doesn't mean that THEIR trip wasn't better BECAUSE of FP+.

 

[Magpie]

Yea, see, there you go proving exactly my point.

During even most moderate days, let alone busier than moderate days, FPs still become very useful in the morning.

I'm not sure how that proves your point...?

Fwiw, I added this bit to the post you quoted: "It's also harder to collect FP-, when you're planning to eat lunch before noon, and leave the park by one in the afternoon. We missed out on a lot of FP- simply because the return times were never convenient."

We rarely used FP- in the morning, because it was neither convenient nor necessary. We rarely used it in the evening, because it was often gone. And we didn't experience any worsening of our morning experience on our last trip, compared to previous trips.

We did, however, find that our evening experience was enhanced, thanks to FP+.

 

[Shaden]

I don't understand why people credit it for that.

It's absolutely still possible to have a great trip, but crediting FP+ for something it has nothing to do with is why those types of reports get the comments they do. It's like if someone said "In July I arrived at the park at 1 PM, left at 5, and only got to ride 3 big rides, stupid FP+!!", when a crowded park causes it more than anything, and FP+ helped in that situation. Those people do get called on it, so I don't know why people have such a problem with the "positive" reports getting called on it too.

Great point, this can work in the opposite way as well.

People might, and perhaps have, blamed a bad experience on FP+ ... but if they went on presidents day, or are going to the parks on an 8, 9 or 10 day and aren't going to the recommended park to boot ... pretty hard to blame that on FP+.

 

[Shaden]

I'll be honest...you lost me on this one. I don't see how saying that they got everything done they normally would PLUS some stuff they never could before (based on the time of year THEY travel and their touring style) proves YOUR point about FP+. They were able to do more and stuff they couldn't do before BECAUSE of FP+.

Just because you could do those same things IF you travelled at a different time of year (which they don't) and IF you toured the parks differently (which they don't)...doesn't mean that THEIR trip wasn't better BECAUSE of FP+.

Alright that's fair, point taken.

I think what I was pointing to there is the "walk on" nature of the lines, if they don't enter a line greater than 15 -20 mins, and if they prefer 5 - 10. Same as us by the way. Which is why, even in the mornings when we go, usually "5" level crowd days, FPs are still quite useful in the morning, the headliners still have significant waits 20 and 30mins+ before lunch, and so we skip those.

People are reporting some significant wait times even early in the morning these days, partially because of the impact of FP+, especially on secondary rides.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

FP+ is not the reason they had a great trip, it is the low crowds.

Using this logic, every single post during spring break ranting about FP+ ruining someone's vacation can be discarded because the person went during a period with very high crowds, right? After all, the #1 key to maximizing the number of rides has always been to go during value season. FP- (or FP+) and rope drops help, but not nearly as much as the crowd levels.

You are making the mistake of totally discounting FP+ just because there are other factors in play. Well, there have always been, and will always be, other factors in play.

If I had to list the most important factor for having a great vacation anywhere, it would be the attitude of the traveler. Happiness has to start from within. But I am a "glass is half full" kinda guy.

 

[Magpie]

But you did. You just had to wait in line. I get that FP+ allows you to book a precise time, (assuming that the time you want is available). But this isn't exactly a magic key that unlocks a door that has heretofore been locked and barricaded. A "long" line at BTMRR from 10:00-closing was usually around 30-40 minutes tops, and even less if there was a late parade. So now, instead of waiting in a 30 minute SB line, you will wait in a 15-20 minute FP return line. FP+ will save you time, but it is not a miracle worker.


I'm not sure that you are going to have a love affair with FP+ then.

I'd never wait 30-40 minutes in line. FP+ shortened that wait to a walk on last December, thus making BTMRR a viable choice for us in the evening, when before it wasn't.

I will be returning to Disney next Saturday, to experience MM+ for the second time, so I'll be sure to note how long the FP return lines are. And how much we "get done" and all that other good stuff.

Can't wait!

 

[catra121]

One thing that would be useful would be if people who report back and say that they arrived at RD could tell us if that was what they usually did. For example, we were once-in-a-while RD people. Always at DHS to do the TSM march. And usually at MK when the park opened at 9:00. At 8:00...not so much. But in looking at what we were facing with FP+, (especially being "off site" at the Dolphin with no pre-booking capability), we made RD at every park on every day. We never did this before. And I have to say that our touring success rate on days when the crowds were 8s and 9s was very good. But could I come back here and say that FP+ worked great for us and allowed us to ride repeat attractions and do everything with minimal waits? No. It was RD that did that for us. So if I reported back that: "FP+ was great. We arrvied at RD and did everything we wanted to do with minimal waits, and then got second turns on some of our favorite attractions. We never were able to do this before", this would be misleading. We were never able to do this before because we did not maximize the use of RD. This time we did. However, being able to slot our return time for our second go-round to precisely the time that best fit our schedule absolutely was the result of FP+, and for that, it deserves praise.

Also, I have seen several posts where the poster praises FP+ and then admits that they were able to take advantage of the "no tier" glitch. Well, that is sort of like the "Bank Error In Your Favor" card in Monopoly. It would be hard to praise my bank if I found an extra $100 in my account because of their mistake. "Hey, everyone! You should all switch to my bank because they gave me a free $100 bill!" FP+ cannot be praised (or criticized) unless it is used in the manner that 99% of all the other people have used it or will use it.




But you did. You just had to wait in line. I get that FP+ allows you to book a precise time, (assuming that the time you want is available). But this isn't exactly a magic key that unlocks a door that has heretofore been locked and barricaded. A "long" line at BTMRR from 10:00-closing was usually around 30-40 minutes tops, and even less if there was a late parade. So now, instead of waiting in a 30 minute SB line, you will wait in a 15-20 minute FP return line. FP+ will save you time, but it is not a miracle worker.


I'm not sure that you are going to have a love affair with FP+ then.

But they did say that they would NEVER wait in a standby line that was more than 15-20 minutes...so by their rules (self imposed as they may be) and the way they tour it was not, in fact, possible to ride BTMRR after dark.

 

[JimmyV]

For my trip in January, we used FP+ expecting a disaster. But we decided to use FP+ with a different touring strategy, arriving at the parks much later in the day with late day FP+ reservations. The result was a vacation in which my wife and I were able to relax a lot more while still riding everything that we wanted to ride.

And this is why it becomes so difficult to draw any conclusions about any of this. If you used to be RD people, but no use FP+ to allow you to arrive later, then, by definition, you are doing less rides. You state that you still did everything that you wanted to do, and there is no reason to doubt that. But if you listed all the things that you wanted to do and did, and compared that to the list that other people want to do, that list is likely smaller than most people who do not like FP+. Neither of you is right or wrong. Just different.

And I think this goes back to Shaden's original premise. People who report back that the loved/hated FP+ need to be more specific about expectations and results. If someone posts: "I loved FP+. I was able to arrive late and do everything that I wanted to. The haters just don't know what they are talking about," this statement takes on a whole new meaning once we find out that the person who posted hates thrill rides, when to DHS with no intention of riding ToT or RnR, and spend the day at Beauty and The Beast, Little Mermaid, The Muppets and watching street performers. A great day for them. But many people here would be sorely disappointed with that type of day, and FP+ used under these circumstances tells one very little. But that is really the kind of reporting that we are getting. Vague comments about "doing everything we wanted to do" without more details. For the person who wants to ride RnR 4 times, TSM 3 times and ToT 4 times, they get little useful information from all of this. Neither person's "day" is any better or worse than the other, and one is not more worthy than the other. They are different, and the impact of FP+ on one tells us little on the impact of the other.

 

[JimmyV]

But they did say that they would NEVER wait in a standby line that was more than 15-20 minutes...so by their rules (self imposed as they may be) and the way they tour it was not, in fact, possible to ride BTMRR after dark.

And when the FP+ return line is 15-20 minutes long, then what?

 

[Magpie]

And when the FP+ return line is 15-20 minutes long, then what?

Guess we'll just have to see if that's a problem. It certainly wasn't last December!

 

[poeticdiabetic]

I'm at Disney right now. This is oue 2nd day, so we were at EPCOT yesterday (and also Magic Kingdom.) Here's what I've found:

1. During peak times, you can have standby wait times of 25-30 mins for attractions that you normally would walk-on.

2. The longest wait times was around 3 hours. That was to take a picture with Anna and Elsa.

3. Personally, the only downside to FP+ was the tiering and limiting to one park. Wait times for big rides have been reduced (maximum standby was 110 mins for Soarin and 70 mins for TT. Which was actually low for Spring Break.) The maximum tie that I waited in a line was 30 mins. I rode what I wanted to ride.

4. Standby times were accurate or conservative. I timed it and I always beat their times to the ride.

In short, we are having a ball. You goota be patient because there were two instances that did almost ruin the vacation.

1. When this young man wiped gum off his shoe with some paper and threw it on the floor inside the Soarin ride queue.

2. When this lady lost her mind in anger because she felt she was waiting in line too long as she was trying to get pictures taken with the Faeries.

In summary, patience is a virtue.

 

[LisaTC]

Interesting post, well-thought out and made a lot of sense. I've read a lot of the posts for which you made reference. I think you covered the gamut!

Seemingly there are a plethora of experiences being had with FP+ that may appear FP+ made it better for the poster. (We've all read the horrors/disasters aplenty) I say seem. Perception is reality and that was their perception and that's fine, but will be seen as inaccurate to others and that's fine as well. Everyone is going to have to experience this, tweak this to their own 'way' the best they can. I allege there will become masters of this system at some point. Jury still out, though...like everything else, touring methods will evolve. There's no one-size fits all. Disney is more of a "one size fits many" entity--as long as it benefits Disney.

Some may be equating easier with better for their experience. Not the same, but again...perception. I do understand that some legacy FPs were gone when some park goers arrived making SB their only option. FP+ allows them a later in the day chance to ride when 'maybe' before FP- would have been gone. This is one generally perceived as a FP+ positive. I'm still waiting to read a report from someone who toured like we did. We did ride...a lot!

FP+ is frustrating change for those of us who loved and mastered FP-. We were early morning arrivals and for us FP- worked even better! We liked to come back in the evening at times, but generally, we were first part of the day - get your rides in people. Is it impossible to achieve a once-had experience with the new system? In it's current state, I'm doubtful that the once-had legacy FP touring experience can be achieved...now. That said, I think a different and, perhaps, unexpectedly satisfying experience could be had...eventually. There's still too many wrinkles needing a good ironing out. That isn't to say, I would bemoan anybody's positive FP+ experience. Good onya! Hope it happens to me!

Patience isn't the ability to wait, but the ability to keep a good attitude while waiting...hard to do sometimes!

 

[JimmyV]

Guess we'll just have to see if that's a problem. It certainly wasn't last December!

Remember that in December, a majority of FP returnees were still flashing paper tickets and not fuddling around with the Green Gate Keeper. There have been lots of photos posted here, on FB and on Twitter showing FP return lines. I'm certain that what you experienced in December didn't look anything like that. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3257093

 

[BuckeyeBama]

And this is why it becomes so difficult to draw any conclusions about any of this. If you used to be RD people, but no use FP+ to allow you to arrive later, then, by definition, you are doing less rides.

Not sure that the two are mutually exclusive. We found the we can ride fewer rides and still have just as good a time as when we did more rides. And we discovered this because of FP+. Without FP+ we would have pulled ourselves into the parks early, even on days that we were really tired from all of the races. With FP+, this was not necessary. We had an option not available before and we leveraged it to our great satisfaction.

Again, for us, FP+ was the reason (the cause, if you will) of our having the most relaxing WDW vacation yet. We hope for more of the same in the future.

Still, lest you believe that I am in love with FP+ and just drinking the koolaid, I would gladly sacrifice this edge provided by FP+ for the old system. I preferred FP-.

 

[Magpie]

Remember that in December, a majority of FP returnees were still flashing paper tickets and not fuddling around with the Green Gate Keeper. There have been lots of photos posted here, on FB and on Twitter showing FP return lines. I'm certain that what you experienced in December didn't look anything like that.

I would also question what the crowd levels were with regards to those photos, considering Magic Kingdom only last week experienced a staged closing.

And, as I experienced in December, sometimes you can get backups at the entrance to the FP line, due to people having difficulty scanning their bands, but once you're past that point, it's a straight walk on to the ride. And we never had to wait more than a moment to get to that point either - even if there was a line that looked long before the entrance, it cleared quickly as soon as the CMs got rid of whomever was holding it up. There were a LOT more glitches with bands last December, something that seems to have largely cleared up (according to reports I've read).

As I said, I'll be there next Saturday. Looking forward to having a chance to compare and contrast.

 

[JimmyV]

Not sure that the two are mutually exclusive. We found the we can ride fewer rides and still have just as good a time as when we did more rides. And we discovered this because of FP+. Without FP+ we would have pulled ourselves into the parks early, even on days that we were really tired from all of the races. With FP+, this was not necessary. We had an option not available before and we leveraged it to our great satisfaction.

Again, for us, FP+ was the reason (the cause, if you will) of our having the most relaxing WDW vacation yet. We hope for more of the same in the future.

Still, lest you believe that I am in love with FP+ and just drinking the koolaid, I would gladly sacrifice this edge provided by FP+ for the old system. I preferred FP-.

Everything you say makes perfect sense. The big chasm in all of this is that the words "fewer rides" are Kryptonite to many, many people. They feel boxed in to a system where Disney is dictating how they should have fun, where a new nanny state has been created whereby Disney is saying: "Look. You are going to do fewer rides. Get over it. You are going to have just as much fun as before. You just have to trust us on this." For many people, going back to the resort for a nap or a swim is not their idea of "fun". So the feuding factions are never going to see eye to eye on any of this.

 

[Kate and Family]

Causation, its important in these discussions.

This is something that crops up quite frequently.

Someone posts that they "had a great time because of FP+" or "Had a great time LOVE FP+"

Then people come in and say things like, "Oh awesome, glad the system worked well for you" etc etc ...

Then some more people come in and say "well, actually looking at what you did, you didn't have fun because of FP+, you had fun in spite of it"

And then more people come in and complain about the people pointing out the errors in the OP's logic, and why can't they just admit some people love FP+ etc etc ...

Causation is important.

(Point A) I haven't seen anyone say its not possible to have fun while using FP+, I have seen people say they wont get the same value for their money, or they wont get to do as much as they would like.

People do have legitimate issues about when people come on and try to suggest they had a great time BECAUSE of FP+, when in fact its pretty obvious FP+ had nothing to do with it.

(Point B) A few examples: Someone here posted a rather lengthy thread about how they had the greatest time ever because of FP+, they did a lot less than they wanted to or usually did in the parks, just used their 3 FPs and then generally left the park. Had a lot more down time, spent more time at the resort, and found it very relaxing and nice. That's not really because of FP+, they could have always done that with FP- as well. They seem to have had more fun despite FP+, FP+ limited what they could do in the parks, and they ended up enjoying their down time, which they always could have done.

(Point C) Another example, a few people here have posted how "awesome" FP+ is because they have done SO MUCH by RDing or even worse by RDing and then Staying Late at night. Ummmm yea ? That has nothing to do with FP+. In Fact, they probably would have been able to do much more at RD with FP- ... and they would have still done all those walk ons and low waits late at night. A lot of people talk about how FP+ is awesome because they are RDing and getting so much done, that's not new to FP+, in fact, you are probably getting less done on your RDs then you could have before.

(Point D) Not to say some people haven't pointed out ways in which FP+ HAS been beneficial. People who show up later in the day on busy days, people who talk about what they can book later in the day on arrival day, etc. Very valid points.

In fact I think Spring break, the 8, 9, and 10 days of summer and Christmas are the times FP+ will work the best. Its the other 70% of the year that FP+ is going to have its most negative impact, when on 3s,4s, 5s, 6s, you used to be able to pull FP's throughout the whole day and night, and now will be limited to 3, and longer SB lines, that's going to hurt.

Causation is important. A professor of mine used a great analogy about this: Every day in New York city, a horn sounds on a construction site at noon. Every day in Miami, as soon as that horn sounds in New York city, construction workers take their lunch. Therefore, the New York City horn makes the Miami construction workers go on lunch.

Causation, vs Correlation, the causation is the fact that its noon, not the horn.

Its possible to have a great time in Disney, using FP+, and for FP+ to have had a negative impact on your trip. Its possible to have a great time in Disney, and have had FP+ improve your trip. But its also important to recognize the difference.

I have not been back to WDW, since the implementation of FPP (I try to get down every couple of years or so - keeping fingers crossed for Fall.) And I do realize that FPP will probably change before my next visit. I enjoyed the old FP ways, once I learned how to make them work to the max. (Thanks Disboard!). Some of my visits have been all adult, others with grand children and family. Here is my 2 cents worth.

Causation vs Correlation mechanics, is something that is ignored by many people in all sorts of situations, inside and outside of WDW - and has certainly been a huge factor in the discussion here on the Disboards. And your points are valid and true.

However, I do think you missed some of the causal relationship in this like / dislike debate of FP+

Point A - From what I have read here (and to a degree with my own experiences), with FP legacy, folks were able to pull 6+++ fast passes (every 2 hrs?) allowing very little waits and multiple rides on particular attractions - AND -for some this is keystone to their enjoyment. They can no longer do this now beCause of the implementation of FPP This in my mind is causal. Most are not saying that it is not possible for others to have fun at WDW. But for them WDW is ruined. I am taking them at their word, and I hope that WDW makes changes that will mitigate that - and that they will be able in the future to enjoy WDW again.

Points B & C Agree.

Point D Although in general, I will conceded this point... I do have a different perspective. For me, it is more than beneficial to be able to reserve an attraction for a particular time slot. An example.
For my first 2 WDW visits (2 years apart) after TSM opened, I was unable to FP that attraction. I was warned by Disboards, that I needed to be at RP in order to get a FP, since they go quickly. The first time, I did RD and ran to find the FP machine as fast as I could, but just could not outrun all those taller, younger folks who understood where everything is. (Being short does not help in being able to see ahead of the crowd at all). 2 years later, I am ready! I am going to do this!. RD... run, run, run.... mad dash - this is sort of fun. Oh no...hold my side.. watch out, watch out for the stroller.... here! The fast passes that were left were way later than I would be able to be at DHS. Resigned myself to waiting in a long line or forgoing it another visit. I suppose, I could have hired a runner.

If there is an attraction, that I really, really, really want to do, have waited 2 years to do, I am really, really, really glad that I will be able to do it beCause FPP allows me to reserve it and FP legacy was a hit and miss, and it will be another 2 years or so, before I can try for it again. (Enchanted Tales, 7 Dwarfs Mine with my grand daughter are the biggies for me now).

Will my visit be better or worse with the change - I suspect both in one way or another. Will FPP effect the way I tour? Each of my visits are different. and tailored to maximize that visit (whether emphasis is riding the rides, seeing the shows or taking in the atmosphere) I see each trip as a new experience with some old friends - FP would only be one component of my plans. (for me there is no one keystone - except being able to get there). I think I will like FPP -especially if there are some changes made - and beCause of FPP - I know I will be able to see the new attractions and I might not have been able to make that happen otherwise. But I enjoyed what came before and saw legacy FP as an additional benefit. Icing on the cake, not the cake itself, to use another analogy.

However...
If being able to ride without lines, and doing multiple rides is the cake for you - then it is beCause of FPP that cake has been taken away.
If being able to experience new attractions is your reason to visit WDW at this time - FPP might not be the cake - but it might be beCause of FPP, that you can achieve your goals.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Everything you say makes perfect sense. The big chasm in all of this is that the words "fewer rides" are Kryptonite to many, many people. They feel boxed in to a system where Disney is dictating how they should have fun, where a new nanny state has been created whereby Disney is saying: "Look. You are going to do fewer rides. Get over it. You are going to have just as much fun as before. You just have to trust us on this." For many people, going back to the resort for a nap or a swim is not their idea of "fun". So the feuding factions are never going to see eye to eye on any of this.

Yeah, I get that. I just think that it is nuts that each side works so hard to invalidate the other. That seems to me to be the entire point of this thread - to invalidate posts from people who found FP+ to be a positive in their vacations. Why not just be happy for folks who managed to have a great time using FP+? Even if someone else would have had a horrible time under the exact same conditions, it does not change the fact that the person posting the positive experience had a great time. Even if this doesn't work for everyone, it clearly works for some people.

If there is an enemy to be found in this, that enemy is not posting on the Dis. That is, unless folks see anyone who disagrees with their point of view as the enemy.

 

[Magpie]

Yeah, I get that. I just think that it is nuts that each side works so hard to invalidate the other. That seems to me to be the entire point of this thread - to invalidate posts from people who found FP+ to be a positive in their vacations. Why not just be happy for folks who managed to have a great time using FP+? Even if someone else would have had a horrible time under the exact same conditions, it does not change the fact that the person posting the positive experience had a great time. Even if this doesn't work for everyone, it clearly works for some people.

If there is an enemy to be found in this, that enemy is not posting on the Dis. That is, unless folks see anyone who disagrees with their point of view as the enemy.