Frommer article full of WDW misinformation

[YoHo]

If you only knew what Disney charged for the Poly back in the 70's and early 80's before the Hotel/Motel caste system was invented by Eisner to squeeze more money out of guest.


I wonder if the DOM are going to be singing the joys of "Value" motels when Disney puts in place its plan for Fastpasses for those staying at higher priced Hotels onsite. I have a feeling some might change their tune when they are standing in line for Splash for 2+ hours becasue all of the Fastpasses are being given to those staying at the Poly.

The fast pass rumor has gained significant momentum. Rumors out of Mordor.....er I mean Burbank make it seem more likely.

And yes, I'll reiterate, understanding the way resort prices have changed over the years should offend the average Disney fan. Now don't get me wrong, the Polynesian shouldn't be priced at $79 a night, but there's a large space between $79 and $300-$400.

Disney is and was fully capable of offering a more "Poly-like" experience and a Values price point. They chose not to.

 

[minnie61650]

Oh really?

Because when Caribbean Beach opened up, they gave the same reason. Allowing guests who could not afford to stay onsite stay onsite. And CBR while not the best of the mods certainly follows the design principles AND, when it first opened, it's rack rate was very very close to what the All Stars were when they opened up. Disney just bumped up the costs of the mods to make more profit while giving the guests less and making them think they were doing them a favor.

.........

I do not have the prices of the resorts in 1988 when CBR first opened .I do not have the 1994 prices when the All Star Sports and Music opened.

I do however have the prices 1990 and 1997 in my Birnbaum's books.

The price to stay at CBR in 1990 was $69-$99 depending on season.
The price to stay at a value resort in 1997 was $69-$89 depending on season.
The price for CBR in 1997 was $114-$149 depending on the season.

So yes both CBR and the All Stars stated out priced below $100 but you have to remember 6 years went by between 1988 and 1994.


In 1988:

Cost of a new home: $138,300.00
Median Household Income: $27,225.00
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.22 ($0.25 as of 4/3/88)
Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $1.08
Cost of a dozen eggs: $0.89
Cost of a gallon of Milk: $2.30


In 1994:

Cost of a new home: $154,500.00
Median Household Income: $32,264.00
Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.29
Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $1.11
Cost of a dozen eggs: $0.87
Cost of a gallon of Milk: $2.88


I do not think Disney just bumped up the costs of the mods to make more profit while giving the guests less and making them think they were doing them a favor.

I think Disney's price increases just reflected the increased cost of living.

Just my 2 cents

 

[raidermatt]

I don't think anyone is arguing Pop Century and the Polynesian to be the "same". You're also talking a difference of $300 more per night. I assure you, there are far nicer resorts in the world than the best that Disney has to offer.

The problem isn't in the price. Well, part of it is, but that's got nothing to do with the relative "Disneyness" of those two pictures.

 

[YoHo]

I do not think Disney just bumped up the costs of the mods to make more profit while giving the guests less and making them think they were doing them a favor.

I think Disney's price increases just reflected the increased cost of living.

Just my 2 cents

conveniently this can be quantified. Something I've been working on though not full time. The internet has provided access both to CPI index calculators, but also industry specific calculators and I've had price points on Poly for some time, but it's not ready for internet publication just yet.

By the way, thanks for the info from the Birbaums

 

[EUROPACL]

I do not think Disney just bumped up the costs of the mods to make more profit while giving the guests less and making them think they were doing them a favor.

I think Disney's price increases just reflected the increased cost of living.

Minnie 612452141513165132 ...this really has been done to death before. If you ever can get the search to work try looking up post by DVCLANDBARON....he wrote books on the Disney Caste system created and how prices after they were created by Eisner were not reflective of the CPI or Hotels in general.

 

[YoHo]

It's not a simple game to play and Landbaron was one of those evangelical types.
Disney right now is greedy, Disney in the 70s was stupid and paralyzed. The correct answer was somewhere in the middle, but they went for greedy instead.

 

[EUROPACL]

It's not a simple game to play and Landbaron was one of those evangelical types.
Disney right now is greedy, Disney in the 70s was stupid and paralyzed. The correct answer was somewhere in the middle, but they went for greedy instead.

True and as I remember there really was no hard data on Hotel specific inflation, still it was a pretty accepted fact that prices across the board from early Disney and AE (After Eisner) didn't jive. Didn't Hopemax do some post on this as well? The Baron was a fun read though.

Maybe when AV gets back he can give us a view from the darkside and Lord Vader goals for the company at that time.

 

[YoHo]

Actually, I think Hope found the industry specific numbers and the Poly is still increasing faster.
Not only on base rack rate, but they also added additional service levels including concierge which effectivly increases the average room cost.

I'll have something out on the tubes of the internet soon. I have to use Excel too much at work, so it's hard to work up the desire to do it when I get home.

 

[YoHo]

Doing some rough calculations, The offpeak price for CBR should be $104 in 1997 it was $114 not too shabby. HOWEVER, That's the hotel industry CPI, if you look at the real CPI, it should be $87. So, CBR (in 1997) is probably the best value on property. You are paying exactly what the sharp pencil guys think you should.

I'll attach this that I did a couple months ago. It's the Poly rates. Note that in the 1980s, the price jumped up disproportionatly. Also, be aware that this is only those few points, so we can't drill in and see where the price really changed.

But what you can see is that Disney priced nerely EVERYONE out of the market for the true Disney experience.

This is just the lowest price room. It gets much worse when you look at the most expensive room at the poly, because in the beginning, there were only 2 levels and now there are 3 plus concierge. When you factor in how that cuts into room counts, you get a vision of how evil Disney really was here.

Unfortunalty, that part isn't done yet.

 

[minnie61650]

.......Second of all, No, I've never stayed there. I took one look, suppressed the gag reflex and moved on.

Everyone has they own opinons and sadly yes ,I use to think I would NEVER stay at the All Stars.

That was pre 2001.
In 2001 I went on a budget trip with my sis to Disney and since she was staying at the All Stars I decided DH and I should stay there also so as not to hurt my sisters's feelings. I heard the stories of the tiny rooms and I had seen photos of the "tacky" decor.

Once I was at the All Music I quickly changed my mind. I was intriqued by the normal size details and hardly even noticedthe oversize icons on the builings. I loved the fact that All Star Music has more landscaping than the other values. And the Calypso pool is cute with Donald and friends and it looks very pretty at night:

Here a few of my photos and one from Allearsnet:

.......

When I think of "Disney feel" I'm thinking of the concepts, and execution that were done by those that understood what made Disney great. In other words, Port Orleans has Disney feel, because it is staged and themed the way Disney stages and themes their projects.

The values are just decorated. They have a Disney feel, because it says DISNEY on it, not because they follow the core design principles that made Disney a household name.

I think that All Star Music has Disney feel, because it is staged and pays attention to detail the way Disney pays attention to the details in the parks. The theming is also a bit more subtle at All Star Music.

At least the All Star resorts do not have words like "DUH" plastered all over the buildings.

All Star Music has normal sized props spread around the grounds to help with the theming.

The Jazz area has a New Orleans style fountain:

There is a taxi cab on the "street" in front of Broadway:

There is movie marquee in the Broadway section:

There is a rose garden in the Broadway section at All Star Music:

There is ranch style fencing around a picnic area in the Country Fair section at All Star Music:

JMHO

 

[G8RFAN]

Everyone has they own opinons and sadly yes ,I use to think I would NEVER stay at the All Stars.....

Funny. I know I said the same thing in a post somewhere a while back. My wife and I made a pact to try to stay at every Disney resort at WDW with the exception of the values. We had such an uninspired first stay at a moderate (CBR) that we figured that a value was definitely not a match for us. Our stays at POFQ and CSR changed our tune on the moderates. We even gave CBR a try again and realized that room location can make or break your experience there as we definitely enjoyed it the second time around. One year we had a last minute desire to go to MNSSHP and could not find anything other than ASMu, so we booked it and really enjoyed our stay there. I've got to admit, I would not hesitate to stay at it again (actually we have) and would be open to trying POP.

 

[raidermatt]

This isn't about whether anybody is willing to stay at a value resort. We stay where the budget allows. That's fine.

Nor is it about whether anyone can have a great vacation staying at the All Stars or Pop. They can.

We're talking about what is true Disney. Disney isn't just about decorating something to make it look nice, or even adding a few set pieces. Disney is about putting you into another time and/or place. They make you feel like you are IN a movie set, if not the real thing.

The Poly is the best example of that among the resorts. There's pieces of it in some of the other deluxes. Certainly that was the goal of the Contemporary, though it's a little tough to see now at times.

The Mods do a decent job of this as well, at least the CBR and Port Orleans/Riverside do.

But for the most part, the values are merely decorated. Much like what we do for our kid's birthday parties. If the theme is Cars, we buy the Cars napkins, balloons, and maybe some cutouts for the wall, and we decorate with Cars stuff. We put up a picture of a smiling Lightning McQueen, just like Disney puts up a 100 ft bowling pin.

True Disney would endeavor to put you into Radiator Springs.

The pictures Minnie posted show a glimmer of that kind of effort here and there, but for the most part, it's just decoration.

It's not the room size, or the restaurant selection, or whether or not you can get a Sweedish massage from Inga. Those are standard hotel/resort amenities that are either offered or not and have nothing to really do with what we are talking about.

That doesn't make the values a bad place to stay, nor does it mean there's anything wrong with anybody who stays there and likes it. That's merely a funciton of budget and personal preference.

 

[minnie61650]

Doing some rough calculations, The offpeak price for CBR should be $104 in 1997 it was $114 not too shabby. HOWEVER, That's the hotel industry CPI, if you look at the real CPI, it should be $87. So, CBR (in 1997) is probably the best value on property. You are paying exactly what the sharp pencil guys think you should.

I'll attach this that I did a couple months ago. It's the Poly rates. Note that in the 1980s, the price jumped up disproportionatly. Also, be aware that this is only those few points, so we can't drill in and see where the price really changed.

But what you can see is that Disney priced nerely EVERYONE out of the market for the true Disney experience.

This is just the lowest price room. It gets much worse when you look at the most expensive room at the poly, because in the beginning, there were only 2 levels and now there are 3 plus concierge. When you factor in how that cuts into room counts, you get a vision of how evil Disney really was here.

Unfortunalty, that part isn't done yet.

Thanks for the graph.

 

[RoutemanDan]

........It's not the room size, or the restaurant selection, or whether or not you can get a Sweedish massage from Inga. Those are standard hotel/resort amenities that are either offered or not and have nothing to really do with what we are talking about.

.........

Right on Matt.

Those are the only things that should determine the difference between value, moderate and deluxe pricing.

 

[minnie61650]

.......So what possible reason would anybody have for staying at the values? .....

Disclaimer: these are my reasons and I know these are special reasons that thankfully most of Disney's guests do not need to concider.


I happen to like the theming of All Star Music.

But besides the theming I have special needs and my special needs are fulfilled better at a Disney value resort than they would be at an offsite motel/ hotel or even a Disney mod or Deluxe.

So even though I can well afford to stay at any of Disney's resorts I choose to stay at All Star Music.

I need to rent an electric scooter from an offsite company because I have limited mobility.

The entry door of the values is more handicapped friendly. It is angled and I can get in and out unassisted.

Only the values and CBR have a preferred location I can pay extra for.

I checked into staying at the Hilton in DTD but there is only 1 shuttle that can is Handicapped accesible and I would have to call and make arrangements each time I would be using transportation.

The scooter could be broken down to fit in a trunk but DH has medical issues and the parts would be too heavy.(the batteries weigh about 40 pounds or more each)

Since each Disney bus will only hold 2 WC's or ECV's or 1 of each it is to my advantage to be the 1st or 2ed bus stop for pick up.

So these are the reasons I stay at All Star Music (a value hotel):

1. I can book a preferred room location.
The way All Star Music is laid out it "seems" smaller than most of the other Disney resorts. If I stay in a preferred building I only see the Calypso and Jazz builings on the way to and from the main pool and the bus stop and food court.
Since I stay in preferred room I know I am going to be close to the food court, bus stop, & main pool.

2. I enjoy the theming at the All Stars. All Star Music is also is the quietest of the values. Generally less people stay there and there are more seniors and couples and less young children because children enjoy the themes of the other values more.

3. The bus service at the All Star Music is very good. Since I use an EVC good bus transportation is essential.

4. The entry at the values and Mods are much more Handicap friendly.
I am able to get in and out of my All Star room unassisted. This way my husband can go and play a round of golf and know I can leave my room to relax by the pool if I choose.

Here is the All Star room layout:

All Star room layout

Here is layout of AKL

AKL room layout

 

[rantnnravin]

2. I enjoy the theming at the All Stars. ... children enjoy the themes of the other values more.

i respectfully believe that you mean to say that you and children enjoy the decorations of the values.

i enjoy the theming of Main Street USA - i feel like i'm in a small town in middle america at the turn of the century.. I also enjoy the decorations my town puts up on main street at Christmas, but they don't transport me to another time and place like theming does.

For example, for POP to be themed, the rooms in the 50's sections should have 50's style furniture and such (they were able to do that with Prime Time Cafe at MGM --oops, DHS--, why not here?) Why staple cardboard cutouts of dancers doing the lindy onto the balcony rails of the motel? did they honestly think that no one would notice through the "disguise"??

 

[YoHo]

Disclaimer: these are my reasons and I know these are special reasons that thankfully most of Disney's guests do not need to concider.


I happen to like the theming of All Star Music.

But besides the theming I have special needs and my special needs are fulfilled better at a Disney value resort than they would be at an offsite motel/ hotel or even a Disney mod or Deluxe.

So even though I can well afford to stay at any of Disney's resorts I choose to stay at All Star Music.

I need to rent an electric scooter from an offsite company because I have limited mobility.

The entry door of the values is more handicapped friendly. It is angled and I can get in and out unassisted.

Only the values and CBR have a preferred location I can pay extra for.

I checked into staying at the Hilton in DTD but there is only 1 shuttle that can is Handicapped accesible and I would have to call and make arrangements each time I would be using transportation.

The scooter could be broken down to fit in a trunk but DH has medical issues and the parts would be too heavy.(the batteries weigh about 40 pounds or more each)

Since each Disney bus will only hold 2 WC's or ECV's or 1 of each it is to my advantage to be the 1st or 2ed bus stop for pick up.

So these are the reasons I stay at All Star Music (a value hotel):

1. I can book a preferred room location.
The way All Star Music is laid out it "seems" smaller than most of the other Disney resorts. If I stay in a preferred building I only see the Calypso and Jazz builings on the way to and from the main pool and the bus stop and food court.
Since I stay in preferred room I know I am going to be close to the food court, bus stop, & main pool.

2. I enjoy the theming at the All Stars. All Star Music is also is the quietest of the values. Generally less people stay there and there are more seniors and couples and less young children because children enjoy the themes of the other values more.

3. The bus service at the All Star Music is very good. Since I use an EVC good bus transportation is essential.

4. The entry at the values and Mods are much more Handicap friendly.
I am able to get in and out of my All Star room unassisted. This way my husband can go and play a round of golf and know I can leave my room to relax by the pool if I choose.

Here is the All Star room layout:

All Star room layout

Here is layout of AKL

AKL room layout

So what I find most interesting here is that Disney has failed to make the other resorts as easily accessible for those with mobility needs.

I mean, Accessibility should be a non-issue at any resort of any pricepoint.
Why has Disney made it so much easier at the Values?

 

[minnie61650]

So what I find most interesting here is that Disney has failed to make the other resorts as easily accessible for those with mobility needs.

I mean, Accessibility should be a non-issue at any resort of any pricepoint.
Why has Disney made it so much easier at the Values?

Most of the value resorts were built after ADA so they are ADA compliant as far as I know.

Some of Deluxe resorts might be "grand fathered "in .

Roll in showers for example.
As far as I have been able to find out the CR tower only has 2 rooms with a roll in shower . One is a CL room on the 12th floor and the other is a CL room on the 14th floor.

All (with the exception of 1 Suite in Tokelau Long house) of the HA rooms at the Poly with roll in showers are garden view rooms located in Rapa Nui.
So at the Poly my building location, and my view choices are very limited.(close to none).

I cannot get concierge service at the Poly. We called and even though I offered to stay in Rapa Nui and pay extra I was told that was not possible. I was told to try a different resort. That was not the answer I wanted !

I did email a gentleman who works for All Disabled Americans, Inc.

http://www.adapolice.org/

He called me and we did discuss this problem.

He said that the all room types should be available to me and he feels that Disney is not being compliant. The problem may be that the buildings were built before ADA. But the Poly did undergo extensive renovations and should have been brought up to ADA code at that time.

We may even pursue this further.
He is investigating this issue.

Just an FYI about roll in showers and ADA:

There should be 4 HA rooms and at least 1 of those rooms has to have a roll in for every 100 rooms a hotel/motel has.

As far as the entry at the deluxe resorts they may be compliant for WC but with a scooter I need an angle entry because I need to be next to door so my hands can reach the knob, and I am not blocking the door I wish to open.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[YoHo]

Sounds like they cheaped out on the renovations. It was probably cheaper to make one longhouse ADA compliant rather then make some rooms in all ada compliant.

In particular, you would think they would make at least one concierge level room ADA compliant.

Personally, I don't much care about making a distinction in view at the poly. I like to spend time on the grounds, but I don't sit on the porch much. Still, the option should be there.

 

[dwaters]

This thread has been very interesting to follow, even thought it strayed from the original Frommer's topic a long time ago.

There have been well-written posts on both sides, some with visual aids. I could do without the snarky tone in some, but that's just how some posters are.

Do you think Disney is done building hotels/resorts for now or are there more on the way?