FP+ increasing the standby lines?

[Mac4life30]

I agree. I love TTA but if there is a legit 20 min wait forget it.

When its your shortest wait and you need a break and want to say I rode something then you will wait

I did!!!

 

[JimmyV]

If there was a line there, that's actually a GOOD sign. It means that the crowd is spreading out across different attractions, rather than all crowding up for the few top ones.

If I had to guess, previously, the average visitor would only wait in line for one headliner....then they'd stand in line for a few of the secondarys....then they'd not even both with the "lesser attractions".

Those type of people will now get FP+'s for their secondary attractions, and then feel more relaxed to go on things they normally wouldn't.

Or put another way: If a ride never has a line, then a park should probably consider removing it because it means guests don't like it. If tweaking your current system draws people back to those attractions...its successful.

....or.....it means that rides that usually have a 10-20 minute wait now have a 30-40 minute wait; rides that usually have a 30 minute wait now have a 45-50 minute wait; rides that usually have a 45-60 minute wait have a 90 minute wait; and so on. Which either means that the system is bogging down or that the park is simply very, very crowded. Like a "10" crowded. Crowd re-distribution is certaily one explanation for a wait at TTA, but it is not the only one. A long line at a "walk-on" attraction is not always a "GOOD sign" or a sign that everything is "successful". (Of course, Disney's definition of "successful" could easily be met if the reason for the line is a "Crowd Count" of "10" in early March.)

 

[MrInfinity]

FP lines are longer. The big reason here is the inability of the CMs to marry with the technolgy. In the past, a quick wave of the hand by "dad" with the FP tickets got his entire family of 6 into the FP return line in a nanosecond. Now, each person has to scan their Mickey and the failure rate (due to the system in some cases, but guest error in many others) is unacceptably high right now. Instead of getting waved through, CMs are (correctly) making people "try again. OK, now try again. This time, try turning your wrist a little like this. Wait. The Mickey has to re-set. Now try again. OK. You got the green light. Go ahead."

So what's the wait to get up to the CM just to get a Rider Switch ticket, while other ppl are there scanning their bands? It used to be you just walked up to the CM... I'd say now there's likely to be a small line just to get there, due to the technicalities of using the new scanning system...

Not Spring Break... I'm more interested in the moderate levels that should exist in May. For say Soarin, EE, or Space...

Perhaps this headed toward a "Masterband" that can carry everyone's FP... If you swipe Dad's, it can flash up a number on the LCD which says dad and 5 party members may proceed. It would cut out much of the actual swiping, and the number of transactions to the database. Or, the kids could individually use their own elsewhere if that's desired.

As with the other thread, this one will probably devolve into discussions of earnings calls, increased shopping opportunities, and the ability of people to arrive in the afternoon at a park and utilize the benefits of FP whereas before they could not.

Hehe.. as much as I enjoyed our discussion the other day, we don't need to do it again.

 

[hedberg1661]

When its your shortest wait and you need a break and want to say I rode something then you will wait

I did!!!

Quite true. Shade and relaxation are a luxury in the parks.

 

[JimmyV]

So what's the wait to get up to the CM just to get a Rider Switch ticket, while other ppl are there scanning their bands? It used to be you just walked up to the CM... I'd say now there's likely to be a small line just to get there, due to the technicalities of using the new scanning system...

Have never used Rider Switch, so IDK.

Perhaps this headed toward a "Masterband" that can carry everyone's FP... If you swipe Dad's, it can flash up a number on the LCD which says dad and 5 party members may proceed. It would cut out much of the actual swiping, and the number of transactions to the database. Or, the kids could individually use their own elsewhere if that's desired.

Something is going to have to change. So far, Disney's reaction has been to put "old school" ropes and posts in places where they never were before and to pay CMs to hold sandwich boards showing everyone where the FP return line begins to form because people with FPs were simply not able to find the end of the lines, and were incredulous when they actually got to the right place. Those cannot be permanent fixes, so something has to give.

 

[JeremyGNJ]

I just read that article on EasyWDW and its majorly flawed. It's only examining the standby wait time, and not calculating the "average wait time" per rider.

For example, on a secondary ride where they claim the wait times have INCREASED.....they are not counting the 100 FP+ riders who use it in an hour and have almost no wait at all.

They also don't compare any ride closures. They claim the biggest change seemed to be secondary rides at AK...but fail to mention there's an entire section of AK that is currently closed.

 

[JimmyV]

I just read that article on EasyWDW and its majorly flawed. It's only examining the standby wait time, and not calculating the "average wait time" per rider.

I am not sure that there have been enough crowded days to fully test anything according to Josh's methodology. Actual reports from actual guests seems to be the best indicator, and those reports seem pretty darn consistent.

For example, on a secondary ride where they claim the wait times have INCREASED.....they are not counting the 100 FP+ riders who use it in an hour and have almost no wait at all.

Because of the limit of 3FPs per day, secondary rides don't get much FP play, so factoring in shorter waits for the few people who get a FP for Stitch or Laugh Factory isn't terribly impactful. You also build in the assumption that FP returnees are experiencing "almost no wait at all". The Mickey tap issue makes this untrue to some degree. It is taking FP returnees longer to get through the lines and board than before. In many instances, (like secondary rides), this is negligible. But it is not zero.

 

[redrosesix]

A good take on this. I think this also drives people to find other things to do. Disney must hope this means shop/eat etc. which all cost additional money. I am convinced the whole drive of this program was to increase revenue not enhance the guest experience. Very undisney of them.

Then again I could be wrong and they could add something we aren't thinking about to really enhance things for the guests.

I think they meant to but they blew the budget on MM+. But anything they did would be some time after 7DMR and Avatar Land, so IMO a bit late to make up for it.

I'm back (one week now) standby lines were ridiculous, even given the rather heavy crowds. IASSW was 30-40 min by noon. Most attractions were 60 minutes, headliners were 70-90 min. TTA wound through the queue, out across the walkway, under the TTA track, where a CM held up a green flag marking the end of the line.

Even Pres Week that was always a walk on.

That really shocks me that there was a full fledged line for TTA. If that is the sign of things to come Disney is in major trouble.

Agreed

So what's the wait to get up to the CM just to get a Rider Switch ticket, while other ppl are there scanning their bands? It used to be you just walked up to the CM... I'd say now there's likely to be a small line just to get there, due to the technicalities of using the new scanning system...

Not Spring Break... I'm more interested in the moderate levels that should exist in May. For say Soarin, EE, or Space...

Perhaps this headed toward a "Masterband" that can carry everyone's FP... If you swipe Dad's, it can flash up a number on the LCD which says dad and 5 party members may proceed. It would cut out much of the actual swiping, and the number of transactions to the database. Or, the kids could individually use their own elsewhere if that's desired.


Hehe.. as much as I enjoyed our discussion the other day, we don't need to do it again.

The CMs are already doing this when the line backs up too much ie. just scanning one band from each party. It makes things go much much faster when you don't have to wait for little guys to get the Mickey touch right or for mom to do 4 bands.

We found that most of the queues before the FP+ return line were under 5 minutes for most rides, but at least 10 minutes for rides like BTMRR during our visit. But I don't think that part was ever intended, otherwise the queues would not be roped off ie. it would be a more permanent structure.

I just read that article on EasyWDW and its majorly flawed. It's only examining the standby wait time, and not calculating the "average wait time" per rider.

For example, on a secondary ride where they claim the wait times have INCREASED.....they are not counting the 100 FP+ riders who use it in an hour and have almost no wait at all.

They also don't compare any ride closures. They claim the biggest change seemed to be secondary rides at AK...but fail to mention there's an entire section of AK that is currently closed.

what section?

And I think the intention of the article, and this thread, was to help people with their touring plans. Unless you only do your 3 FPs and then leave, you're going to be waiting in SB lines. If there's a change people need to know.

IMO SB waits are completely unpredictable now. FP return lines have priority over SB, so no matter what the posted wait is you could be in the SB line for a much shorter or much longer time. It just depends whether FP holders showed up to ride, or not, while you were in the SB line. Big change. But people need to find a way to work around it or they'll be missing ADRs and FP windows.

 

[surferdave]

what section?

Camp Minnie/Mickey is gone, together with the old Festival of the Lion King venue.

 

[puffkin]

I also am confused about the logic saying the magic band scanning issues are a big cause of the delays. I get that the lines may be backing up outside until you scan and get in where as before it was much faster to glance at the passes. But at some point in the queue, the FP and Standby lines almost always merge. So if there is no one coming through the FP line or that line is being held up by scanning issues, then they can let more Standby guests through. Its not as though ride vehicles are running empty because FP people aren't in the line.

I can see how this could add to your wait if you were a fast pass user and had additional wait time outside. But....typically you always caught up to the FP line (albeit a shorter) line inside so I just don't get how it would change your overall wait compared to in the past. Theoretically, if the bottleneck moves to the outside, the actual queue bottlenecks should be virtually non-existent then.

 

[redrosesix]

Camp Minnie/Mickey is gone, together with the old Festival of the Lion King venue.

Oh that section. We only ever walked through it to get to FOTLK, and most people we know never went there. There are always attractions closed Jan-Mar (at least one in each park), so having FOTLK closed actually doesn't have that much of an impact on year-to-year comparisons. Like Splash was closed this year, but last year it was BTMRR.

There were more restaurants closed this year though, but it didn't seem to have an impact on the number of tables available -- actually we had less problem getting a table in MK even though Pinocchio's, Casey's, and Tortuga Tavern were closed. That's what makes me think crowd levels were actually lower than last year.

 

[JimmyV]

I also am confused about the logic saying the magic band scanning issues are a big cause of the delays. I get that the lines may be backing up outside until you scan and get in where as before it was much faster to glance at the passes. But at some point in the queue, the FP and Standby lines almost always merge.

Not always. Some rides are dedicating the left side to SB and the right side to FP. So while the FP people do not cut off the SB people, they never actually merge and the SB line only gets to use half the ride even though it might account for 80% of the guests. Again, this is all part of the testing phase and hopefully they will figure this out. At Space Mountain, it would have helped a lot if they had allowed people on the left side to filter in over on the right side, but they did not. I'm hoping they will figure this out. Maybe they already have.

So if there is no one coming through the FP line or that line is being held up by scanning issues, then they can let more Standby guests through. Its not as though ride vehicles are running empty because FP people aren't in the line.

It depends on whether the ride is a fast loader. There is never (or rarely) a point in time when there are virtually no FP returnees, so there is always someone cutting off the SB line unless they operate independently as Space Mt did when we were there.

I can see how this could add to your wait if you were a fast pass user and had additional wait time outside. But....typically you always caught up to the FP line (albeit a shorter) line inside so I just don't get how it would change your overall wait compared to in the past. Theoretically, if the bottleneck moves to the outside, the actual queue bottlenecks should be virtually non-existent then.

Because people's pace of movement is not a constant before and after FP+. Now, the queue backs up outside, and when you finally get through, you can rush through most of the queue area, but eventually you will catch the people in front of you. I suppose if you walked at a very slow pace, (like a typical Disney queue walking pace), you wouldn't actually catch anyone. But if you start to walk fast seeing no one in front of you (which is what most people do), you eventually catch up to the people ahead of you who have slowed down or who have stopped. It's a bit hard to explain, but look at it like the tortoise and the hare. The tortoise gets past the first Mickey and walks slowly through the queue. He never actually catches up with anyone until the very end of the queue, just before boarding. HIs slow pace did not hinder him, because he caught the person in front of him just at the end of the line. Total walking time = 5 minutes. (Same as FP-). The hare gets past the first Mickey and sprints until she catches the group in front of her, but then must slow down until she boards. Sub-Total time sprinting = 1 minute. Sub-Total walking slowly = 4 minutes for a Total of 5 minutes (Same as FP-). So the difference in total wait time in the queue area is nil, meaning that the difference between the overall wait time now versus before is whatever time it took you to get past the first Mickey. That is the area that backs up.

 

[redrosesix]

I also am confused about the logic saying the magic band scanning issues are a big cause of the delays. I get that the lines may be backing up outside until you scan and get in where as before it was much faster to glance at the passes. But at some point in the queue, the FP and Standby lines almost always merge. So if there is no one coming through the FP line or that line is being held up by scanning issues, then they can let more Standby guests through. Its not as though ride vehicles are running empty because FP people aren't in the line.

I can see how this could add to your wait if you were a fast pass user and had additional wait time outside. But....typically you always caught up to the FP line (albeit a shorter) line inside so I just don't get how it would change your overall wait compared to in the past. Theoretically, if the bottleneck moves to the outside, the actual queue bottlenecks should be virtually non-existent then.

Theoretically I think you're right, but there must be a lot more FP+ holders than there were FP- holders. On many of the rides I assumed we would just be walking to the cars or the merge once we got past the first scanner, like with FP-. But no. There were always people ahead of us except for one time on PoTC and the Cinderella M&G. I think if they fixed the bottlenecks outside you'd just spend more time in the FP return line.

Every ride is different -- they don't all merge. And while I never saw cars leave empty I often saw them leave with available seats. It basically depends on how they're loaded.

 

[soccer mom]

The purpose of FP+ is to reduce the number of people standing in line. A by product of this is that standby waits will be longer. The line may not be longer and there may not be as many people in it but the 'wait' for those people will be longer for that ride(but much shorter for their FP+ rides).

The FP lines are shorter than the stand-by lines, BUT they are not shorter than what FP lines use to be before the new system. It just takes too long for everyone to stop and scan. I sure hope things get better. The first week in February this year had the longest lines we have EVER stood in, whether it was FP or stand by.

 

[cgattis]

The purpose of FP+ is to reduce the number of people standing in line. A by product of this is that standby waits will be longer. The line may not be longer and there may not be as many people in it but the 'wait' for those people will be longer for that ride(but much shorter for their FP+ rides).

I think I am starting to catch on to this....the purpose IS to keep people out of lines. That doesn't necessarily mean making the lines faster. It could mean making them long enough that people say "no way am I standing in line for (ride that used to be a walk-on)" and get out of line and spend money. I'm starting to think this really is part of the strategy. Sad, but maybe true.

 

[cgattis]

If there was a line there, that's actually a GOOD sign. It means that the crowd is spreading out across different attractions, rather than all crowding up for the few top ones. If I had to guess, previously, the average visitor would only wait in line for one headliner....then they'd stand in line for a few of the secondarys....then they'd not even both with the "lesser attractions". Those type of people will now get FP+'s for their secondary attractions, and then feel more relaxed to go on things they normally wouldn't. Or put another way: If a ride never has a line, then a park should probably consider removing it because it means guests don't like it. If tweaking your current system draws people back to those attractions...its successful.

Or, replace it with something people DO like instead of spending $$$$ to try to make more $$$$ instead of enhancing the experience for the customers they already have. Crazy idea, huh?

 

[Angel Ariel]

What is not being taken into account is the park attendance on each day.

If park attendance is up then it is very likely all ride lines are too. Many people will not wait over and over again for a 90 minute ride when there are 20-30 minute rides available

What I have read is park attendance is up.

Josh responded in another thread and stated that attendance has been going up each year recently, and that those attendance increases did not result in the changes in wait times like they are seeing this year.

 

[jrjankowski8]

Also if you only get 3 FP options wouldn't there be less FPs out there? Myself I have definitely got more than that in an extended day.

 

[WillAustin]

Also if you only get 3 FP options wouldn't there be less FPs out there? Myself I have definitely got more than that in an extended day.

Not when they want (and push) everyone to use three, including everyone who never got any before.

 

[jrjankowski8]

I'm talking about the times when at 4pm you can still get a SPlash mt. Fastpass for 10pm after you've already got and used FP for thunder mt. Space mt. And buzz