FP+ doesn't make lines longer.

[Airship Ariadne]

Sorry I am not buying it . Not on a low crowd day. Never have I heard such a thing!

It was Dec 2, 2010...sorry I didn't take a timestamped photo of the closed machine but that was what happened.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

But then again, I forgot my first post in the thread...

But you forgot that FP+ kills puppies, brought Ebola to the US, and was spotted with a rifle walking away from the Grassy Knoll.

so yeah, I made a mistake defending a system that has worked well so far for me and my family.

I must hate it because it changed RD strategy for some other people.

 

[wisblue]

Quit mudding the waters. I simply stated the fact that you could get a fast pass for anything you wanted under legacy! Not so under plus. FACT! If you can't grasp that sorry. Move on! Enjoy your day!

I would agree that with paper FP if you went right to one of the attractions that had FP as soon as the park opened you could get a FP for that attraction. Of course, it was a matter of luck whether that FP return time was one you could use without disrupting your preferred touring plan.

For example, if I went right to Space Mountain at opening the return time might be for an hour later. But, an hour later we would want to be on our way to Frontierland for the rides there. It made more sense to just ride and move on. If we hung around Tomorrowland for an hour or more to use the SM FP, the standby lines and FP return times for BTMRR and Splash Mountain would really be inconvenient.

So, yes, getting ONE FP for a ride of your choice was a FACT, but that didn't make it an ADVANTAGE.

 

[cakebaker]

But then again, I forgot my first post in the thread...


so yeah, I made a mistake defending a system that has worked well so far for me and my family.

I must hate it because it changed RD strategy for some other people.

I certainly hope you've learned your lesson!

Like fp+= bad Hate fp+= good.

It's very simple really.

 

[Laketravis]

Good grief. Why do so many threads like this deteriorate into an argument over semantics?

Green eggs and ham. Discuss.

 

[Suvadoo]

Sorry I am not buying it . Not on a low crowd day. Never have I heard such a thing!

Not worth it!

 

[ncdj2013]

This thread is getting really silly. Obviously there is a redistribution of the lines. Some lines will be longer. Some will be shorter. It,s a wash. Get over it.

 

[itchin2go]

blocked!

It's inevitable, isn't it?

 

[JZCubed]

Careful now. This system is no zero sum, and putting it in capital letters doesn't make it so. Coin flipping is, parimutual betting is, but lines at Disney are not. Balking, dynamic costs (the cost to a customer of a ride increases with line wait time), mixed queue strategies…these all contribute to the analysis far beyond a static zero sum game.

First, common sense. After FP+ many attractions now usually have long waits they rarely did before. If you assume attendance hasn't increased, etc etc, the only difference is FP+. OK?

Second, crowd behavior at Disney can be well modeled with fluid dynamics, and FP+ is clearly one of the forces that affects that. It has changed, and that's why.

FP+, according to public Disney statements, was designed as part of MDE to make customers stay at Disney World and not go to other Orlando attractions. FP+, according to their patent application, is part of a crowd management system. Its logical end game is reservations only rides.

You may believe the mean wait time is the same, but the median is a better measure of a customer's cost to ride, and I believe that has significantly increased, with similar SB at headliners and higher SB at rides previously with little SB.

FP+ is difficult to understand, significantly reduces spontaneity, and creates lines where none were before. But, it clearly enables Disney to move toward eliminating the SB line, thus addressing the number one complaint (standing in lines too much). The cost, though, is guest confusion, something that must be addressed.

Disney has shown their reluctance to invest in new and more awesome rides (of the Harry Potter class), so they need to move toward somehow entertaining customers who only get a handful of rides, and have a lot of free time on their hands. Maybe more stores where they can spend more money?

Lines are certainly longer for me.

A cogent response.

But while you are now waiting on longer lines, are you able to attend more, less, or the same number of attractions?

The typical vacationer is now able to enjoy more things because of FP+. Some lines may be longer, but how many lines were avoided by gathering FP+ at-home and not having to traipse hither and yonder gathering FP-.

 

[cakebaker]

It's inevitable, isn't it?

Then you should just do it as fast as you can.

 

[itchin2go]

No, they stay the same. Some are now longer while some are shorter. The net change for an entire day of touring the park is the same.

I don't know for sure whether this is true or not. But the truth is, you don't either.

Positing something as a theory to ponder and discuss is one thing. Announcing it as fact and dismissing everyone who disagrees is another.

For me, I know this. Standby lines for most things have increased. Since I can only choose to FP 3 rides, the majority of the things that I ride in MK will have increased standby lines. With regard to the 3 rides I have FPs for, I would have (a) either done them at rope drop or (b) gotten a FP for them. So my wait times for those will probably neither increase or decrease.

The equation is this (and I think you will agree):

FP ride wait times + Standby ride wait times = Total wait time

If MY FP ride wait times stayed the same as they used to be, and MY Standby ride wait times INCREASED, then my total wait time will increase.

Example: Let's say I rode 10 rides in MK.

Before: Wait times for 3 FP rides = 15 minutes total (5 minutes each)
Before: Wait times for 7 standby rides = 70 minutes (at 10 minutes each)

After: Wait times for 3 FP rides = 15 minutes total (5 minutes each)
After: Wait times for 7 standby rides = 140 minutes (at 20 minutes each)

(Mind you - those are arbitrary numbers. Please don't quarrel with their plausibility - they're just there for example's sake.)

The difference is that I've waited 70 minutes more for the same rides, right?

It's actually impossible to make a blanket statement that EVERYONE'S time will stay the same ... or increase or decrease. However, we do know that the most rides are showing increased standby wait times, and unless you're only riding a few rides over and above your FP rides, it's entirely conceivable that your overall wait time will increase.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

The typical vacationer is now able to enjoy more things because of FP+. Some lines may be longer, but how many lines were avoided by gathering FP+ at-home and not having to traipse hither and yonder gathering FP-.

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

 

[Airship Ariadne]

Green eggs and ham. Discuss.

The weakest of Theodore Giessl's canon...interesting basic point but not up to the level of such works as The Lorax or the Star Belly Sneeches.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Good grief. Why do so many threads like this deteriorate into an argument over semantics?

Green eggs and ham. Discuss.

Let's keep the Universal talk on the Universal boards

 

[IamGroot]

I don't know for sure whether this is true or not. But the truth is, you don't either.

Positing something as a theory to ponder and discuss is one thing. Announcing it as fact and dismissing everyone who disagrees is another.

For me, I know this. Standby lines for most things have increased. Since I can only choose to FP 3 rides, the majority of the things that I ride in MK will have increased standby lines. With regard to the 3 rides I have FPs for, I would have (a) either done them at rope drop or (b) gotten a FP for them. So my wait times for those will probably neither increase or decrease.

The equation is this (and I think you will agree):

FP ride wait times + Standby ride wait times = Total wait time

If MY FP ride wait times stayed the same as they used to be, and MY Standby ride wait times INCREASED, then my total wait time will increase.

Example: Let's say I rode 10 rides in MK.

Before: Wait times for 3 FP rides = 15 minutes total (5 minutes each)
Before: Wait times for 7 standby rides = 70 minutes (at 10 minutes each)

After: Wait times for 3 FP rides = 15 minutes total (5 minutes each)
After: Wait times for 7 standby rides = 140 minutes (at 20 minutes each)

(Mind you - those are arbitrary numbers. Please don't quarrel with their plausibility - they're just there for example's sake.)

The difference is that I've waited 70 minutes more for the same rides, right?

It's actually impossible to make a blanket statement that EVERYONE'S time will stay the same ... or increase or decrease. However, we do know that the most rides are showing increased standby wait times, and unless you're only riding a few rides over and above your FP rides, it's entirely conceivable that your overall wait time will increase.

There is a limited number of ride seats per day, and a limited number of fast passes. So unless attendance is up, or people are riding more rides, waits cannot increase.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a ride previously had 0 wait at all. But let's be real, except for rope drop, everything has at least a couple min wait.

 

[jahber]

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

Really? We hate FP+ because the playing field is more level now? How unAmerican of us! I assume if you ever stay onsite you don't or won't book any FP+ until 30 days out because the 60-day onsite advantage is...well, an uneven playing field.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Just so we're clear, are you saying that you arent able to ride the rides you want now?

You said:

I am not disputing the fact that for the hottest attraction, it was easier to get a FP THAT DAY. Now, you just get them in advance

I bolded the "Now, you just get them in advance." (them = FP+ for the hottest attraction, given the structure of your statement).

I am saying that there is *no* guarantee that you can get a FP+ for the hottest attraction in advance.

I was online when my 60 day window opened. I tried to get just 1 FP+ for the hottest attraction (A&E) - and there was no availability at all during my trip. None. I'm not talking about inconvenient times...just zero. And even subbing the A&E cancellation thread, and trying multiple times/day, I have yet to be able to get even 1 FP+ for A&E during my stay.

I did manage to get FP for A&E for my friends who are there the week after we are, finally..but again, not at their 60 day window. At their 60 day window it was unavailable. In their case, though, subbing the cancellation thread here turned out to be useful and I managed to arrange "trades" with some other DISers.

You made a statement of fact that you just get your FP+ for the hottest attractions in advance now, instead of day of. My point, just so we're clear, is that that is not a fact..it is not a guarantee. You can do your homework, you can be online right at 60 days, and you can stalk the DIS/MDE and sometimes you *still* can't get even 1 FP+ for the hottest attraction, because when that window opens you are no longer accessing a full days worth of FP+. People whose vacation overlaps yours, but starts earlier, start depleting the FP+ pool before you're even eligible to book your FP+.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

But the "typical vacationer" isn't what the anti-FP+ people are worried about, they only care that their old touring styles, and ways to game the system that no longer work and they are up in arms...doesn't matter that the system now is a greater benefit to a greater number of people, they lost their edge over those numbers of people...and that has them freaking out because now the playing field is more level...and that is a "flaw."

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[itchin2go]

There is a limited number of ride seats per day, and a limited number of fast passes. So unless attendance is up, or people are riding more rides, waits cannot increase.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a ride previously had 0 wait at all. But let's be real, except for rope drop, everything has at least a couple min wait.

I don't know how it's possible, but you've read the reports too, right? MOST attractions have increased standby wait times.

 

[Angel Ariel]

First point...not everyone does RD...so this system works for people even if they don't do RD, not liking a system because it doesn't give you an advantage you used to use is a bogus knock against it. Some of us like to sleep in, miss the crowded resort bus line with everyone trying to hit RD, catch the less crowded line to get in an hour or two after opening. FP+ lets anyone get a FP without being in the stampede.

Please don't misunderstand...we, personally, rarely made RD. I know I was using "I", but it was more hypothetical than anything. We have never been the ones there 30 mins before RD...usually we arrive within the 1st hour, but not at RD.

And I also have never knocked the ability to get a FP electronically, without having to be in the stampede. I think that is a plus of FP+, TBH. It's the pre-booking itself that I dislike, not the being able to get it electronically. There are ways Disney could have implemented that aspect, that would accommodate all you discuss above, without having the prebooking.

Second point...if at 12 am on your 60+ day what you wanted isn't available, you try for another day...I alter my.touring plan for the next day (or the 10th) and get it...and don't have to risk altering my touring plan and then still not get it on site.

I did. I tried for A&E on every day of my trip. Nothing. I have 4 day trips, because that's the longest I can with the Armed Forces Salute tickets. At 12am, I tried for my final park day first, and nothing. Tried the other days too..nothing.

I did get 7DMT, thankfully...it was entirely gone for my trip w/I 5-10 mins of the window opening.

I agree it isn't perfect, but I got 7DMT no trouble, even on my first day in the park...I have a FP+ for EVERY ride I consider a MUST DO...except HM because it is closed most of my trip, then it is all out for our last day...oh well, MK is open till 3 am, I'm sure at some point the line will be reasonable enough to ride it.

I have said in other threads that the actual booking of FP+ went smoother than I thought it would. That said, I just do not like planning down to that level of detail that far in advance. If the system were the same, but you couldn't book until park opening (and then you could book 3 FP+ on your phone/app) I'd feel a lot differently.

I appreciate that others do not have an issue with that much planning. I respect that. All I ask is the same respect in return for *not* liking that level of detail so far in advance.