FP - allowed returns later than 1, 2 or more hours??

[maxiesmom]

I've got a question. If the ability to use Fast Passes late was just the way everyone was supposed to do it, just not everyone knew, rather than Disney's considerate provision for when crap happens, then why did they even bother putting an end time on the Fast Pass window?

They obviously intended people to come back in the one hour window that was on the Fast Pass, but just chose not to fight that battle until now. The provision for being able to use it late was probably just intended for the times when unforeseen circumstances such as transportation problems or restaurant issues caused you to be late. But people got wind of it, and started taking advantage of it and it just became the norm for those in the know.

IMO, this is why other nice things (waking up Tink, etc) went away. They went from being unexpected touches, to "Why didn't I get my ____?"

Another poster claims their is an end time because the average person wouldn't understand if there wasn't one. That no one would be able t figure out how to use the fastpass without one.

I agree with you too. Unexpected things go away when people start expecting, really demanding, them. What startd out as letting people use fastpasses because they were honestly late became let everyone on to avoid having to argue with them.

 

[Hannathy]

I agree with you too. Unexpected things go away when people start expecting, really demanding, them. What startd out as letting people use fastpasses because they were honestly late became let everyone on to avoid having to argue with them.

Yep just like they used to do a lot more for you if you were there on your birthday. BUT when people started to lie and stretching the truth about their birthdays - my birthday was yesterday, last week, last month, a day this year- but I'll tell them it is today so I get things then things went away.

 

[magicbob]

the only explanation has to be that people are getting there during the window. The real test would be if the FP lines are longer later in the day, like after fireworks or the parade, when those that were holding on to them would use them. I'll bet they are a lot smaller later in the day now when the rides aren't as busy anyway.

This is another reason why using FPs late was potentially a benefit to other guests (not just the person using it late). Many times, when a FP was used late, the standby line (as well as standby) was already very short by then. Had the FP been used "on time" during the peak of the crowds, it would have meant not only a longer wait for that FP holder, but a longer wait for other people (both in the FP and standby line). Some will argue that THEIR wait later in the day was increased when that late FP was used. But the reality was that late use offered TOTAL flexibility, which means that it was HIGHLY unlikely everyone would show up all at once. Rather than hundreds of people all showing up with FPs when the standby line is already long, those FP holders would be coming back at many different times, diluting the impact of their return on the lines. In fact, whenever we used a late FP, there were so few people in the FP line that people in standby were not having to wait extra time while a sea of FP holders was let on ahead of them. But earlier in the day, with FP holders locked in to returning when both the FP and standby lines were long most certainly would have (and, in some cases, IS now) cause longer waits for both the FP line AND the standby line.

 

[UNCFanatik]

This is another reason why using FPs late was potentially a benefit to other guests (not just the person using it late). Many times, when a FP was used late, the standby line (as well as standby) was already very short by then. Had the FP been used "on time" during the peak of the crowds, it would have meant not only a longer wait for that FP holder, but a longer wait for other people (both in the FP and standby line). Some will argue that THEIR wait later in the day was increased when that late FP was used. But the reality was that late use offered TOTAL flexibility, which means that it was HIGHLY unlikely everyone would show up all at once. Rather than hundreds of people all showing up with FPs when the standby line is already long, those FP holders would be coming back at many different times, diluting the impact of their return on the lines. In fact, whenever we used a late FP, there were so few people in the FP line that people in standby were not having to wait extra time while a sea of FP holders was let on ahead of them. But earlier in the day, with FP holders locked in to returning when both the FP and standby lines were long most certainly would have (and, in some cases, IS now) cause longer waits for both the FP line AND the standby line.

That is an interesting theory. The unknown is how many people actually took advantage of late FPs on any given day. You see a mix of people even on the Dis that were unaware that you could use a FP late. Not to mention the general public that doesnt visit WDW on a regular basis and doesnt know either.

What would you say the % of people is on a given day that took advantage of late FPs? That is the biggest variable in your theory. It would have to be a high % of people who did this to affect the waits you are describing. Dont you think?

 

[mom2rtk]

That is an interesting theory. The unknown is how many people actually took advantage of late FPs on any given day. You see a mix of people even on the Dis that were unaware that you could use a FP late. Not to mention the general public that doesnt visit WDW on a regular basis and doesnt know either.

What would you say the % of people is on a given day that took advantage of late FPs? That is the biggest variable in your theory. It would have to be a high % of people who did this to affect the waits you are describing. Dont you think?

LOL! By reading here in the past month, you would have thought it was an EPIDEMIC!

 

[KellyNY]

I've got a question. If the ability to use Fast Passes late was just the way everyone was supposed to do it, just not everyone knew, rather than Disney's considerate provision for when crap happens, then why did they even bother putting an end time on the Fast Pass window?

They obviously intended people to come back in the one hour window that was on the Fast Pass, but just chose not to fight that battle until now. The provision for being able to use it late was probably just intended for the times when unforeseen circumstances such as transportation problems or restaurant issues caused you to be late. But people got wind of it, and started taking advantage of it and it just became the norm for those in the know.

IMO, this is why other nice things (waking up Tink, etc) went away. They went from being unexpected touches, to "Why didn't I get my ____?"

I absolutely agree with you. it was nice when Disney spread a bit of magic and let people still ride when they were late because things happen, we all humans, but when people started to plan it, it turned from perk into demand. All good things go away when people demand them and ability to use late FPs is just one of them.

 

[larryz]

it was nice when Disney spread a bit of magic and let people still ride when they were late because things happen, we all humans, but when people started to plan it, it turned from perk into demand.

Like most here, I used FastPasses™ within the window until I was told by a CM it was OK to use them any time that day after the window opened.

I've never had to "demand" to use a FP late. But it was nice to have that option when I wanted it.

Frankly, and what gets missed here, is that if I'm getting an FP, it's because I want to ride that ride. 90% of the time, I rode it as soon as the window opened.

Now it will be 100% of the time.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

It would have to be a high % of people who did this to affect the waits you are describing. Dont you think?

+1

I find the paradoxical argument provided by some here amusing. They say it is unfair because so few knew about it, but rampant abuse caused Disney to discontinue the practice.

All good things go away when people demand them and ability to use late FPs is just one of them.

I'm still pretty confident that is not the reason for the change.

 

[magicbob]

That is an interesting theory. The unknown is how many people actually took advantage of late FPs on any given day. You see a mix of people even on the Dis that were unaware that you could use a FP late. Not to mention the general public that doesnt visit WDW on a regular basis and doesnt know either.

What would you say the % of people is on a given day that took advantage of late FPs? That is the biggest variable in your theory. It would have to be a high % of people who did this to affect the waits you are describing. Dont you think?

Regardless of whether late FP use was very rare or an epidemic, it did not have a negative effect.

If very few people actually used FPs late, then how much impact could that have had on those lines later in the day? If there WERE, in fact, long FP lines at the end of day (something that I have yet to see documented... FP and standby wait times are usually SHORTER the later it gets), it could not have been due to late FP use in that case, because only a FEW people were engaged in that practice to begin with. So there must have just been a lot of people showing up on time who's window was during those late hours.

If there are now only a few more people using FP within the window than there was before (i.e. those FEW late users are now on time), then the longer FP lines currently being experienced by some could be attributed to other factors. But that doesn't negate the fact that, if only a few people were using them late, then late FP use could not have been the cause of the supposed long FP lines later in the day.

Let's look at the other possibility, that LOTS of people were using FPs late.

Even if mutlitudes of people were using them late, it wasn't "breaking the system." Those late FP users were showing up at random times, primarily when the lines were short. A couple of posters have reported that late FP use caused long lines later in the day (don't ask me how they know who's FPs were late and who's were within the window). Those posts have been contradicted by numerous other guests' experiences. It's almost universally accepted that the lines get shorter (both FP and standby) later in the evening as families with small children, etc. go home for the day. So, even if LOTS of people were using late FPs in the past, it clearly was not causing big back-ups of the lines. In fact, the opposite is true. Had those FP holders shown up on time (assuming their window was during the peak of the day's crowds) it would have had a greater impact on wait times, because those multitudes would be adding to already long lines rather than waiting until later when waits were shorter for everyone.

 

[mom2rtk]

+1

I find the paradoxical argument provided by some here amusing. They say it is unfair because so few knew about it, but rampant abuse caused Disney to discontinue the practice.

Yep. I wish they'd make up their minds already. Are they mad nobody knew about? Or are they mad everybody knew about it?

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Even if mutlitudes of people were using them late, it wasn't "breaking the system." Those late FP users were showing up at random times, primarily when the lines were short. A couple of posters have reported that late FP use caused long lines later in the day (don't ask me how they know who's FPs were late and who's were within the window). Those posts have been contradicted by numerous other guests' experiences. It's almost universally accepted that the lines get shorter (both FP and standby) later in the evening as families with small children, etc. go home for the day. So, even if LOTS of people were using late FPs in the past, it clearly was not causing big back-ups of the lines. In fact, the opposite is true. Had those FP holders shown up on time (assuming their window was during the peak of the day's crowds) it would have had a greater impact on wait times, because those multitudes would be adding to already long lines rather than waiting until later when waits were shorter for everyone.

One of the most interesting responses I've seen regarding enforcement was from Len Testa of touring plans. He was responding to an article online, I wish I could remember the source. He stated that all the simulations he ran showed that guest would be waiting longer in line due to fastpass enforcement. I do not recall the exact figure but I think it was 15-30 minutes over the whole day. He did not specify if that was all guest or just those who regularly used late FP. If the former then it would show that late FP was definitely not an issue.

 

[UNCFanatik]

Regardless of whether late FP use was very rare or an epidemic, it did not have a negative effect.

Whether or not the lack of FP enforcement had a negative effect in the past is not what I was asking you about.

Based on preliminary reports from the parks on line lengths of SB and FP, you were theorizing that these longer lines were a result of the new enforcement. Personally, I think its too early to tell what the net effect is going to be. It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer. I will be there from May 31st - June 8th. I havent been in 9 years and the last trip was in early December, 2003 so FPs were not an issue at all for us but now will come into play.

Back to your theory, since you are claiming that these longer lines are due to FP enforcement, what % of guests do you think used FP past their return windows? And to support your theory and for it to affect the line lengths now, wouldnt it have to be a high % of people that previously used FPs late but are now forced to use them on time? If so, how do you support that theory just based on evidence on the DIS that several people didnt know you could use FP late much less the general public that by in large doesnt plan to the level of detail that you see on the DIS.

Thoughts?

 

[UNCFanatik]

One of the most interesting responses I've seen regarding enforcement was from Len Testa of touring plans. He was responding to an article online, I wish I could remember the source. He stated that all the simulations he ran showed that guest would be waiting longer in line due to fastpass enforcement. I do not recall the exact figure but I think it was 15-30 minutes over the whole day. He did not specify if that was all guest or just those who regularly used late FP. If the former then it would show that late FP was definitely not an issue.

Here is the article:

http://usat.ly/wKnYQk

 

[magicbob]

Whether or not the lack of FP enforcement had a negative effect in the past is not what I was asking you about.

Based on preliminary reports from the parks on line lengths of SB and FP, you were theorizing that these longer lines were a result of the new enforcement. Personally, I think its too early to tell what the net effect is going to be. It will be interesting to see what happens over the summer. I will be there from May 31st - June 8th. I havent been in 9 years and the last trip was in early December, 2003 so FPs were not an issue at all for us but now will come into play.

Back to your theory, since you are claiming that these longer lines are due to FP enforcement, what % of guests do you think used FP past their return windows? And to support your theory and for it to affect the line lengths now, wouldnt it have to be a high % of people that previously used FPs late but are now forced to use them on time? If so, how do you support that theory just based on evidence on the DIS that several people didnt know you could use FP late much less the general public that by in large doesnt plan to the level of detail that you see on the DIS.

Thoughts?

The supposed negative effect of late FP use in the past IS what a lot of posters here hang their hats on. My last post attempted to address that by showing that it was false regardless of whether late FP use was rare or rampant.

I'm not one of the people trying to argue both sides. I think some of what you're attributing to me, was my effort to point out the same discrepancy. Some people maintain that only a few "in the know" people used late FP, yet many of those same people maintained that the practice was so rampant that Disney finally had to "crack down" on the "rampant abuse." They alternate between these two concepts and cite both situations as having a negative effect. I was merely trying to show that either situation actually had a positive effect.

I DID at one point theorize that enforcement COULD be the reason for the longer FP lines that were recently reported (ok, admittedly my first post referring to this kind of stated it as a fact, but I thought it was sufficiently terse and sarcastic enough not to convey that I considered an absolute fact. I guess I should have added a smiley or something).

I also provided an example that did not support that theory (trying to be intellectually honest in my analysis and not discount any evidence that does not support the theory). Admittedly, the longer FP lines might not be due to more FP users being on time than in the past.

I honestly don't know if the true number of late FP users was very high or very low (kind of subjective when compared to the many guests there). I do think that a fair number of people knew that late use was allowed and that enforcement shoe-horns more people into a finite period of time rather than allowing the freedom to use them when lines are shorter. The end result of that is likely to be longer waits. But, I agree... the jury is still out. Even if longer waits do not result from enforcement, not enforcing the return window did not cause longer waits either. So you have a remedy where there was no problem. The best case scenario is that it does not increase wait times for those who "always used FP on time" but, no matter what, enforcement still has a negative effect on former late users who are now more inconvenienced. The worst case scenario is that enforcement increases waits for everyone. Either way, there is a net negative result.

 

[KellyNY]

Well, it is possible that majority of FP users did not know or did not want to use FP late and at the same time a lot of people used late FPs. We are talking about % here. For system like FP to work majority has to be on time, which is why they never got rid of return time, with a particular % of variations allowed. I think it is totally logical to assume that in years % grew and simply reached tipping point.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Here is the article:

http://usat.ly/wKnYQk

There you go.

I actually just listened to wdwmagic's podcast regarding this subject (episode 993 if you want to google it). Two points of interest. They stated that according to Disney 80% of FP's were used within15 to 20 minutes of their stated window.

Len also stated that he ran several simulations using both late FP and enforced FP for different park entrance times. He said that for a 9AM RD arrival the enforcing FP use did not have any effect on walking and waiting times. For a 10AM entrance it added 12 minutes in additional walking and waiting and for a 11AM entrance it added 25 minutes of additional walking/waiting. So it appears that FP enforcement will not hit the rope drop people as hard. They also discussed how it will signifcantly change strategy and that there may be some rides in which getting a FP isn't even worth doing.

 

[Albytaps]

Well, it is possible that majority of FP users did not know or did not want to use FP late and at the same time a lot of people used late FPs. We are talking about % here. For system like FP to work majority has to be on time, which is why they never got rid of return time, with a particular % of variations allowed. I think it is totally logical to assume that in years % grew and simply reached tipping point.

I was thinking the same thing while reading these last few posts.

The end result of that is likely to be longer waits. But, I agree... the jury is still out. Even if longer waits do not result from enforcement, not enforcing the return window did not cause longer waits either.

I think this is too much generalization. Are you trying to average it in your head throughout the whole day? While I agree that during peak hours the late FPers may have shortened the lines at that time, they might also have cause FP line spikes later that day. So the people that may have went back to their resorts for a break and came back later had to endure the longer lines because of the late FP's.

 

[White_Sox_Fan]

Well, it is possible that majority of FP users did not know or did not want to use FP late and at the same time a lot of people used late FPs. We are talking about % here. For system like FP to work majority has to be on time, which is why they never got rid of return time, with a particular % of variations allowed. I think it is totally logical to assume that in years % grew and simply reached tipping point.

You just said it's possible that a majority of FP users used it on time and that for the system to work a majority have to use it on time. Therefore, under your example, the system worked.

I think the more logical conclusion, when taking all the information we have into consideration, is that this is in preparation for the Nextgen system.

 

[Balt ravens fan]

"It's a pass to return, It's a pass don't be late"
"It's a pass that will make your ADR wait"
"Don't you stress, Don't you frown"
"Don't get mad, Don't get down"
"It's a Fastpass After all"

"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fast, Fast pass"

 

[larryz]

"It's a pass to return, It's a pass don't be late"
"It's a pass that will make your ADR wait"
"Don't you stress, Don't you frown"
"Don't get mad, Don't get down"
"It's a Fastpass After all"

"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fastpass After All"
"It's a Fast, Fast pass"

I'll sing along ...

There's a window here for your ride return
If you miss the window, your time is burned
Go ahead, if you must --
Take the pass, make a fuss,
It's a Fast, Fast, Pass

return to refrain