For what reasons could you be requested to go through the full body scanners?

[sam_gordon]

Only if I am dying, have a significant injury, or need a test to discern whether I have a disease. Barring any other situation, no I don't let any stranger grope me.

I most definitely will not submit to being groped for an insignificant "being chosen at random" reason.

And that's fine. That's totally your choice. I can tell you the secret of how to make sure you won't be "groped" by a TSA agent, and it's fool proof, it works EVERY time...

Do you want to know what it is?

Don't fly on commercial airlines.

 

[sam_gordon]

Let me just say to one and all...

I do not believe the new screening methods are the best solution. I do not know how many terrorists will be stopped because of them. There might be better options out there, I don't know. I'm glad *I'm* not responsible for keeping the airways safe.

But, while I understand people are concerned about what's happening, I think it's being blown out of proportion (thanks to the media and the internet).

 

[Tara]

When we fly to WDW next year, I will have a preteen daughter on the way there and a teen daughter on the way back. I will explain what the scanners do and what they are there for. I have no problems with either DD, DW, DS, or myself going through the scanner.

What if one of your children had a problem with either the scan or pat-down?

 

[sam_gordon]

What if one of your children had a problem with either the scan or pat-down?

Sort of like my kids have a problem with getting a shot at the doctor or getting their throat swabbed for strep? Or like my kids having a problem doing their homework or cleaning up the house?

Again, I explain to them what could happen and what to expect. In some families (I've heard), parents are actually in charge.
On the machine:
"DD, here's what could happen... you might be asked to step into a booth that will sort of look under your clothes to make sure you're not carrying any weapons. Unfortunately, because others have tried to hurt people by taking weapons on planes, we have to go through these steps to make sure everyone is safe. Mommy and Daddy will be right in front/behind you to make sure everything goes ok."

On the manual search:
"DD... this officer (yes, I know she's not a "real" officer) is going to run her hands around your body to make sure you're not carrying any weapons. Mommy and Daddy will be right here to make sure nothing happens that shouldn't happen."

I would probably even ask the TSA agent if I (or DW) can go through the screening first to show the kids what's going to happen.

As has been mentioned somewhere else... I expect by the time we fly in June, all the "clamor" will have settled down. Either because the screenings have changed or because they will be "routine".

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

http://epic.org/privacy/body_scanners/epic_v_dhs_suspension_of_body.html

•Senate to Hold Hearings on TSA, Congress to Examine Impact of Body Scanner Program on Airline Industry: The Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation will hold an oversight hearing on the Transportation Security Administration on November 17, 2010. Hon. John S. Pistole, the TSA Administrator, is expected to testify. EPIC has filed a lawsuit to suspend the body scanner program, calling it "unlawful, invasive, and ineffective." Opposition to the program is growing. The Libertarian Party, the American Pilots Association, Airline CEOs, flyers rights organizations, religious groups, and others are calling for an end to invasive searches at airports. A National Opt-Out Day is scheduled for November 24.

•Senator Collins Responds to EPIC's Request for Hearings on Airport Body Scanners: Senator Susan Collins has sent a letter to EPIC Director Marc Rotenberg and consumer advocate Ralph Nader regarding airport body scanners. Senator Collins stated in the letter "I agree wholeheartedly that TSA must ensure that this new security technology is proven effective and comes with sufficient protections to the health and privacy of all persons." Mr. Rotenberg and Mr. Nader had sent Senator Collins a request for a public hearing about the security agency's body scanner program.

•Tests in Italy Raise New Questions About Airport Body Scanners: Following field tests at international airports in Rome, Milan, Palermo, and Venice, the Italian civil aviation authority, has concluded that airport body scanners are inaccurate and inconvenient. Earlier this year the European Commission stated that body scanners have “raised several serious fundamental rights and health concerns,” and recommending less intrusive measures.

•Ralph Nader and EPIC Urge Senate Hearings on Airport Body Scanners: In letters to Senator Lieberman and Senator Collins, EPIC President Marc Rotenberg and consumer advocate Ralph Nader urged the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs to "convene a public hearing to review the government's deployment of whole-body scanners at passenger security checkpoints in US airports." The Nader/Rotenberg letter states that the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration have "disregarded serious questions concerning the devices' effectiveness, privacy safeguards, and potential health impacts." In a letter to the US Marshall Service, Senators Lieberman and Collins earlier expressed concern about the ability of these devices to store and retain images.

•EPIC Challenge to Airport Body Scanner Program Moves Forward in Federal Court: The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has set a briefing schedule for EPIC v. DHS, No. 10-1157, EPIC's challenge to the airport body scanner program. EPIC has alleged that that the Department of Homeland Security has violated three federal laws (the Administrative Procedures Act, the Privacy Act, and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act) and that the body scanner search itself is unconstitutional, given what the courts have said about the permissible scope of airport screening procedures. EPIC's initial brief will be due November 1, 2010. Subsequent briefs from DHS and EPIC will be due by December 15, 2010. In earlier open government litigation against DHS, EPIC obtained evidence that the devices are designed to store and record images.

•EPIC Presses for Release of Government Documents on Health Risks of Airport Body Scanners: EPIC has filed an appeal with the Transportation Security Administration, challenging the agency's denial of expedited processing and fee waivers for an EPIC Freedom of Information Act request. EPIC's is seeking documents from the TSA concerning full body scanner radiation risks and testing. EPIC challenged the TSA's denial of expedited processing, arguing that by delaying to release of the records, the agency was risking the health of travelers and its own employees. EPIC also argued that the record request was particularly timely, as three US Senators recently wrote to the Department of Homeland Security about the safety of the airport body scanners and the risk to air travelers. Separately, EPIC has urged a federal court to suspend the program, pending an independent review of the health risks and privacy impact.

•Following EPIC FOIA Lawsuit, US Senators Raise Questions About Retention of Body Scanner Images: The Chairman and Ranking Member of the Homeland Security Committee, along with four other Senators, have sent a letter to the head of the US Marshal Service to ask why the federal agency stored more than 35,000 images from whole body imaging scans taken at the Orlando federal courthouse. The letter follows a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, filed by EPIC, in which the Marshal Service was forced to disclose the fact that it had stored body scanner images. EPIC has also filed an emergency motion in federal court to suspend the program, pending a thorough review of the airport body scanner program.

•Senators Question Safety of Airport Body Scanners, Object to Program Expansion: Three U.S. Senators have objected to the Department of Homeland Security's expansion of the airport body scanner program. In a letter to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano, Senators Collins (R-ME), Burr (R-NC), and Coburn (R-OK) have asked "why the Department continues to purchase this technology when legitimate concerns about its safety appear to remain unanswered." The Senators noted that "the issue of radiation associated with the backscatter x-ray AIT machines has not been adequately addressed by TSA." They urged the agency's Chief Medical Officer, working with independent experts, to conduct a review of the health effects on travelers and airport personnel.

 

[Minnie Lor]

Where's my "like" button for all of Grace's posts?

The senator from my state said "I have had my love pats every single flight I have taken, which is at least twice a week, for the last four years of my life, because I have a knee replacement," McCaskill said. "I am wildly excited about the notion that I can walk through a machine instead of getting my dose of love pats."

 

[sam_gordon]

Grace-

I hope things work out in your favor. I will not be upset if the scanners go away. I won't be upset if they stay.

But using the quote Minnie said... Senator McCaskill will continue to get "love pats" if it's found the machines are too intrusive.

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

That's your opinion. MY opinion is the images are NOT equal to a "strip search" (even virtually), because the images I have seen so far are not detailed enough. If someone wants to see naked bodies, the internet is generally not that far away... nor is the local convenience store to pick up the latest Hustler or Playboy/girl.

The pictures I have seen are too graphic to post here on these boards. What does that tell you?

You can see the images here:

http://www.iill.net/wp-content/uploads/images/full-body-scanners.jpg

And BTW, this is one of the 35,000 leaked images that they said "wouldn't be stored" that were obtained from the Orlando Courthouse by a Freedom of Information Act request. Poor woman. She has no control that her image is all over the internet now, even though it's obvious she was a "test subject" of the machine.

 

[ZeroMyHero]

ccgirl, here's a quote from the UCSF faculty I mentioned:

"We would like to put our current concerns into perspective. As longstanding UCSF scientists and physicians, we have witnessed critical errors in decisions that have seriously affected the health of thousands of people in the United States. These unfortunate errors were made because of the failure to recognize potential adverse outcomes of decisions made at the federal level. Crises create a sense of urgency that frequently leads to hasty decisions where unintended consequences are not recognized. Examples include the failure of the CDC to recognize the risk of blood transfusions in the early stages of the AIDS epidemic, approval of drugs and devices by the FDA
without sufficient review, and improper standards set by the EPA, to name a few. Similarly, there has not been sufficient review of the intermediate and long-term effects of radiation exposure associated with airport scanners. There is good reason to believe that these scanners will increase the risk of cancer to children and other vulnerable populations. We are unanimous in believing that the potential health consequences need to be rigorously studied before these scanners are adopted. Modifications that reduce radiation exposure need to be explored as soon as possible."

I think most people would agree that increased risk of cancer = dangerous.

Other PPs have stated that since the scanners and pat-downs are now the rule, everyone must comply irregardless of any issues they might have or forego air travel, so I guess my comment about compliance was for them and not you, ccgirl. If you've done your research and still want to put yourself at risk, you're free to do so. It's your health. In my post, I was referring to the people who have no idea what the risks are, and subsequently allow themselves and their dependent minors to be scanned believing they are totally safe.

This whole thing with the backscatter machines reminds me of stories about the DDT trucks. In the 50's trucks drove through neighborhoods spraying DDT. Kids used to run behind the trucks and play in the spray because it felt good on a hot night. At the time, it was considered to be a state-of-the-art, absolutely safe method of preventing illness through pest control. Funny that it was banned in the US in the 70's. They said it was totally safe!

 

[sam_gordon]

Actually, that image was posted on one of the threads (I think). I don't see that picture as too graphic. There's not enough detail. Yes, you can tell she has breasts, the two halves of her posterior (trying to keep it clean), and a GUN! Yes, "poor woman".

IMO, even if there was no weapon and that picture got out, I don't see ANYWAY she would be recognized... I see no facial features. Heck, you can't tell if she's white, black, hispanic, or zebra.

 

[sam_gordon]

zero-

Should we not allow any new technology to be released to the public until it's been studied for 20 years?

Were the DDT trucks a mistake? Yes. I'm sure the people who made the decision to use them feel bad. But they used the information available to them at the time.

I understand flight crews being hesitant to go through the scanners every day... repeated exposure would "up" the dosage. The same applies for FREQUENT (ie: travelling 4-5 times a week) travellers. I get their concern. Those who fly 1-2, maybe 3 times a year... much ado about nothing.

 

[taitai]

The pictures I have seen are too graphic to post here on these boards. What does that tell you?

You can see the images here:

http://www.iill.net/wp-content/uploads/images/full-body-scanners.jpg

And BTW, this is one of the 35,000 leaked images that they said "wouldn't be stored" that were obtained from the Orlando Courthouse by a Freedom of Information Act request. Poor woman. She has no control that her image is all over the internet now, even though it's obvious she was a "test subject" of the machine.

FYI. This leaked image is FROM the courthouse scanner NOT from TSA. I don't know that the courthouse which also uses the scanner ever said they would never release the images. It is not a TSA scanner but does illustrate the point that they are not only in airports.

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 58 minutes ago 2010-11-17T22:13:36
WASHINGTON — The top boss at the Transportation Security Administration is hearing privacy complaints from angry travelers, advocacy groups — and even members of Congress.

"I'm frankly bothered by the level of these pat downs. I've seen them first-hand in airports in Florida," said Republican Senator George LeMieux, expressing worries about the degree of contact in the pat downs, which include touching the genital region and breasts.
"I wouldn't want my wife to be touched in the way that these folks are being touched. I wouldn't want to be touched that way. And I think that we have to be focused on safety, but there's a balance," he said.

Senators were grilling TSA administrator John Pistole about stepped-up security measures which include full-body X-ray scanners, and if passengers refuse, enhanced pat-down searches.

"I'm wondering why I got both a few weeks ago. I did use my Senate I.D. and was subjected to both," Republican Senator Mike Johanns said during a Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee hearing. "Now, I didn't object to going through the advanced imaging."


Pistole agreed it was important to strike the right balance between safety and privacy, but said most travelers want to fly on a plane with passengers who had been properly screened.

"I recognize the invasiveness of it. I also recognize that the threat is real. The stakes are high, and we must prevail," Pistole said.

Pistole said he has received the new pat-down, as has his boss, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano.

Pistole sought to address a public backlash, saying the pat down usually occurs only if an alarm goes off during the full-body scan or metal detector, or if passengers opt out of the scan.

"It would be a very rare instance for somebody to have a pat down if there wasn't some type of alarm," Pistole said, adding he would look into Johanns' report that he received both.

A "very, very small number" of pat downs are done randomly, he said, "so we can be unpredictable to the terrorists."

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

Anatomical ridicule raises body-scanning concerns
TSA

May 06, 2010|By Marnie Hunter, CNN

A TSA employee is shown from the back in this body scan taken in Atlanta, Georgia.Full-body scanning machines may reveal a little too much, if an incident of workplace violence this week among Transportation Security Administration screeners is any indication.

A TSA worker at Miami International Airport in Florida was arrested for allegedly assaulting a co-worker who had repeatedly teased him about the size of his genitals.

The insults stemmed from an X-ray of the accused captured during a training exercise with the airport's full-body scanning machines, the report said.

Rolando Negrin "stated he could not take the jokes anymore and lost his mind," allegedly striking the victim with a police baton. According to the report, a witness heard Negrin say in Spanish, "get on your knees or I will kill you and you better apoligise [sic]."

In response to the incident, TSA said it has a zero-tolerance policy for workplace violence. "At the same time, we are investigating to determine whether other officers may have violated procedures in a training session with coworkers and committed professional misconduct," the agency said in a statement.

The incident puts the spotlight back on technology some privacy advocates liken to a virtual strip search.

"As far as I'm concerned, this really demonstrates exactly how detailed the images are, exactly how invasive the search is," said John Verdi, senior counsel with the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington-based research center specializing in civil liberties and privacy issues. It receives much of its funding from private foundations.

Verdi said the Miami incident "... also demonstrates that this technology, and the way it's being implemented by TSA, is ripe for abuse."

The TSA screener scuffle is not the only recent case of workplace tension involving the technology. A security worker at London's Heathrow Airport allegedly made lewd comments about a female colleague who mistakenly entered a scanner, according to the UK's Press Association. The accused worker was given a police warning for harassment.

TSA officials stressed that the incident in Miami was internal and did not involve any member of the traveling public. When the technology is used in airports, one screener views the scan in a remote location and does not come into contact with passengers being screened. The images are permanently deleted and never stored, according to the TSA.

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

FYI. This leaked image is FROM the courthouse scanner NOT from TSA. I don't know that the courthouse which also uses the scanner ever said they would never release the images. It is not a TSA scanner but does illustrate the point that they are not only in airports.

AND it also illustrates the point that just because they say the images can't be stored or saved or leaked doesn't mean it's true.

 

[ZeroMyHero]

sam, there were warnings about DDT from scientists beginning in the early 40's. The studies showed that DDT wasn't safe, but it was used anyway because it was a convenient quick-fix to a complex problem, and I believe that's the same thing that's going on with the backscatter machines. It's a quick-fix, but not necessarily a smart one. I want smart solutions, not band-aids that do more damage when you tear them off than if you hadn't used them in the first place.

 

[sam_gordon]

sam, there were warnings about DDT from scientists beginning in the early 40's. The studies showed that DDT wasn't safe, but it was used anyway because it was a convenient quick-fix to a complex problem, and I believe that's the same thing that's going on with the backscatter machines. It's a quick-fix, but not necessarily a smart one. I want smart solutions, not band-aids that do more damage when you tear them off than if you hadn't used them in the first place.

And I'm wondering if the "smart solutions" are too far off? Hindsight is always 20/20.

BTW, I agree with you. The backscatter machines may not be the best solution. However, I don't think simply saying "we need more tests" or "they're dangerous" is the answer. I don't know what the answer is though.

 

[ZeroMyHero]

Rapiscan bought themselves in by lobbying Congress. TSA could have gone with millimeter wave, which allows for more modesty (though not by much) and doesn't have a radiation threat, but Rapiscan's money won out.

Instead of body scans (which the Israelis won't use because they don't detect internal bombs) they need better trained, more skilled personnel (the Israelis employ ex-Mossad agents, for example), bomb-sniffing dogs, even the dreaded profiling. I would be willing to submit myself and my family to a full background check months before I wanted to fly if it meant we wouldn't need to go through a body scanner or get the enhanced pat-down. I'm not sure how these would work or how much each would cost, but since they didn't get the full body scanners on clearance at Wal-Mart the cost of alternatives couldn't be that prohibitive.

I don't profess to have all the answers, but I do feel like this tech has been rammed through without a lot of thought or care as to its long-term impact on travelers. I feel that the TSA is putting on a "safety show" with these things and that despite all the hype, we really aren't any safer with them than we are with just metal detectors and wands. They need to stop trying to keep dangerous things off of planes and start keeping dangerous people off of planes. I mean, how hard is it to get on the no-fly list? It should be pretty easy, but Abdulmutallab's (underwear bomber) own father contacted the State Dept about his increasing radical behavior and the danger it presented, and the info got lost in the shuffle. The no-fly list should be really easy to get on and nearly impossible to get off of.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Sort of like my kids have a problem with getting a shot at the doctor or getting their throat swabbed for strep? Or like my kids having a problem doing their homework or cleaning up the house?

Again, I explain to them what could happen and what to expect. In some families (I've heard), parents are actually in charge.
On the machine:
"DD, here's what could happen... you might be asked to step into a booth that will sort of look under your clothes to make sure you're not carrying any weapons. Unfortunately, because others have tried to hurt people by taking weapons on planes, we have to go through these steps to make sure everyone is safe. Mommy and Daddy will be right in front/behind you to make sure everything goes ok."

On the manual search:
"DD... this officer (yes, I know she's not a "real" officer) is going to run her hands around your body to make sure you're not carrying any weapons. Mommy and Daddy will be right here to make sure nothing happens that shouldn't happen."I would probably even ask the TSA agent if I (or DW) can go through the screening first to show the kids what's going to happen.

As has been mentioned somewhere else... I expect by the time we fly in June, all the "clamor" will have settled down. Either because the screenings have changed or because they will be "routine".

Your appoach does have merit. BUT, how do you know what "shouldn't happen" to you, your kid or your wife? TSA has not released the details of the new intrusive searches, so we don't know what is "OK."

 

[GraceLuvsWDW]

All I know is that I watched the video of the guy who refused-John Tyner-and the TSA agent warned him audibly in the video that he would pass over his thighs multiple times, his buttocks and his groin area. That's when Mr Tyner said "If you touch my junk I'll have you arrested". Then they refused to do the "enhanced pat down" on him. You can watch the entire 13 minute video he took with his cell phone here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqM56e-kRA&feature=related