For the First Time in Forever... I Did Not Enjoy My Vacation to Disney World

[disneysteve]

I just want to weigh in on the crowd issue though. I grew up in the Orlando area until I was 13. And I usually come back and visit every few years. And the crowds really have become insane.

This is so true. I've been visiting WDW since 1978. Back then, crowds were virtually non-existent except during the most peak times. Today, the "off season" crowds probably exceed the peak day crowds back then.

We were there last week, November 8-15. Not Jersey Week. Not a holiday. The crowds were nuts. Yes F&W was still going on but that's only in Epcot. All 4 parks were packed. I've never seen it that busy in November before, even during Jersey Week.

 

[DDLand]

I really hope, with their huge, supposedly high-priority investments in China and Paris now under a dark cloud caused by financial upheaval and civil unrest, that Disney wakes up and realizes what a tremendously successful operation they have going in Florida. I hope in other words, that they listen to feedback from people such as yourself, and weigh it carefully the balance.

Maybe they thought they could treat WDW like a cash cow and condo development play, while the real action happened overseas. But they were wrong. They should start paying more attention to the core business on their home turf.

What you described is the point of view of management in the mid to late 2000s. They used WDW's profit to diversify their properties from the Orlando centric organization it was. More than doubling DCL, Aulani, DCA expansion, HKDL refocusing, Shanghai getting serious, and DVC expansion were all about diversification. Arguably Disney Parks was dangerously dependent on WDW. That's reflected in the early 2000s downturn.

Expansions and capital projects brought up during this time at WDW were about expanding capacity, enhancing and modernizing attraction, and of course bringing in the ecosystem only stronger.

It was in WDW's own managements words "a mature business." I think they were half right and half wrong. At the time was WDW maximized? Probably. Everest didn't move the Resort's attendance in a major way. It fixed DAK at the expense of some of the other three. The three new E Tickets added were enough to increase the parks. Yet by 2010 they reevaluated and realized that the market had grown faster then their draw. Harry Potter proves that.

So Disney set in motion Mine Train, Avatar, and soon realized that Hyperion Wharf wasn't enough.

By late 2013 they had done a complete pivot towards Florida. They launched a DCA style redo of DAK, Disney Springs was now on the docket, and it's about this time we started to hear rumblings of a DHS redo.

Management is committed to big attractions. Here in 2015 we have three big lands announced and/or under construction. Disney Springs is wrapping up and it's big. Disneyland too is committed to spending 1 billion.

The idea you're talking about already happened. Disney realizes the power of strong domestic parks. Wondering why Disneyland is going to start up early 2016? That's about when Shanghai should be finishing.

It's balance, that I agree skewed too much towards international and niche businesses. You can't ignore that they're already moving exactly towards what you're saying while at the same time spending big on Paris and China. It's going to be a balance.

Though don't count Paris, Shanghai, or Hong Kong out. They're just getting started.

 

[loveshak22]

This is so true. I've been visiting WDW since 1978. Back then, crowds were virtually non-existent except during the most peak times. Today, the "off season" crowds probably exceed the peak day crowds back then.

We were there last week, November 8-15. Not Jersey Week. Not a holiday. The crowds were nuts. Yes F&W was still going on but that's only in Epcot. All 4 parks were packed. I've never seen it that busy in November before, even during Jersey Week.

And, I meant to add in my first post, that high crowds aren't just about longer lines. It just makes everything more chaotic - getting around, trying to walk through the parks and enjoy the sites, and shows, standing and waiting for buses...a Disney trip really starts to lose its appeal. Like I mentioned, our plan to get there PPO and our FP strategy helped us with wait times but then the parks got so crowded we left.

 

[Firebird060]

I agree with everything you said DDLAND.

But in saying that you know we live in a I want it Now society and everyone hates waiting. I fully believe that Disney may announce a 5th gate within the next 10 years but people will be still be complaining about how long it takes. The best thing and worst thing for Disney was how fast that Universal has expanded and gotten construction done

 

[disneysteve]

And, I meant to add in my first post, that high crowds aren't just about longer lines. It just makes everything more chaotic - getting around, trying to walk through the parks and enjoy the sites, and shows, standing and waiting for buses

Absolutely. Also, driving around property. We stay offsite and use our car. We have definitely seen an increase in traffic. And the worst part about that is that the majority of people on the road don't have a clue what the hell they're doing or where they're going which is particularly annoying to those of us who do. I commented to my wife last week that I don't consider myself a tourist when I'm there even though I live 1,000 miles away. I know those roads as well as I know my own neighborhood.

And walking around the parks is like walking through Times Square anymore. It is just packed everywhere all the time. I don't really know that there is anything that Disney can do about it either unless they start closing the gates and that isn't going to happen. A 5th park might help but there's no way that's happening for 10 years minimum. It will be 5 before they finish Star Wars, Toy Story, and Avatar.

 

[Firebird060]

The 5th gate thing will only happen really if the global economy continues to recover and people can continue to afford Disney. Not having another economic crash for another 20 years will be a big thing for Disney when it comes to increased crowd levels and need for more park space.

 

[rteetz]

The 5th gate thing will only happen really if the global economy continues to recover and people can continue to afford Disney. Not having another economic crash for another 20 years will be a big thing for Disney when it comes to increased crowd levels and need for more park space.

I don't see a 5th gate for another at least 10-15 years if ever. With ongoing projects a 5th hate could cannabilize existing parks except for MK. For example when AK opened attendance at DHS and Epcot dropped a bit before rebounding.

 

[Firebird060]

the cannibalism of park guests will happens, but at least it is happening on Disney property. Right now although crowd levels are high, they are not so high that MK is closing for capacity every day. This is the best time for them to do the expansions they are currently doing, before crowd levels become more than they can legally handle.

I still think one of the major issues with opening a fifth gate has as much to do with park attendance as it does to labor force. A fifth gate will require a lot more cast members both inside the park and supporting park functions. You could be able to print money, like Disney has in the past but if you do not have the labor force to operate properly than its hard to provide the basic needs of a functioning park

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

I don't see a 5th gate for another at least 10-15 years if ever. With ongoing projects a 5th hate could cannabilize existing parks except for MK. For example when AK opened attendance at DHS and Epcot dropped a bit before rebounding.

True. Though back in 2013 some here said theme park expansions would never happen again because of the cost of DVC expansion. But the new park expansions aren't just going to serve to absorb crowding at DHS and DAK by giving people more E-tickets and things to do. They're going to attract even more people across the board--new visitors and more frequent existing visitors--and probably increase crowding overall at all four theme parks. Look at Anaheim. Cars Land didn't just "save" DCA. It drove attendance so far over the top at DCA and DL that they had to redefine and reprice the annual pass menu to lock more people out. I think the similar redefining of annual passes at WDW is TDO trying to get out ahead of the same problem in advance of Avatar Land and the east coast Star Wars Land opening. FP+ was just a very expensive stop-gap measure. At some point, crowding will make a fifth gate inevitable. I don't think Disney is interested in recapturing the legacy feel of the parks, of course. But I don't think they want first-time visitors never to come back because of the crowds, either.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

The 5th gate thing will only happen really if the global economy continues to recover and people can continue to afford Disney. Not having another economic crash for another 20 years will be a big thing for Disney when it comes to increased crowd levels and need for more park space.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There will always be people with enough means to afford Disney. Look at current ticket and pass prices as compared to current crowding. They market is still bearing the cost of a visit. That's really never changed.

 

[Firebird060]

Ehh when economic crashes happen, parks attendance does not stop, but frequency of visit and the rise of attendance does slow. You get less of a steep incline and more of a steady rise. People will never stop going to Disney world, but growth greatly slows during economic down turns. Right now the market bears the cost because the economy is not all that bad. Yes the market is not pre 2008 or even mid to late 90s levels but it is still a rising market.

If the market, global and domestic, continues to stay positive then disney will have to build a fifth gate all that much sooner, than say if the economy collapsed and they had 3 years of stagnate attendance. If that were the case than their would be less of a need for fifth park as profits would not have continued to rise, and the parks at that time would show being able to bear the weight of guests.

The better the economy the more visitors continue to go to WDW and the increase in number of reasons to spend money on a new park to then attract more guests. A stable and growing economy would make a fifth gate happen quicker.

 

[DDLand]

I agree with everything you said DDLAND.

But in saying that you know we live in a I want it Now society and everyone hates waiting. I fully believe that Disney may announce a 5th gate within the next 10 years but people will be still be complaining about how long it takes. The best thing and worst thing for Disney was how fast that Universal has expanded and gotten construction done

It can be a bit frustrating waiting, and sometimes hard to see what's really going on. What I talked about above really only all starts to come together with hindsight. At the time of Tom Stagg's announcement that Avatar would launch with significant park upgrades I never got that it was every bit as big as DCA's transformation. Using the same strategy. It just seemed all too low key and with no specifics. Now it makes sense and I'm excited for it all to come together.

It'll all make sense in the future. Then we'll all look back at the times we used to complain and speculate about SWL on a message board, and laugh!

 

[sotoalf]

The complaints are laughable. Those of us who've been going to WDW since the seventies can remember a time when we stood in line at Space Mountain two hours or longer. We could visit the Magic Kingdom in August 1987 and only ride five attractions -- a time when only two theme parks and six resort hotels were open.

Now, I don't think magic bands have approved the experience so much unless you go during a moribund time of year: you'll still ride no problem three or four attractions, tops, and stand in line for the rest. But this info won't stop people from believing there was a magical time before or during the Eisner years when a Disney park experience wasn't hellish. I mean, let's face it -- the fast food offered is healthier than it was in 1994 or 1984. This is a fact yet people want to commemorate the horrible chicken wings that Tomorrowland Terrace served when the Eagles topped the charts.

That Disney has problems now, I don't deny. But lines and food aren't the problems.

 

[Josh Hendy]

walking around the parks is like walking through Times Square anymore. It is just packed everywhere all the time. I don't really know that there is anything that Disney can do about it either unless they start closing the gates and that isn't going to happen.

You hit a sore spot there. To me, Times Square is the epitome of a waste of time and a ridiculously lousy excuse for a tourist attraction.

I wonder ... are there bigger crowds walking around on the streets and pathways because there are fewer people riding on attractions? Relatively speaking.

On the one hand we have the super-headliner rides that everyone wants to ride on. But these rides are rationed now, with 80 percent of the seats allocated to FP+ holders, who generally get no more than 3 or 4 FP+ for their entire day. Those people spend little time in queues and visit few rides per day.

Then there are the super-snoozer rides, which because they're slow, old, out of date and out of fashion, nobody is spending much time in. You know which ones they are.

So people spend a little bit of time on the super-dooper rides, and not much time at all on the super-snoozers because, what the F, it's the energy adventure and I'd rather nap at the hotel than on that ride.

What else are they going to do except mill around on the sidewalks until their next FP+ or until the parade/fireworks? Hence the feeling of crowding. "Gee, this feels just like Times Square the way I have to keep stepping off the curb and shifting sideways all the time to get around the knots of people. And there is absolutely nothing to see here."

The solution is not just building a new super-headliner every 3 years. There must be at least a dozen attractions that should be giant crowd-eaters, but they're not because they haven't been significantly updated in decades. Literally. They're lame, irrelevant wastes of time. The 3D movies. The 2D movies in China, France and Canada. The slow rides that are supposed to be thought provoking, educational and relevant. Come on down, Energy Adventure, Imagination, Carousel of Progress, Living with the Land, Great Movie Ride. Even Spaceship Earth. How many times do you have to do that computerized lifestyle quiz before it gets old? Once. Maybe.

 

[mikedoyleblogger]

Yes, indeed, there are bigger crowds. In 1995, MK had 12.9 million visitors. Last year, MK had 19 million. Most likely due to new resorts coming on line. The problem is TDO overbuilt hotel capacity.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

This is so true. I've been visiting WDW since 1978. Back then, crowds were virtually non-existent except during the most peak times. Today, the "off season" crowds probably exceed the peak day crowds back then.

We were there last week, November 8-15. Not Jersey Week. Not a holiday. The crowds were nuts. Yes F&W was still going on but that's only in Epcot. All 4 parks were packed. I've never seen it that busy in November before, even during Jersey Week.

F and W's end explains a good bit of the problem.

But I swear the bigger issue is that there are very few "low crowd" times now. There is no time on the calendar when there is releif.

Redistribution has made it worse on many if not most days.

My example is that my last two summer crowds...and a spring break week... were way more bearable than my last trip in November and January.

That is the exact opposite of the first 35 years of the compound.

It makes everyone more tense...and it will be a real problem for the operation if they don't take it seriously.

You can't charge more for less comfort and get away with it forever.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Yes, indeed, there are bigger crowds. In 1995, MK had 12.9 million visitors. Last year, MK had 19 million. Most likely due to new resorts coming on line. The problem is TDO overbuilt hotel capacity.

I think they have failed to provide solid expansions necessary to meet the expanded hotel capacity.

They have taken "they'll just be happy if they're here" too literally already

 

[Planogirl]

I think that this is interesting. It's nice that they are finally building new attractions in DHS and AK but while that will give visitors more to do it will also likely draw even more people. Luckily (and I'm being sarcastic) there is Epcot to draw people away but the trouble is that that park has relatively little to do. It has a few decent rides and decent small pavilions in World Showcase. MK is already at a saturation point.

You would think that a fifth gate would be better. It would spread out the crowds more than a few lands in two parks but I can't see Disney being eager to spend the money required for such an expansion, at least not for a while.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney likely is unwilling to attempt the cost or infrastucture to build another gate/area.

But what's more important is that they can neither find the 5-10,000 extra employees needed nor want anything to with the costs associated.

The only way they get a fifth gate is if they outsource existing nametags.

The obvious answers there are to drop food operations completely or hotel operations. That would solve the problem.

Or we could all pay double every ten years and stay longer...

Wait a minute...

 

[disneysteve]

I wonder ... are there bigger crowds walking around on the streets and pathways because there are fewer people riding on attractions?

I don't think this is the case at all. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people at Disney World on any given day who are there for the first time, or first time in a long time. The things that you and I may be tired of are brand new to them. The week I was there, we also had friends who were there with their 3 children on their first family trip. The parents had each been to Disney but not since they were about 10 years old. They're now in their mid-30s. So pretty much everything was new and they sucked it up just like you and I did on our early trips.

I can also assure you that the "super snoozers" were not sitting vacant. You listed: China, France and Canada. Energy Adventure, Imagination, Carousel of Progress, Living with the Land, Great Movie Ride. Even Spaceship Earth. We did 7 of those 9 attractions last week (well 2 weeks ago now). All of them had respectable numbers of guests in line. Heck, we bypassed Spaceship Earth a couple of times because the line was so long. We finally caught it later in the week when the line was more reasonable.

The parks are simply more crowded and the attendance numbers confirm that, as mikedoyleblogger mentioned. Over the past 20 years, MK attendance has increased nearly 50%. Go farther back to the 70s when I started going and attendance has increased closer to 4-fold.

The complaints are laughable. Those of us who've been going to WDW since the seventies can remember a time when we stood in line at Space Mountain two hours or longer.

Now, I don't think magic bands have approved the experience so much unless you go during a moribund time of year: you'll still ride no problem three or four attractions, tops, and stand in line for the rest. But this info won't stop people from believing there was a magical time before or during the Eisner years when a Disney park experience wasn't hellish. I mean, let's face it -- the fast food offered is healthier than it was in 1994 or 1984. This is a fact yet people want to commemorate the horrible chicken wings that Tomorrowland Terrace served when the Eagles topped the charts.

This is true, but isn't really the point I'm focusing on. Sure, I remember going in the pre-FastPass days where if you wanted to ride something, you got in line and waited. My wife's first trip was with me in 1990. We didn't ride Jungle Cruise. Why? The line was too long and I wasn't going to wait an hour for it. On her 2nd trip, same story. Third trip, the same. Finally, on her 4th trip, we went during the then-off-season and she got to see Jungle Cruise. Today, if we really were dead set on riding it, we'd book a FP for it.

As for the food, I am 100% in agreement. The food at Disney is phenomenal. When we go to other amusement parks like Great Adventure or Hersheypark, we dread lunch time. The food is horribly overpriced and lousy. We look forward to eating at Disney parks where the food is very reasonably priced and excellent.

But back to my point - the crowds. Even though there might have been a 60 minute wait for the Jungle Cruise in 1990, the park itself wasn't that crowded. You could easily walk along the paths, stop and take pictures, admire the details, browse the shops. That isn't the case any more. Today, the parks are jam packed with people. More than once, I turned to my wife as we were trying to maneuver our way through and just told her where to meet me because even trying to stay together was a challenge. When we had lunch at Cosmic Ray's, we did 2 full laps around the restaurant looking for seats and never found any. We ended up eating standing up. We bypassed many PhotoPass photographs that we would have liked to have taken because of the length of the line of people waiting (this is partly a consequence of PP now being included with APs). Bottom line is that there are simply millions of more people visiting the parks each year and there isn't any more space for them to go. They're all converging on the same area as when there were millions fewer.