Fingerprint question

[Karbase8]

My son every trip had to give his fingerprint I did not know children didn't have to. He had to every trip.

 

[o0quirkygirl0o]

Who do I think they're "selling" it to? I wouldn't say selling it, but more like being told to give it to the government, and being told to say nothing about it (just like my day job). It's my opinion, of course. Feel free to call it a tinfoil hat opinion, but it would not be an odd request.

In Canada, the only time a Canadian will usually be fingerprinted (or at least the only time in my life, and I'm 35--and I've had several jobs + college + accounts with every single major bank here) is when you go to jail. Some children are also optionally fingerprinted by the police in case they are lost (I believe those programs are deader than a doornail here now, because I've not heard of a peep to suggest my 4 yo be fingerprinted for one, they're also optional and the child may refuse. Optional as in just don't get suckered into it at the mall). I have heard that jobs at particularly secure sites require fingerprints (Nuclear reactors / CSIS).

Is fingerprinting common in the US? In Canada the only time it is routinely used is for criminals (or people who are arrested and thus likely to become criminals). Thus to those of us from here, the first thing we think of is government/prison when asked about fingerprints.

Anyways, as for how would a hash of the fingerprint be useful for the government? Investigation -> Pull Fingerprint -> Run fingerprint through algorithm Disney uses to generate hash -> Narrow search to a few dozen people -> Hassle the 3 or 4 likely suspects until you find the right one. I'm not interested in that hassle, no thanks!

BTW, after pressuring the email rep, I managed to get a reply that stated affirmatively Photo ID is an acceptable alternative. So I booked my holiday! Yay! Maybe I should wear gloves while at Disney! Seriously, just joking!

Just read that and it sounds like I've been to jail! HA! Nothing of the sort, I assure you.

Just so you know, if you are from a foreign country and would like to get a Permanent Resident Card in Canada you must be fingerprinted.

Many, if not most, teachers are fingerprinted before being allowed to teach. I'm sure there are other times as well.

But, for the record, you don't have to be involved in ANYTHING shady or super high security to end up getting fingerprinted in Canada.

 

[DizBelle]

Who do I think they're "selling" it to? I wouldn't say selling it, but more like being told to give it to the government, and being told to say nothing about it (just like my day job). It's my opinion, of course. Feel free to call it a tinfoil hat opinion, but it would not be an odd request.

In Canada, the only time a Canadian will usually be fingerprinted (or at least the only time in my life, and I'm 35--and I've had several jobs + college + accounts with every single major bank here) is when you go to jail. Some children are also optionally fingerprinted by the police in case they are lost (I believe those programs are deader than a doornail here now, because I've not heard of a peep to suggest my 4 yo be fingerprinted for one, they're also optional and the child may refuse. Optional as in just don't get suckered into it at the mall). I have heard that jobs at particularly secure sites require fingerprints (Nuclear reactors / CSIS).

Is fingerprinting common in the US? In Canada the only time it is routinely used is for criminals (or people who are arrested and thus likely to become criminals). Thus to those of us from here, the first thing we think of is government/prison when asked about fingerprints.

Anyways, as for how would a hash of the fingerprint be useful for the government? Investigation -> Pull Fingerprint -> Run fingerprint through algorithm Disney uses to generate hash -> Narrow search to a few dozen people -> Hassle the 3 or 4 likely suspects until you find the right one. I'm not interested in that hassle, no thanks!

BTW, after pressuring the email rep, I managed to get a reply that stated affirmatively Photo ID is an acceptable alternative. So I booked my holiday! Yay! Maybe I should wear gloves while at Disney! Seriously, just joking!

Just read that and it sounds like I've been to jail! HA! Nothing of the sort, I assure you.

If the PP is correct, everyone's FP hash is between 000 and 999. Given the number of people that visit Disney parks every day, there will be FAR more than a few dozen people that have the same hash.

You're suggesting that an investigation would produce a retrieved fingerprint. "They" would take that fingerprint and produce the Disney hash for it (a number between 000 and 999) say, 445. Then they would gather everyone that produced a has of 445 for questioning.

Daily average attendance for all 4 WDW parks is about 120,000. So, 120,000 X 365 = 43,800,800 admittances to parks per year. Let's say that the average multi day ticket these people have is 5 days. So, 43,800,000/5 = 8,760,000 individuals going to Disney parks in a year. If the 1000 hashs are evenly distributed among thos 8,760,000 people, that means that 8,760 people will have the same hash.

I HIGHLY doubt they will round up nearly 9000 WDW visitors to interrogate them. And if it ever got out that WDW allowed their data to be used in this manner, business would go down the toilet. No more Disney.

FTR - I've been going to WDW yearly since 1995 and have given my finger scan whenever requested. I've never been interrogated for anything.

ETA - keep in mind that these figures are just for one year. If you have a completely different set of people visiting in another year - that's 17,520 people with the same hash. Add in another year thats 26,280 people with the same hash. And so on and so on.

 

[shepd]

Just so you know, if you are from a foreign country and would like to get a Permanent Resident Card in Canada you must be fingerprinted.

Many, if not most, teachers are fingerprinted before being allowed to teach. I'm sure there are other times as well.

But, for the record, you don't have to be involved in ANYTHING shady or super high security to end up getting fingerprinted in Canada.

I can't say anything about the teaching requirements because I don't teach. Might ask a teacher someday, though. Could certainly be the case.

As for the Permanent Resident Card, I'll ask someone tomorrow who I know got one a couple of years ago to see if that was the case.

I assume the police would be collecting prints for immigrants. As for the teacher thing, completely beats me. Might have to do with doing a police search to see if they have a criminal background--far too many teachers in Canada get busted a few years later for Pedo offences. Which still leads to the police.

The idea that you'd give your fingerprint to someone who isn't the police/government is still very weird to me--both of those cases are police/government related.

 

[chartle]

If the PP is correct, everyone's FP hash is between 000 and 999. Given the number of people that visit Disney parks every day, there will be FAR more than a few dozen people that have the same hash.

You're suggesting that an investigation would produce a retrieved fingerprint. "They" would take that fingerprint and produce the Disney hash for it (a number between 000 and 999) say, 445. Then they would gather everyone that produced a has of 445 for questioning.

Daily average attendance for all 4 WDW parks is about 120,000. So, 120,000 X 365 = 43,800,800 admittances to parks per year. Let's say that the average multi day ticket these people have is 5 days. So, 43,800,000/5 = 8,760,000 individuals going to Disney parks in a year. If the 1000 hashs are evenly distributed among thos 8,760,000 people, that means that 8,760 people will have the same hash.

I HIGHLY doubt they will round up nearly 9000 WDW visitors to interrogate them. And if it ever got out that WDW allowed their data to be used in this manner, business would go down the toilet. No more Disney.

FTR - I've been going to WDW yearly since 1995 and have given my finger scan whenever requested. I've never been interrogated for anything.

ETA - keep in mind that these figures are just for one year. If you have a completely different set of people visiting in another year - that's 17,520 people with the same hash. Add in another year thats 26,280 people with the same hash. And so on and so on.

It may be way more people. On the second read it may OK a number that is within a range say plus or minus 5. So you would have to multiply those numbers by 10. You also have to factor in that most people have 10 fingers. At a crime scene they don't always get a full set of prints.

Also I can't off the top of my head think how this would help an investigation. Are they going to start to match fingerprint readings at WDW with unsolved crimes across the country where they have unknown prints? This isn't Criminal Minds where Penelope has instant access to every database in the country at her fingertips.

 

[hsmamato2]

this thread has become very difficult to understand... ..... we can all assure ourselves whatever it we want,to make ourselves feel ok with all of this...but the simple fact remains beyond all this 'explanation'...... Many of us have first hand experience,over numerous years,numerous trips,and with varied people in our parties.... the fingerprints are remembered,and noted. If the 'wrong' person tries to use the ticket,it is noted,and 'fixed'. We were NOT allowed to enter the parks on more than one occasion until the fingerprint scan from previous years matched the person currently using the ticket. ( FWIW, I did a 'test' on a subsequent day, just to see if I was imagining all this,I wasn't) So now ,one DS has a ticket that only HE can use,and HIS fingerprint will allow ONLY him into the park. I don't know about 'hashing',selling,govt. usage of info.,or anything else.
I don't care about the ticket use, but let me assure you,he was a small,skinny kid when we purchased it,and he is not anymore. It is very accurate,and it is not based on width of finger,or any such thing.

 

[doxnal]

It's amusing that some people think there's even a necessity to request this information from WDW. The government is surely taking it, with or without Disney's cooperation. It's a very useful tracking mechanism, as it's difficult to deny that someone was there if their biometric data is on file.

The point about it not being an actual fingerprint but an identifier derived from fingerprint is irrelevant semantics. The point is, your unchangeable biological identity is encoded in their system in a way that makes it recognizable, and that could be derived by anyone else with the same biological data. Biological identifiers are scary because they are *absolutely permanent and universal*, and if I ever want to conceal my Disney World attendance, it would never, ever be possible if someone had an image of my finger and a copy of Disney's database. If I become a fugitive, I can change my name, disguise myself, etc., but there's nothing I can do about this type of biometric measurement.

This would only not be a problem if the data was discarded and the identifier very non-specific, which as I understand it, is not what occurs, and we couldn't trust the disposal of the data even if that was how it worked. It is apparently said that this system does not generate a unique identifier, just an almost unique identifier, which isn't really better. It would be possible to implement this in a non-threatening way, but it's very unlikely that that's occurring.

Anyway, last trip I decided it didn't matter because I bought tickets from a third-party broker and stayed off-site, so the biometric data would be unattached to any usable information (until correlation with other biometric databases, which I'm sure occurred). But I bought plane tickets anyway, so it's not like they didn't know where I was going.

I've since purchased an Annual Pass and will probably have to be consigned to the bleak reality imposed by biometric entrace scans for the time being. I really wish people would use a different system.

 

[chartle]

It's amusing that some people think there's even a necessity to request this information from WDW. The government is surely taking it, with or without Disney's cooperation. It's a very useful tracking mechanism, as it's difficult to deny that someone was there if their biometric data is on file.

The point about it not being an actual fingerprint but an identifier derived from fingerprint is irrelevant semantics. The point is, your unchangeable biological identity is encoded in their system in a way that makes it recognizable, and that could be derived by anyone else with the same biological data. Biological identifiers are scary because they are *absolutely permanent and universal*, and if I ever want to conceal my Disney World attendance, it would never, ever be possible if someone had an image of my finger and a copy of Disney's database. If I become a fugitive, I can change my name, disguise myself, etc., but there's nothing I can do about this type of biometric measurement.

This would only not be a problem if the data was discarded and the identifier very non-specific, which as I understand it, is not what occurs, and we couldn't trust the disposal of the data even if that was how it worked. It is apparently said that this system does not generate a unique identifier, just an almost unique identifier, which isn't really better. It would be possible to implement this in a non-threatening way, but it's very unlikely that that's occurring.

Anyway, last trip I decided it didn't matter because I bought tickets from a third-party broker and stayed off-site, so the biometric data would be unattached to any usable information (until correlation with other biometric databases, which I'm sure occurred). But I bought plane tickets anyway, so it's not like they didn't know where I was going.

I've since purchased an Annual Pass and will probably have to be consigned to the bleak reality imposed by biometric entrace scans for the time being. I really wish people would use a different system.

But it is very non specific. A number from 000 to 999 that, if I got my math right and including every one in the world, 7.1 million people share with you. I think thats more than reasonable doubt. Also your face is on 100's of video screens all throughout the park.

As for the AP, the finger scan is't needed to identify you unless you use a fake drivers license or other fake government ID.

 

[sethschroeder]

If the government really wants your finger print data they don't need WDW to get it. Either crack into the your file that you already have in Canada or send someone to retrieve it personally without you knowing... /story

 

[doxnal]

The issue is not that the government obtains biometric data from Disney World. The issue is that biometric data is permanently stored on Disney's systems, the government takes a copy of this, and biometric data is inalienable. There will always be a permanent, undeniable record of your presence there on those days. Surveillance -- you can change your facial appearance with hair modifications, glasses, etc., you can say it was a doppelganger, etc. etc.

Truly less worrisome if it's true that they encode each image down to a three-digit number and the ID is shared with thousands of others, but I'm skeptical that it actually happens that way. Very worrisome if the data is encoded to a reasonably unique identifier, even if it's theoretically possible to share with a few other park guests. The biggest problem is that there is no way to independently verify that they're using a specific coding method.

 

[AmyB2006]

. There will always be a permanent, undeniable record of your presence there on those days.

And that's bad...

 

[KaLyn]

Just so you know, if you are from a foreign country and would like to get a Permanent Resident Card in Canada you must be fingerprinted. Many, if not most, teachers are fingerprinted before being allowed to teach. I'm sure there are other times as well. But, for the record, you don't have to be involved in ANYTHING shady or super high security to end up getting fingerprinted in Canada.

I know for a fact that teachers and child care workers in PA are fingerprinted before hire.

 

[sethschroeder]

What about the 10,000 cameras? Credit card trail? Cell phone gps tracking? Park staff observations / memories? Possible magic band tracking if you take part? Google databases based of you let searches, ect around disney? In the end if someone wants this data they can get it through multiple other resources..... Unless you unplug completely don't talk about not being tracked 100% of the time.

 

[Denise W]

My daughter is a teacher in New York and had to submit fingerprints before starting her job. I was a Claims Adjuster and had to submit fingerprints in several of the states i applied to for adjusting licenses.

Denise

 

[Brian Noble]

The issue is that biometric data is permanently stored on Disney's systems, the government takes a copy of this, and biometric data is inalienable.

But Disney's system is a probabilistic verification scheme, not an identification scheme. The two are very very different. Disney's specific system chooses a few points on a fingerprint, computes a function over those points modulo some number, and stores the result. I'm not sure if that modulus is 1,000 (as a prior poster suggested) or 10,000 (as I seem to recall), but it's not sufficient to uniquely identify anyone in the park even on a given day, let alone "anyone". The original fingerprint is not stored, only the result of this computation.

The chances that two random people get the same result of this computation are low (1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10,000, depending) so it is unlikely that one person can sell another a partially-used ticket and have it work. That's sufficient for Disney's purposes of preventing ticket "sharing". But, the system cannot be used to identify anyone in particular.

I vaguely recall that Disney is willing to use photo ID instead of the biometrics if someone is physically incapable of using the scanners, and perhaps they would do so as well for someone who conscientiously objects. But, given Disney's fanatical devotion to measuring and monitoring how its guests behave, anyone this worried about privacy should probably rethink WDW as a vacation destination.

 

[ses1230]

Is fingerprinting common in the US? In Canada the only time it is routinely used is for criminals (or people who are arrested and thus likely to become criminals). Thus to those of us from here, the first thing we think of is government/prison when asked about fingerprints.

I know for a fact that teachers and child care workers in PA are fingerprinted before hire.

In addition to what KaLyn stated, health care workers caring for children are fingerprinted (at least in PA).

Also, we had to be fingerprinted be approved to adopt our children.

 

[KrazeeK120]

In addition to what KaLyn stated, health care workers caring for children are fingerprinted (at least in PA).

Also, we had to be fingerprinted be approved to adopt our children.

I had to be fingerprinted to work at a facility that housed orphans as well as has a residential treatment center for kids with psychological/behavioral problems. I was in human resources and had no contact with the kids, but was subject to a full background check (and fingerprinting) in order to work there.

I would say that jobs that involve interaction with children commonly involve fingerprinting.

I worry more about my credit card # getting stolen than my fingerprints.

 

[POB14]

I think it's hilarious that people worry about a biometric scan, and then hand their credit card over to a person they don't know at a restaurant inside.

 

[Jestocost]

I find it hard to believe that Disney has this miraculous fingerprint ID technology through which they can ID you conclusively until the day you die, when the company can't get it's own Web site to work reliably for booking reservations.

 

[tarak]

In addition to what KaLyn stated, health care workers caring for children are fingerprinted (at least in PA). Also, we had to be fingerprinted be approved to adopt our children.

You also have to be fingerprinted before taking the state bar exam so a criminal background check can be performed by the state police. So lawyers get fingerprinted, too.

Actually, now that I think about it, you don't need the fingerprints to have the check run because the Girl Scouts do it every year so I can volunteer. I think the school does it, too. But I know I had to go to the state police barracks and get fingerprinted as part of the application to take the bar exam.