Fingerprint question

[shepd]

Hi! I was wondering if I could get a firm answer on Disney's current (and likely future practice for 2014) rules on fingerprint biometrics?

I called up DisneyWorld today and was told that it is not possible to enter the park without giving Disney my fingerprint. Both my wife and myself have decided we are not interested in giving a US company this information due to the current political climate. I'd still like to visit (I'll also be bringing a 4 year old), and I don't mind being inconvenienced to make it work.

I've read in the "Everything about WDW tickets" and on the official website the fingerprint is only needed for Ticket Tag and that I can choose to use Photo ID if I prefer so long as I refuse to provide a fingerprint from the start. That would work fine, however, my 4 year old has no Photo ID (The border allows children this young to enter with a Birth Certificate, no passport required).

I'm not interested in a discussion about what is really done with the information, nor how little biometrics are stored--my opinion is firm that even the length of my finger is too much data to give (I understand that 5 points of your fingerprint are stored, which is industry standard). That they're only stored for 30 days isn't of interest either. I also don't need a discussion as to agreement/disagreement with whether I'm right about the political climate. Just an honest yes/no would do the job, and if I can visit without a fingerprint, what do I need to do to make that happen?

I'd really like to visit, but this is a deal breaker if, in fact, there's no way to avoid giving a fingerprint to Disney other than not visiting at all. I'd like to get a 5-day pass, so I suppose if I can only refuse with a 1-day pass, I'd want to know that so I can shorten my stay.

 

[lovetoscrap]

Moving to the Theme Parks Board

 

[larryz]

They don't store your fingerprint. They calculate a value based on points read from your fingerprint and associate that value with your admission media. And you can bet they don't share that with any competitors.

 

[Laketravis]

Hi! I was wondering if I could get a firm answer on Disney's current (and likely future practice for 2014) rules on fingerprint biometrics?

I called up DisneyWorld today and was told that it is not possible to enter the park without giving Disney my fingerprint. Both my wife and myself have decided we are not interested in giving a US company this information due to the current political climate. I'd still like to visit (I'll also be bringing a 4 year old), and I don't mind being inconvenienced to make it work.

I've read in the "Everything about WDW tickets" and on the official website the fingerprint is only needed for Ticket Tag and that I can choose to use Photo ID if I prefer so long as I refuse to provide a fingerprint from the start. That would work fine, however, my 4 year old has no Photo ID (The border allows children this young to enter with a Birth Certificate, no passport required).

I'm not interested in a discussion about what is really done with the information, nor how little biometrics are stored--my opinion is firm that even the length of my finger is too much data to give (I understand that 5 points of your fingerprint are stored, which is industry standard). That they're only stored for 30 days isn't of interest either. I also don't need a discussion as to agreement/disagreement with whether I'm right about the political climate. Just an honest yes/no would do the job, and if I can visit without a fingerprint, what do I need to do to make that happen?

I'd really like to visit, but this is a deal breaker if, in fact, there's no way to avoid giving a fingerprint to Disney other than not visiting at all. I'd like to get a 5-day pass, so I suppose if I can only refuse with a 1-day pass, I'd want to know that so I can shorten my stay.

If you can opt out of the fingerprint requirement, no need to worry about your 4 year old. They don't require children to supply a fingerprint, just the MB read.

 

[Robo]

That they're only stored for 30 days isn't of interest either.

They don't store it for 30 days, they store it for as long as the ticket for which it is associated is still valid, which for AP's is a full year, and for some non-expiring tickets, it could be many years.

 

[Robo]

I called up DisneyWorld today and was told that it is not possible to enter the park without giving Disney my fingerprint.

Whomever you called did not know what they were talking about.

(Which, sadly, is not such a rare occurrence.)

 

[BridgetR3]

As a previous poster said, children are not required to give a finger print.

I would think that there has to be an option for those who refuse finger prints. I hope you find an answer.

 

[Robo]

You know, if you paid cash for the tickets, they wouldn't have the slightest idea who you were, anyway.

 

[Robo]

On further reflection, it occurs to me that I've been "had."

 

[livndisney]

Whomever you called did not know what they were talking about.

(Which, sadly, is not such a rare occurrence.)

We have been told twice in the last week ( two different parks) that to enter the park you need to do the biometric. One from a "plaid" who said she would make an "exception" this time. She pointed out the ticket says "Biometric required for entry".

 

[Silock]

Unless the policy has changed in the last year, you don't need to supply a fingerprint to get in. My brother-in-law refused and they let him in with his driver's license.

 

[disnut8]

Hi! I was wondering if I could get a firm answer on Disney's current (and likely future practice for 2014) rules on fingerprint biometrics?

I called up DisneyWorld today and was told that it is not possible to enter the park without giving Disney my fingerprint. .......I'd still like to visit (I'll also be bringing a 4 year old), and I don't mind being inconvenienced to make it work.

I've read in the "Everything about WDW tickets" and on the official website the fingerprint is only needed for Ticket Tag and that I can choose to use Photo ID if I prefer so long as I refuse to provide a fingerprint from the start. That would work fine, however, my 4 year old has no Photo ID (The border allows children this young to enter with a Birth Certificate, no passport required).

I'm not interested in a discussion about what is really done with the information, nor how little biometrics are stored--my opinion is firm that even the length of my finger is too much data to give (I understand that 5 points of your fingerprint are stored, which is industry standard). That they're only stored for 30 days isn't of interest either. .....

I'd really like to visit, but this is a deal breaker if, in fact, there's no way to avoid giving a fingerprint to Disney other than not visiting at all. I'd like to get a 5-day pass, so I suppose if I can only refuse with a 1-day pass, I'd want to know that so I can shorten my stay.

I shortened the original post to only contain information and not personal opinion so other issue are not brought up.

No one enters Disney World with a fingerprint.

Your four year old would not be required to give a finger scan so no need for ID for that guest.

I'd be interested in seeing what you read that said five points of fingerprints are stored and stored for up to 30 days. As I stated, fingerprints are not used for entrance to Disney World. Also, I have an annual pass so my finger scan should be in the system for a year since it's often more than 30 days in between my visits and my pass has always worked just fine without being reset each trip.

My advice to you is to go to the Guest Relations located outside of each park and at Downtown Disney and speak to a representative there about using a photo ID instead of a finger scan to enter the parks. If you are going on what someone explained to you over the phone, that person is just a call center representative and it's possibly they've never even set foot in a Disney park or they might not even live in the state of Florida. A Guest Relations person right at the park would have better answers and can get in touch physically with managers.

 

[MinnieGirl33]

The whole point of the biometrics to prevent people from transferring and/or sharing partially used tickets and AP's. Like Robo said, if you pay cash for the tickets AND you don't link them to a resort reservation then they will have no idea who the scan/print belongs to just that it matches the ticket.

 

[AmyB2006]

If you can opt out of the fingerprint requirement, no need to worry about your 4 year old. They don't require children to supply a fingerprint, just the MB read.

This. Your 4 year old won't need to give a fingerprint. My kids are 7 and 4 and they've never required a fingerprint to enter.

If you can opt out, then it sounds like your problem is solved.

 

[JudithM]

Unless the policy has changed in the last year, you don't need to supply a fingerprint to get in. My brother-in-law refused and they let him in with his driver's license.

This is what we have always done and did it as recently as last week. We just have our driver's license ready along with our annual pass. With the new entrances (not turnstiles), we now had to talk directly to a Guest Relations CM nearby the entrance.

 

[shepd]

Thanks for all the responses, especially the last one that confirms it should not be a problem. And thanks to the mod, I just want to enjoy Disney and not provide a fingerprint, that's all--the politics don't matter. I actually don't care if Disney knows who I am or where I live. Heck, chances are you'd be able to figure that out if you wanted to.

I'm interested in that cash option. If I were to pay cash, there's really no need to ever give a name, I'd just fingerprint and be in? I'm surprised at that, but that works fine for me since it doesn't tie me to the information, I'd be quite happy about that. Although, unfortunately, I'd then have no opportunity to get discount tickets from a travel agent or at the hotel--I assume I'd need to buy them at the gate.

As for where I read about how the data is stored, I'll see if I can find that. I only mention it because I know it's not a full scan, it just does what pretty much every single other fingerprint scanner out there does--snapshots a few specific points of interest and calculates a value based on those (the number of points of interest increases the accuracy, I assume Disney only wants just enough accuracy to ensure nobody resells passes).

The problem with going to the park to ask questions is I'm in Canada! And this holiday my plan is to go to Orlando and basically spend the entire time going to Disney, nothing else. So it would be quite the bust to go there and find out I can't do what I came there for!

Thanks everyone! I hope I don't come off as too crazy here, it's just something I'm not willing to do--just a personal hangup, I guess (shared by the wife, though!). I emailed Disney to find out, perhaps that will get me a solid answer. The website has this to say, so I'm imagining that they are the right authority for the answer:

/faq/my-disney-experience/privacy-policy/

What is the Ticket Tag service and what information is collected through it?

We offer the convenience of Ticket Tag at the entrance of many of our theme parks and water parks. Ticket Tag helps to facilitate ease of re-entry into our parks and helps prevent fraud.

In order to use Ticket Tag, you simply place your finger on a reader. The system, which utilizes the technology of biometrics, takes an image of your finger, converts the image into a unique numerical value and immediately discards the image. The numerical value is recalled when you use Ticket Tag with the same ticket to re-enter or visit another Park. Ticket Tag does not store fingerprints.

Are all guests required to use Ticket Tag?

If you don't want to use Ticket Tag, you can simply carry and show a photo ID that matches the name identified with your ticket.

EDIT: I can't find any articles with the specific numbers of points scanned, just that it's 3 or more. I am not certain where I got the number 5 from. Sorry.

LOL, one more edit, just because I figure someone might mention it. I already know the wristbands use long range RFID (and that if you want you can ask for a short range badge instead). I have no problem with that, in fact, it seems like a very interesting idea!

 

[Robo]

I'm interested in that cash option.

1- If I were to pay cash, there's really no need to ever give a name, I'd just fingerprint and be in?

2- I'm surprised at that, but that works fine for me since it doesn't tie me to the information, I'd be quite happy about that.

3- Although, unfortunately, I'd then have no opportunity to get discount tickets from a travel agent or at the hotel--I assume I'd need to buy them at the gate.

1- Yes.

2- Surprised that you can buy a ticket to a theme park for cash, and go in?

3- There aren't any discount tickets at the hotel.
I read your first post and you didn't ask about discounts, you were
only lamenting the impossibility of buying multi-day tickets.

I'd like to get a 5-day pass, so I suppose if I can only refuse with a 1-day pass, I'd want to know that so I can shorten my stay.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

The finger scan only picks up an area about ½ inch by ¼ inch. It then applies an algorithm which converts that scan to a three-digit number from 000 to 999 and stores that resultant. On subsequent entries the computer looks to match the resultant number.

It is not possible to reverse-engineer from the resultant to the actual scan. This really is not a very sophisticated process, as there is a 1 in 1,000 probability of duplication, which means that normally at least 20 to 50 people will have the same resultant in one park on any day.

If you are staying on property and using a Magic Band you have no option other than using the finger scan as there is nothing on the band to use for comparison.

Also, if using the Magic Band there is no way short of disassembling the band to disable the active RFID chip inside as it is in a sealed unit.

BTW, if you purchase tickets from an offsite location there is no way that a ticket can be traced to you. I have seen, in the ticketing computer, that when the tickets are wholesaled out they are sold at more than a thousand tickets at a time, so the reseller keeps track of to whom they have sold the tickets (in case lost in the mail) but all Disney knows is the ticket was sold in bulk to "X" reseller.

Also, if the ticket is for a person ages 3 - 9 (including APs) the system does not ask for a finger scan at the time of use.

 

[shepd]

1- Yes.

2- Surprised that you can buy a ticket to a theme park for cash, and go in?

3- There aren't any discount tickets at the hotel.
I read your first post and you didn't ask about discounts, you were
only lamenting the impossibility of buying multi-day tickets.

I'm as cheap as the next guy, discounts are always good. The discounts only look to be about 10% so it doesn't really matter in the long run. $100 is still a good meal out, though.

I'm more surprised that since Disney is very serious about their tickets, they'd sell one cash without requesting I sign the ticket or provide some personal details. Normally I wouldn't expect this for a cash purchase, but this is different.

It is not possible to reverse-engineer from the resultant to the actual scan.

Oh, I'm certain of that. Storing the entire thing would be a waste of space and would actually take longer to match. However, the information can be used to identify a fingerprint taken to Disney (if Disney were to comply, of course). The high false-positive rate is actually worse for people if you're worried about governments accessing the data. But now I'm getting political and I said I didn't want to do that!

I intend to stay outside of Disney at a non-Disney hotel, but close enough I can almost walk there. Almost. I'll be parking there because I'm lazy.

BTW, if you purchase tickets from an offsite location there is no way that a ticket can be traced to you.

I'm not worried at all about Disney knowing who I am. I just cannot trust that the fingerprint biometrics are actually stored only at Disney and erased when my ticket is used up. Nothing from Disney or their employees is going to change that apart from the impossibility of them letting me audit their systems (which is also necessary to prove exactly how detailed the scan is).

Part of what makes me skeptic is that there is no reason at all to store the information centrally--it can be added straight into the ticket itself. If signed, it cannot be faked, even if it were a 2D barcode on the ticket. The only excuse I can see for not doing this is that families get stupid and don't bother figuring out whose pass is whose--but, to me, that is a poor excuse to open such a gaping security hole. You can probably guess what my day job is now.

 

[Robo]

Part of what makes me skeptic is that there is no reason at all to store the information centrally--it can be added straight into the ticket itself. If signed, it cannot be faked, even if it were a 2D barcode on the ticket. The only excuse I can see for not doing this is that families get stupid and don't bother figuring out whose pass is whose--but, to me, that is a poor excuse to open such a gaping security hole. You can probably guess what my day job is now.

Tickets get lost and damaged.
With all info in the central file, the physical ticket can be replaced in seconds… and off you go.

I've had my AP replaced several times.
No trip delay as the new ticket comes from the booth and I'm back in the park with little difficulty.

All I can see is that you're tilting at windmills, DQ.
But, tilt away.
There's ways you can do what you want without too much difficulty.