Fellow New Yorkers, question about new NYS free college tuition program.....

[MamaBelle4]

Yeah we paid $8000 in school taxes this year on a middle class home and our test scores are worse now than ever. Most of the money goes to union teachers' pensions and benefits not to the students' education. Throwing money at a problem never solves it, and getting the government involved is always a bureaucratic nightmare. This is a pure and simple political move to garner votes by offering something else free.
What about giving free houses too? Poor children would benefit and you could get a small house for the price of a college education. For only $10 or $20 per taxpayer society would benefit so why stop there? And come on a new car would only cost $5 a taxpayer and would help the poor get to their jobs.

Sigh. This attitude is one I just don't understand. Life isn't a pie. Just because someone else gets a piece, it doesn't mean there is less for you. You only quoted a very small portion of my post, choosing to ignore where I mention it is all about prioritizing.

I prioritize compassion and helping humanity above all else. You don't. We aren't going to agree on anything with such different core beliefs.

 

[Gracie09]

I assume it means if in this case young people are educated, society benefits/QUOTE]

Depends what their major is. I know A LOT of college grads living in poverty so there are no guarantees. But I WILL guarantee any government program that says it will only cost the taxpayers only $10 a year will cost hundreds of times that. When has a government promise ever came in on budget? Guess everyone forgot Obamacare already.



then they should take into account what the job market is for their major. My school has employers lining up for accountants and finance majors. We can't send them enough. And for good salaries. But an art history major, not so much. Some of the responsibility has to be on the student and the family

 

[Dakota731]

And so if you make over $125000 you don't qualify so then you pay for your children and everyone else's. It's another wealth distribution scheme.

EXCUSE ME??? We give 15 % of our income to charity so don't tell me I'm not compassionate, but I want to choose where my money goes. I don't want the government doing it for me. You are free to pay any kids' college tuition you want. Who's stopping you? You just want to use other people's money for your "charity".

 

[wilkeliza]

I assume it means if in this case young people are educated, society benefits/QUOTE]

Depends what their major is. I know A LOT of college grads living in poverty so there are no guarantees. But I WILL guarantee any government program that says it will only cost the taxpayers only $10 a year will cost hundreds of times that. When has a government promise ever came in on budget? Guess everyone forgot Obamacare already.




then they should take into account what the job market is for their major. My school has employers lining up for accountants and finance majors. We can't send them enough. And for good salaries. But an art history major, not so much. Some of the responsibility has to be on the student and the family

Don't know the art history majors too much haha. It is also about what a student is willing to do beyond their major. I will admit I have a theater arts degree in production design. I had some employment opportunities in my field outside of college and most of the people I went to school with are working and making a living. I took a different path and am fine with it. I actually work in the billing department of an IT company. So having a fluffy degree doesn't automatically equal no job prospects. It really depends on what you are willing to do while in school as well as any minors you might have.

 

[MamaBelle4]

And so if you make over $125000 you don't qualify so then you pay for your children and everyone else's. It's another wealth distribution scheme.

EXCUSE ME??? We give 15 % of our income to charity so don't tell me I'm not compassionate, but I want to choose where my money goes. I don't want the government doing it for me. You are free to pay any kids' college tuition you want. Who's stopping you? You just want to use other people's money for your "charity".

Sure.

 

[Dakota731]

[Life isn't a pie. Just because someone else gets a piece, it doesn't mean there is less for you. /QUOTE]

Too bad we don't have unlimited "pie" but in the real world we have something called BUDGETS where money must be allocated. So to balance this budget (which NY never comes close) some programs must be cut to offer free stuff for others. And someone (usually the middle class) has to pay their share plus many other people's shares.

 

[MamaBelle4]

This is the last time I will reply to you because I tire of repeating myself.

It is about prioritizing. Some people think we need to spend billions MORE on defense or provide huge tax breaks to corporations.

Some people (myself included) would rather that money be prioritized into investing in the homefront. Raising our seniors ss to living wages, providing better mental and health care and benefits to our veterans, fixing our crumbling infrastructure AND investing in the lower and low middle class to raise our children out of poverty.

I will not continue this reply because I am dancing on the edge of politics as it is. You will note, however, earlier I did not call you discompassionate. I simply said it isn't your top priority based on your posts. This is in reference to how our TAX dollars are spent. Not personal income. See the difference?

 

[Dakota731]

Yes because I put my money where my mouth is and give to several charities which I know spend the money wisely and spend little in overhead and bureaucratic bloat, and believe me that is not the government. Why should someone who works hard and makes $126000 a year have to pay their own kids college plus pitch in to pay everyone else's, yet his neighbor who makes $124000 gets his kids tuition paid for? It's redistribution of wealth pure and simple.
No one is stopping anyone from being charitable but when it's forced upon a heavy-laden middle class again, then I don't call that charity, I call that socialism. Of course if you have college aged kids then this "freebie" sounds great to you.

 

[MamaBelle4]

Yes because I put my money where my mouth is and give to several charities which I know spend the money wisely and spend little in overhead and bureaucratic bloat, and believe me that is not the government. Why should someone who works hard and makes $126000 a year have to pay their own kids college plus pitch in to pay everyone else's, yet his neighbor who makes $124000 gets his kids tuition paid for? It's redistribution of wealth pure and simple.
No one is stopping anyone from being charitable but when it's forced upon a heavy-laden middle class again, then I don't call that charity, I call that socialism. Of course if you have college aged kids then this "freebie" sounds great to you.

Actually, I don't. Nor do I live in NY.

My eldest is 8 and we live in PA. As I said earlier, I hope the program will eventually be expanded to include much more middle class families. I also believe in today''s society and professional world, a K-12 education is no longer enough.

There was a time public school did not exist and only the rich had their children educated, which kept the lower classes "in their place", so to speak. That is where we are headed with 4 year degrees. They are no longer affordable to the average family and it is keeping middle and lower class families in "their place". I believe it is time that public schooling be extended to a 4 year degree.

You disagree. That's fine. I don't know why you keep taking offense with my beliefs.

 

[brockash]

the whole remain in NY is kinda of a weird stipulation. I mean, that limits you to not a big list of jobs to apply for... :\

It's only for as many years as you took the assistance. There are other places that give you educational assistance with the agreement that you work in a certain area for a certain amount of time etc.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I really don't understand. You seem to be arguing it both ways. You think that offering free tuition is wrong headed, but at the same time you are also arguing that aid should be greater because it doesn't cover room and board.

In my view, NY state is basically providing families with a discount, but not a free ride. You don't get to go to college completely free because you still have to cover room and board. There is an element of personal and/or family responsibility built into this plan and I think that is actually important. The free tuition will be helpful to many students it will significantly reduce overall costs. But students will still be accountable for partial expenses as well as having to work in the state for 2-4 years after graduation. A completely free ride would negate that personal responsibility. Even students that go to college on full scholarships have gotten there through lots of hard work (academic, athletic, arts, etc.) and must maintain a minimum level of performance to continue to receive such aid. Even with greater state aid, there must still be an appropriate level of accountability and I think that is what NY is attempting to do. Only time will tell how well that works.

Not really. I agree with you on not giving people a free ride, just because--everyone needs to have some skin in the game. What I'm saying is, this plan is not nearly as attractive when you look at the details. A poor student would likely do better living at home and going to community college, or whatever college is close enough to attend, in order to save money, versus taking this scholarship. As I mentioned before, loans would still be required, and Pell grants, etc. are taken off the top--so, if you qualified for a Pell grant, it really would be going straight to the state.

but it is likely they would have to take out loans anyway. And no everyone can't be an RA but those were just two examples off the top of my head. There is no absolute requirement to stay in the state. If you leave early, you get an interest free loan from the state. Not too bad a deal. But again, there is no requirement for people take advantage of the program. You don't like the terms don't take the scholarship.

I thought I read that the interest rate is 12%--not a good deal at all!

I don't have a dog in this fight--I no longer live in NY. We have other choices for our children's college education. It just breaks my heart to see how shabbily the state treats the upstate region. Plans like this aren't going to stop people from fleeing the state. Here's an article I read, just this morning:

http://nypost.com/2017/04/23/why-new-yorks-economic-outlook-stinks/

 

[Gracie09]

Yes because I put my money where my mouth is and give to several charities which I know spend the money wisely and spend little in overhead and bureaucratic bloat, and believe me that is not the government. Why should someone who works hard and makes $126000 a year have to pay their own kids college plus pitch in to pay everyone else's, yet his neighbor who makes $124000 gets his kids tuition paid for? It's redistribution of wealth pure and simple.
No one is stopping anyone from being charitable but when it's forced upon a heavy-laden middle class again, then I don't call that charity, I call that socialism. Of course if you have college aged kids then this "freebie" sounds great to you.

Why should someone making $31,000 qualify for SNAP benefits while someone making $32,000 not qualify? Why should someone making $184,000 qualify for a Roth IRA but someone making 185,000 start being phased out and someone making $194,000 be completely phased out? Why should my child care tax credit max out at well below my income, but someone else's not. In fact why should there even be a child care tax credit? Why should someone making $80,000 deduct student loan interest, but someone making $81,000 not?

I can go on all day like this. Whenever there is an income limit, there will be people on either side of the line.

 

[Gracie09]

Not really. I agree with you on not giving people a free ride, just because--everyone needs to have some skin in the game. What I'm saying is, this plan is not nearly as attractive when you look at the details. A poor student would likely do better living at home and going to community college, or whatever college is close enough to attend, in order to save money, versus taking this scholarship. As I mentioned before, loans would still be required, and Pell grants, etc. are taken off the top--so, if you qualified for a Pell grant, it really would be going straight to the state.



I thought I read that the interest rate is 12%--not a good deal at all!

I don't have a dog in this fight--I no longer live in NY. We have other choices for our children's college education. It just breaks my heart to see how shabbily the state treats the upstate region. Plans like this aren't going to stop people from fleeing the state. Here's an article I read, just this morning:

http://nypost.com/2017/04/23/why-new-yorks-economic-outlook-stinks/

The head of NYS education was on NPR Friday speaking of the program. He said it converts to an interest free loan. Upstate NY has been in economic distress for at least 25 years. This is not going to make anything worse. If anything it will make things better for people who now will not have to pay for the tuition part of the cost of college. Downstate (Rockland and below) has paid 7.9 billion in taxes in 2010, and received 4.6 billion back in services. There is almost twice as many people downstate as upstate. And the unemployment rate is about equal.

http://alloveralbany.com/archive/2014/05/08/what-if-upstate-new-york-and-downstate-new-york-we


http://www.politifact.com/new-york/...spends-more-western-new-york-it-receives-tax/

 

[rigs32]

It's really a taxpayer gift to the NY colleges, since they now no longer need to offer any free money to in-state NY students under a certain salary nor do they need to worry about those students' ability to pay the full bill...those state colleges are who will benefit the most under the plan. And they'll be able to raise base tuition at will to get themselves more and more benefit...without worrying about reducing their student numbers (since they can't price out people not actually paying the tuition).

1) SUNY and CUNY schools don't offer need based aid the way private schools do. It's all based on your qualifications for federal grants/loans.

2) SUNY can't raise tuition without the approval of the state legislature.

I truly don't understand people who are up in arms about this program yet have no issues with local school taxes. A college degree in today's economy is what a high school degree used to be. I don't agree that it's necessary for many jobs, but employers sure think so. Frankly, more people should be up in arms that this new program benefits middle class students and leaves students from low income families in the same place they were before. I wish there was an income threshold that would allow room and board to be subsidized as well.

Full disclosure - I'm a homeowner without kids who won't be having kids. While I may grumble about paying school taxes, I received the benefit as a student and now I'm helping pay to educate the next generations.

 

[TwoMisfits]

I truly don't understand people who are up in arms about this program yet have no issues with local school taxes. .

What makes you think many of us don't? One could say if we fixed K-12 instead of throwing money at it, college degrees wouldn't be a requirement. Also, with the age of the internet/computer, so much of all schooling has become outdated and overly expensive vs what can be delivered online...a better idea would be to fix K-12 with this revolution in mind and take schooling to its logical, streamlined, efficient, and cost-effective approach...but so many need the daycare of schooling and not just the education...

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

...but so many need the daycare of schooling and not just the education...

Oh, you mean the 74% of women in the labor force between the ages of 20 and 54? This might be the single most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard about education.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Oh, you mean the 74% of women in the labor force between the ages of 20 and 54? This might be the single most ridiculous thing that I have ever heard about education.

I could respond at length to this, but it would take the board to more political than it should be and it's unlikely to be well-received by you. I will say your post is odd b/c why would only moms need daycare for their kids? Daycare tends to affect both parents when households decide to have all parents work (whether they are single mom, single dad, mom/dad, mom/mom, or dad/dad households)...Daycare is not an issue that only affects one gender of parent. But now, that's also off-topic, so it's all I'll post in response to your posts on this thread.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

I could respond at length to this, but it would take the board to more political than it should be and it's unlikely to be well-received by you. I will say your post is odd b/c why would only moms need daycare for their kids? Daycare tends to affect both parents when households decide to have all parents work (whether they are single mom, single dad, mom/dad, mom/mom, or dad/dad households)...Daycare is not an issue that only affects one gender of parent. But now, that's also off-topic, so it's all I'll post in response to your posts on this thread.

Does your husband stay home with your children? How many men do yo know that do? It surely affects families but social pressure, wage inequality and gender roles more severely affect women. Pretending otherwise is laughable.

And it isn't just about parents needs but also the needs of children. Schools provide an important means of socializing for most children, a needed skill in life and work. Online education can't replace that and nothing is nearly as good at supplementing it.

 

[rigs32]

So many young people these days can't think critically. Not because they can't, but they haven't been taught how. I can't imagine moving to an online only model.

 

[Dakota731]

I truly don't understand people who are up in arms about this program yet have no issues with local school taxes. .

I have a lot of problems with school taxes. Ours are $8000 a year for a moderate house, and our district spends $16000 PER student yet the results are less than stellar. I worked at a university for ten years and ONE THIRD of the entering freshman required remedial math and English. And many of these were honor roll kids in high school! My husband is a professor and is shocked how each year more of his students can barely read or write. And to read the essays of his MBA students is shocking. Many are at a grade school level yet these students were pushed through the system with As and Bs. So I am more than a little afraid that some of these students will graduate to be our doctors, nurses, attorneys etc.