Fate of the Moderate Resorts?

[Captain Crook]

Certainly your remarks are valid, but what about the person who is uncomfortable with the Beach Club rates and even if he scrimps & saves to stay there, still feels apprehensive due to the fact that the majority of the peope are, perhaps, far wealthier than he. Surely you must admit that the human ego in such matters isn't likely simply be put on the shelf?

IMO, it is elitist to feel that only one catagory of hotel (expensive) should exist at WDW and further, I believe it unfair to catagorize only the magic of the deluxe hotels as "real" magic when clearly many, many peope find great gobs of magic at the AS, for instance...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

…is the Cost/Magic ratio!!

The Experience itself is the product, period. We do not marvel at Peter Pan because we paid an affordable price for the ticket or DVD. I certainly was not thinking about price when I walked hand in hand down Main Street with my son the first time.

And this is where we part company. Price does matter. Suppose, for the sake of argument that you had to pay for each ride. Like ‘back in the day’. And further suppose that it cost ten dollars to ride Peter Pan, since it is your example. Is it still magical? Let’s make it free. Any more magical?

Let’s take it a bit further. We all, even the duffus complainers, love a day at WDW. We are filled with awe and wonder and delight. But suppose for a moment that the experience cost $500.00 a day. Does it still seem as wonderful? Does it still fill you with awe? Or are you a little disappointed that your every second wasn’t ‘electrifying’ at these prices? I know it affects my viewpoint.

And I think it especially plays a part in the resort stay. Many of us never knew such amenities before Disney let us in on their standards. Maybe you have to be from a certain economic class in the first place to fully understand the relationship between cost and experience. I suppose if I were simply oozing with money and someone tried to explain this concept I'd nod politely, smile warmly and not understand a word of it. But for many, the cost is magical in itself.

I guess what I’m saying, at least for the resorts is, if I pay for the deluxe accommodations I would expect nothing less than what I get from the Floridian or Poly. But if I am paying moderate prices and we have two table service restaurants, water activities, proximity to a park, monorail transportation, bell service in golf carts to and from the room, free package delivery in the room and all those other little Disney Standard Touches, then YES YES YES it is truly MAGICAL!!!!

True, the scope is smaller, but the concept is the same. Family A can afford PS's at Cinderella's Royal Table. They can afford to drop $30-40 per person on dinner and are treated as royalty in the castle. Family B can only budget for dinner at Cosmic Ray's.

Ahhhh! I see your point. But I still don’t like the analogy. You see, I think it’s more like Cinderella's Royal Table costing $30-$40 per and the Economy version, calling itself Cindy’s Castle, and putting out PR that it is still a Cinderella experience, costing half that amount. The only difference is that instead of being housed in Cinderella’s Castle it is in a nice cinderblock (pun intended) building that has a giant picture of her over the door. And they carry the exact same menu items. It’s just that the portions are cut in half. But hey!! It costs half as much!!

And to me, that just isn’t good “Disney” form.

Captain!!! I don’t have time right now, but I will over the week-end. And I will pull out thousands of Walt quotes that you will have to read proving just how wrong one Pirate can be. For now nigel-bigel is handling things beautifully!!!! Maybe she would do us the honor of choosing a car. I'll bet that the Captain loses that one too!!!!

 

[Captain Crook]

I'll bet the Captain loses that one too

My friend, have you looked at the results of the carpool poll lately? It appeas that the satisfied are still ahead here or are you using "Cubs logic" of some sort?

As for the Pirate, well. please leave him outta this!

 

[raidermatt]

nigel- We have to remember that not every family can affort deluxe resorts, even at discounted rates.

Also, for most families, their PRIMARY reason for visiting WDW, particularly if they do not visit often, is the theme parks. Moderate and Economy resorts allow them to do this. Don't get me wrong, Disney standards must still be upheld, but there are some families who just don't care if they have a sit-down restaurant at their resort. Its more important to them that they get to stay on-site, are treated as Disney guests, and get to treat their children to MK, MGM, etc...

From a business point of view, outside hotel operators provide moderate/economy resorts anyway. Since Disney does as well, these guests can still stay on-site, if they so choose, and are not excluded from staying "in the magic".

 

[Another Voice]

Rumor has it that the deluxes are generally filled with all those average people who scrimp and save for a “big” vacation and/or spend more on travel than the average American. Frankly, the Ritz-Carlton crowd doesn’t go to WDW and stay on property in great numbers. Even the Grand Floridian doesn’t lure in jet set vacationers (haven’t you ever wondered why they built a convention center there? Got to fill all those rooms somehow).

And the low-end All Stars aren’t filled with the hourly wage earners yearning for breathe of sweet Disney magic. Mostly they’re filled with people who, on average, visit more than once a year and are looking to save money. The same crowd that could afford either the Deluxe or Moderate level, but if you get the same “magical” Mickey Mouse soaps why pay extra. In effect, Disney has given people a great way to "trade down" their WDW trip rather than for people to "trade up" from an off-property hotel. The Moderates themselves are filled when the other two categories are filled and sold at very steep discounts to airlines, tour operators, conventions, cruise lines, and just about every place else they can dump a room.

Now of course there are always going to be individuals who don’t fit the pattern. But no matter how many pirates post about their individual preferences, that really doesn’t affect the overall trend that Disney deals with on so many hotel rooms. Class warfare theory is nice, and even some of Disney’s planning used a little of it, but things didn’t work out that way.

 

[raidermatt]

dvclb- I understand your argument, but still believe you are confusing the product with the value of the product.

And further suppose that it cost ten dollars to ride Peter Pan, since it is your example. Is it still magical? Let’s make it free. Any more magical?

In order, yes it is still magical at $10, and no its not more magical if its free. Assuming a well-maintained ride, friendly CMs, etc, I will always get the same amount of Pixie Dust (pd) from Peter Pan. That PD is the product. But there is a limit to what I'll pay for that product. As the price gets close to that limit, I become more concerned with my value, but I'm still getting the same product.

Using your resort example, lets say you get the deluxe amenities for a moderate price, and that makes it more magical for you than if you got them at a deluxe price. You're saying saying M=A+P, where M=magic, A=amenities, service, etc, and P=price satisfaction (the lower the price to you, the higher P, and therefore your magic goes). If that's the case, you should get just as much Magic if the Amenties are lowered, but price is lowered as well (meaning P increases). That sounds a lot like a Moderate or Economy resort. Yet that does not make you happy. Why? Because you are expecting a certain amount of magic or pixie dust, or whatever, without a care about cost. THAT is the product.

Now, the lower the price you pay, the more value you are getting, and certainly value can be a magical thing for all of us. But that value is not the product, its the proposition Disney is making to us. "We have lots of Pixie Dust here. Yes, you have to pay, but the PD you'll get is worth it. And if you want the PD from the parks and being on-site, but don't need the PD from the pool with a big clowns head, we'll charge you a little less".

 

[All Aboard]

AV, do you ever venture over to the resorts board? I just don't buy the argument that the only time the moderates are filled is when the deluxes and values are filled first. Seems PO/DxL/CSR/CBR are the first choice amongst many folks on these boards. Whenever I play around with the online booking engine, very often the mods booked up when there was still plenty of deluxe availability.
______________

As to the "elitist"argument. I would find it very elitist if Disney required you to spend a minimum of $200 a night just for the pleasure of being on-site. Requiring folks to "scrimp and save" every last nickel just to spend it all on accomodations is very un-Disney like in my vision of Disney. So what that it was that way with the first two hotels, by no means does that establish that it MUST be that way with all the hotels.

LB, you cannot eliminate the restaurant argument and be consistent with your point. If a Deluxe-only WDW is your vision, there is no place for Cosmic Ray's in that vision.

If my only choice was a $200 a night room, I'd be staying off site. Just simple economics.

 

[DC7800]

Originally posted by Another Voice
Rumor has it that the deluxes are generally filled with all those average people who scrimp and save for a “big” vacation and/or spend more on travel than the average American.

And the low-end All Stars aren’t filled with the hourly wage earners yearning for breathe of sweet Disney magic. Mostly they’re filled with people who, on average, visit more than once a year and are looking to save money. The same crowd that could afford either the Deluxe or Moderate level.

This makes perfect sense. A vacation in WDW involves choices, just like anything else. Almost everyone in WDW can afford the Grand Floridian (or Boardwalk, etc), whethor they're spending $500 or $5,000, if only for 1-3 nights in some cases. While those few days would be the most magical experience possible, such an apporach would mean doing WDW "commando style"; in such a case, you might as well stay at All-Stars (or even off-site), because you will not be able to take advantage of the resort amenities (which you pay for). That same person might afford 6-7 nights in a moderate or 10 in a value resort. Which wou choose is personal preference: spend more for superior lodging, or save that money for more character meals and the like.

I've stayed at each resort level. One odd thing I noted a few years ago was that we spent about the same total amount on vacation whethor we stayed in a moderate or value resort. Without completely realizing it, the moderate years we did more fast-food; All-Star years meant more entertaiment options and some of WDW's best restaurants.

and remember, alot, of families still stay offsite because they cannot afford the AllStar rates of 79-99 a night...

I know several families who stay off-site because they only think they cannot afford WDW resorts. They pay maybe $60-$100 per night in I-Drive or Irlo Bronson (as a walk-in), not realizing they could have All-Stars for about the same price. Sure, you can stay off-site for $40 or less in a nice location, but for me at least, the savings would not be worth it to miss the Disney "pixie-dust" experience. Many others apparently disagree, but can't help but think many of them don't realize what they're missing.

I just don't buy the argument that the only time the moderates are filled is when the deluxes and values are filled first. Seems PO/DxL/CSR/CBR are the first choice amongst many folks on these boards.

It's been a couple years perhaps, but I've been known to call WDW for a last-minute trip (1-2 days) to find nothing available except at the deluxe resorts (and no standard views there either). The only thing left was a higher-priced resort room. Incidentally, I didn't make reservations for last-weeks expedition to WDW until we reached Valdosta, GA. on the way down (I'd been hoping to reach Ocala before closing time, but didn't) Plenty of availability through CRO, but the only moderates they offered were Coronado and - surprisingly - Port Orleans Riverside (water view).

 

[nigel-bigel]

I think a lot of this debate could be resolved if Disney would only change what they call the moderate and bugets. "Budget resort" is almost an oxymoron! This isn't just semantics.

When you hear "resort", you think of something like GF. Trying to be all things to all people means presenting the AS as resorts, and they just are not that. If Disney has set their standard of excellence for a resort as the GF or YC, then they have no choice but to compomise quality to provide lower-priced "resorts". Instead, call the budgets "motels" or "lodges" or whatever, and then excell at providing THAT experience.

The same argument could be made for the moderates; call them "hotels" or "courtyards" or "foxholes". Every place to buy food at WDW isn't a restaurant, so why is every place to sleep called a resort?

I don't have a problem with a company marketing to all segments of it's market. But producing products with varying degrees of quality only degrades your brand. Further, a degraded brand seems to lead to a lesser product, and on and on.

I also must add that I know very little about Walt and his vision, especially compared to you guys! But everything I've learned about the man and his vision leads me to believe he would in ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY want a property like the AS to have his name on them. Are they an immersion in an idyllic fairy-tale world, with no point overlooked, no detail too small for the Disney Magic? I'm thinking no. Soap does not magic make.

Okay, okay, I chose a car. I went w/#2, optomistically, b/c I was really between 2 and 3. I don't think the magic is in SERIOUS jeopardy, but it is trouble, and I don't think the magic will ever be what it was originally. (But that's what happens when you have business people at the helm, instead of talent. A perfect example is the auto companies. The demise of the Big 3 began when accountants and marketing guys started leading the companies instead of the engineers.) The maketing push is too in-your-face, and unfortunately, successful, to ever abate. I'm talking about things like taking photos of guests at every turn, or having a store at the exit of every attraction. These things cheapen the Disney experience.

But the I think the service, cleanliness, and attention to detail will always be there. In summary, I don't think Disney will ever be what it once was, they seem to have lost thier "innocence", but it will still be head and shoulders above others.

And dscoop, we are big Wolverine fans at our house! My DH went to Michigan, and is a big football fan. The University itself, however, has seen lots of changes, and none of them good, IMHO. But that is another topic for another board. Actually, it IS quite similar to our discussion here - that they -U of M- are lessening their reputation for excellence by providing a lesser product.

I'm not going to be around for the rest of the day, but you guys have fun!

Nicole

 

[Another Voice]

The average poster on the Internet is no the same as the average guest at WDW.

Postings even on the resorts boards aren’t always reflective of market forces that Disney has to deal with. Again, there are always individual exceptions to the trends – but Disney makes most of its money from following trends and that is where its interests are.

The original resorts were designed to be true resorts, first quality hotels with all the amenities, services and activities that other resort hotel offer. Disney’s just happened to be located at WDW instead of the Hawaii or Hilton Head.

These days, The Company thinks of the property by using the cruise ship metaphor. “Walt Disney World” is the resort – the hotels are simply the accommodations. The parks, gates, and shopping areas are the resorts (i.e., WDW’s) “common areas”, the hotels are the “cabins” that come with varying levels of amenities at different price points. And like cruise ships, the goal is to get people out of there rooms and out spending money.

If this is a good thing or a bad thing probably depends on how a person sees there WDW trip. For a lot of people (and probably most people around here), just being at WDW is the trip – few are looking for a full-blown resort trip. Others who are not so enthralled with all things Mouse might be interested in more resorts experience – tennis, boating, jogging, restaurants, etc.

 

[All Aboard]

I also must add that I know very little about Walt and his vision, especially compared to you guys! But everything I've learned about the man and his vision leads me to believe he would in ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY want a property like the AS to have his name on them. Are they an immersion in an idyllic fairy-tale world, with no point overlooked, no detail too small for the Disney Magic? I'm thinking no. Soap does not magic make.

I tend to believe Jim Hill when he writes that it was virtually impossible to predict what Walt would approve of when he was alive and that making any guesses about what he WOULD have approved of today is truly impossible. Even for those who were closest to him.

First question, have you ever stayed at the All Stars? If not, I hope you do (especially Movies) because you just might find Magic in more than the soap.

Just a few weeks ago I noticed something for the first time. Something small, seemingly insignificant. Something that could (and likely does) get overlooked by most guests. I was standing on the balcony outside our third floor room (Pongo Building) that overlooked the courtyard. Nat was fast asleep inside after a long night at MVMCP. As I scanned the property from my perch, admiring all the wonderful sights that you'd never ever see at the Motel 6 some folks compare ASMo to, something struck me. The bushes below me. The wide patch of manicured shrubbery that lined the side of the courtyard. It was planted with two distinctly different shades of bushes in a manner that appeared to give it big spots. Like Dalmatians.

 

[Lesley]

I tend to believe Jim Hill when he writes that it was virtually impossible to predict what Walt would

Very true. Who would have thought that the noted and popular mainstream pediatrician Dr. Benjamin Spock would have promoted a vegan diet for all people, including children, by the end of his life? (Which he did) I think we may have seen some similarly shocking ideas coming from Walt....people are funny that way...unpredictable!

And, who knows, perhaps someday I too will sing the praises of the All Stars.....I don't think I could possibly hate any stay on WDW property...but for now I'm still avoiding them.

 

[Lesley]

Sorry, the portion that I quoted was cut off...intended to quote that entire paragraph...

 

[DisDuck]

Happy New Year Folks.. This thread feels very been there/done that to me (like maybe last year). The only thing a 'caste' system brings to mind is British India, Rajah's and all that.

Thanks gcurling for your 'shrub' comment. When I stayed at AllS Movie, Perdi(sp?) I did not notice the 'spots'. But I did feel 'Disney' which I don't feel off-site at my timeshare (as nice as it is with 7 pools, etc).

I find nothing wrong nor un-Disney like in providing various levels of accomodations. Any one remember the Disney Inn. Wasn't this an attempt at a lower price scale than the 'deluxes'? How come no one is complaining about that 'idea'?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Happy New Year Folks

And right back at ya, Mr. Duck!!! Happy New Year!!

This thread feels very been there/done that to me (like maybe last year).

I agree!! That, and a very busy weekend, has kept me from posting. However, you did say something that wasn't quite right as I see it. Sorry to pick on yours in particular, as there have been many points throughout the thread that disagree with, but not only was yours the most recent (after playing catch-up today) it was also the easiest to answer!!

Any one remember the Disney Inn. Wasn't this an attempt at a lower price scale than the 'deluxes'? How come no one is complaining about that 'idea'?

I don’t complain about it because that was not the intent!! Remember it started life as The Golf Resort. And as such offered ‘golfers’, who may not really enjoy the hustle and bustle of the ‘theme park experience’, a quiet and serene escape into a tranquil golf experience – ‘Disney Style’.

They had planned to cater to many vacation experiences other than theme parks. The problem, as I see it, was that Walker/Miller didn’t have a clue as to how to implement them (and Ei$ner didn't either it seems. Read: The Institute!). Maybe no one can!! Or perhaps the public didn’t let them. You may be right. Maybe the Golf thing never took off like the wanted it to. Instead, theme park vacationers booked it to get a slightly cheaper rate and never cared about the Disney Golf Experience. In either case, it was not born to be a ‘cheaper’ alternative to the Poly or the Contemporary. It was supposed to be… different.

 

[Laura's Dad]

We love the moderate resorts. They are priced in OUR price range and have the Disney magic that we have come to expect on our WDW vacations. What is wrong with being in the middle. I cannot afford $300 a night for a hotel and, like many, DON'T like the All-Stars theming. I would like to think that there are many people out there like us. We have stayed at Moderates 4 times, and are going back in June.

 

[BostonTigger]

I doubt that Disney would give up such a huge niche, I for one can't afford the Deluxe rates and I sure don't want to spend time at the All-Stars.

 

[disboo]

Put me down as another moderate lover. On a couple of occasions I have stayed at deluxes, and boy were they great! But, I have been just as impressed at the moderates - particularly PO-FQ. The landscaping, the quiet pools, the great view from our window, the lobby and the lounges were all wonderful - at a proce I could afford.

I have stayed once at the AS, and it was fine. The grounds are nicer than a cheap hotel, and the bustling food court was actually pleasant, but it was not my idea of a bit of a splurge, which I want at WDW.

I have stayed offsite (DTD and completely offsite) at nice hotels, too, and had a good, but different type of experience - not the total Disney immersion I prefer.

I can'y believe they would cut out their entire middle-of-the-road customer, like me and my family.

 

[marty3d]

I also don't believe the moderates will disappear. I was at WDW last week and I asked about PO-FQ and was told that it was scheduled for re-opening in November. It is supposed to go through complete refurbishment over the spring/ summer.

 

[YoHo]

Wow, All this from a lowly little theory I posted months ago in a different thread.

I'll just re-iterate I think the moderaqte resorts are great, I just suspect that the profit per guest is lower for these then the Values and the Deluxe, thus they may be the first to see the axe.