Fast Pass Return Window Changes?

[PirateFrank]

My vote is for rumor... as always.

Late FP doesn't affect other guests standing in line.

Sure it does...the objective of fast pass is rider redistribution/normalization. If you can spread out the rider volume of a ride to other discrete segments of the day, you are preventing peak loads.

Unfortunately, Disney never embraced the other necessary half of this system...so what it essentially does is transplant a segment of riders from earlier in the day, to later in the day. If the fast pass return times were enforced, you'd likely see a lessened impact to stand by times, as you'd have less volume of people interrupting the queue from the fast pass line.

Now, personally, I can not see Disney enforcing late return, unless fp is something that becomes something that guests pay for (and if that happens, thats a whole new bag of venomous snakes)....and the reason I can't see Disney enforce it, is that they don't want to piss off guests....

Personally, I would love to see them enforce the return time... As fast pass will cease to be the reason for some of the intense waits in wow....

 

[Robo]

Sure it does...the objective of fast pass is rider redistribution/normalization. If you can spread out the rider volume of a ride to other discrete segments of the day, you are preventing peak loads.

Unfortunately, Disney never embraced the other necessary half of this system...so what it essentially does is transplant a segment of riders from earlier in the day, to later in the day. If the fast pass return times were enforced, you'd likely see a lessened impact to stand by times, as you'd have less volume of people interrupting the queue from the fast pass line.

Sorry.
Not the case, as has been explained in these threads many times.

 

[kamik86]

Sorry.
Not the case, as has been explained in these threads many times.

I actually understand that theory (and btw agree with leaving the fp system the way it is now) but just for discussion. The argument does have one place it breaks down, especially during slower times.

If the fast pass line ever completely empties. Because normally the CMs have a ratio of how many fp uses to let in per person in standby. But if the fp line is empty they aren't leaving extra seats so more standby people got in during that time and actually decreased the standby wait time. But when all those people come back later and get in the fastpass line one of two things would have to happen:

1. Adjust the ratio to allow more fp uses in and control the large influx. This would slow the standby line down. Granted this slowing would be normalizing back to what it would have been had those guests gotten in the fp line on time (so instead of just standing in place and letting fp guests pass, they stood to the side and let some standby ones in too). However this would make the posted time on the ride inaccurate.

2. Continue as normal which makes for a long fp line that would stay backed up as more guests times come available and they get in line. This would have no affect on the standby line however.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I guess we will all just have to wait until Septmeber 1, 2011 and see what happens

AKK

 

[PirateFrank]

Sorry.
Not the case, as has been explained in these threads many times.

What is not the case? That fast pass is not a rider redistribution methodology or that Disney is not enforcing return times....because these were the only 'facts' I asserted in my post....and so sorry, but both are indeed the case.

 

[seashoreCM]

Maybe this would work: Not enforcing return times but also not cutting back the standby riders to almost nothing as soon as a deluge of fastpass riders arrives.

The aim is that the standby wait time sign would be suddenly adjusted upwards but standby guests who already passed the sign would be accommodated reasonably.

 

[BelleBway]

Fwiw, I just came back from WDW and a CM who was sprinkling us with pixie dust in various ways told me (as if he was giving me a secret) that you don't need to return before the end of the FP window. If he'd known of any impending change, I can't imagine he wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[stargazertechie]

Sure it does...the objective of fast pass is rider redistribution/normalization. If you can spread out the rider volume of a ride to other discrete segments of the day, you are preventing peak loads.

Unfortunately, Disney never embraced the other necessary half of this system...so what it essentially does is transplant a segment of riders from earlier in the day, to later in the day. If the fast pass return times were enforced, you'd likely see a lessened impact to stand by times, as you'd have less volume of people interrupting the queue from the fast pass line.

Now, personally, I can not see Disney enforcing late return, unless fp is something that becomes something that guests pay for (and if that happens, thats a whole new bag of venomous snakes)....and the reason I can't see Disney enforce it, is that they don't want to piss off guests....

Personally, I would love to see them enforce the return time... As fast pass will cease to be the reason for some of the intense waits in wow....

Oh boy, here we go

Imagine that FP is an invisible line going through the park. If I pull a FP with a return time of 10:30 AM, I am "in front" of anyone who pulls a FP return of 10:31 or later. If I choose to return late, all I am doing is letting hundreds of people cut in front of me. When I return at 7:30 PM, regardless of who is in line, I am not impacting their wait (standby or FP) as I was already ahead of them in line, I am not a newcomer to the line. The FP system had already accounted for me taking up a spot in that attraction.

Remember, posters on the DIS are a negligible fraction of the total park visitors. MOST people return during their window, as they don't know better. The minute amount of people who return late do not affect others for the reason stated above.

 

[PirateFrank]

I actually understand that theory (and btw agree with leaving the fp system the way it is now) but just for discussion. The argument does have one place it breaks down, especially during slower times.

If the fast pass line ever completely empties. Because normally the CMs have a ratio of how many fp uses to let in per person in standby. But if the fp line is empty they aren't leaving extra seats so more standby people got in during that time and actually decreased the standby wait time.

I see your point, but I'm not sure it's where my point breaks down....

I'll tell you where my point breaks down....if one assumes a constant flow of fast pass riders and a fixed merge ratio, the addition of fast pass riders at any point of time would likely not affect the standby waits....

I personally do not feel that all cast members adhere to a merge ratio. Especially when there is a large line of fast pass returnees....they tend to let more returnees in than stand by guests, which negatively impacts the standyby line.....

Since return times are not enforced, you end up getting large blocks of returnees during times that do not coincide with parades, fireworks, shows, rainstorms, etc....during those windows, you get a peak of fast pass returnees....and cast members seem to adapt to the lines to prevent the fast pass line from getting out of hand....

 

[PIRATEGIRL007]

Being able to use your fastpass anytime later due to ride breakdown has always been official.
Being able to use your fastpass anytime later for convenience has always been informal.One new idea is worth considering -- Defining certain critical hours such as just after a parade when expired fastpasses would not be honored. Together with "validating" machines at rides that will stamp a fastpass as non-expiring, for use when a ride is down.

bolding mine
So it wasn't official when disney printed advice to get all your FP's early in the day to use throughout the day in case they run out it on the BD FP literature and the literature with the GAD FP cards they gave out in 2009 and 2010?

 

[PirateFrank]

Oh boy, here we go

Imagine that FP is an invisible line going through the park. If I pull a FP with a return time of 10:30 AM, I am "in front" of anyone who pulls a FP return of 10:31 or later. If I choose to return late, all I am doing is letting hundreds of people cut in front of me. When I return at 7:30 PM, regardless of who is in line, I am not impacting their wait (standby or FP) as I was already ahead of them in line, I am not a newcomer to the line. The FP system had already accounted for me taking up a spot in that attraction.

Thanks for the illustration. I see your point, but respectfully disagree with you. The Standby wait times are adjusted real time, with the use of those neck tags handed to guests. That does not take into account the fast pass holders that have not yet returned...all it does is report the wait time at the most recent sampling. That breaks down in the event where you get on a line in standby, with relatively light fast pass returnee...say during a parade. I you're still on line prior to the merge when the parade ends and a rush of returnees get in the fp line, your wait time as quoted, is suddenly and negatively impacted.

Remember, posters on the DIS are a negligible fraction of the total park visitors. MOST people return during their window, as they don't know better. The minute amount of people who return late do not affect others for the reason stated above.

With all due respect, I think you're making an assumption there....I don't think the number of returnees that ignore the return time is a negligible number....while it may not be a majority number, I do believe it's more than negligible...and enough to make an impact...



Listen, folks, I'm not trying to start a fight here....so the "here we go again" comments are both not necessary and can be misconstrued as self serving. I enjoy this kind of guest flow debate ...and I don't really care whether fast pass is one way or another way....I do believe that not enforcing return times has an affect...especially during times immediately after parades and rainstorms....

 

[seashoreCM]

bolding mine
So it wasn't official when disney printed advice to get all your FP's early in the day to use throughout the day in case they run out it on the BD FP literature and the literature with the GAD FP cards they gave out in 2009 and 2010?

I have not been fortunate enough to be there on my birthday or have a chance to volunteer at a participating organization or find a link to that literature as a pdf file and therefore have not seen that literature.

But I was told that the birthday and give a day fastpasses were valid immediately upon issuance and did not have time windows. Also BD and GAD fastpasses could be pulled even after the regular fastpasses were sold out for the day.

Anyone have an unused BD or GAD fastpass they didn't use, took home as a souvenir, and could post a picture of here?

 

[rznhal]

Although I do find it mildly amusing when people beleive the more outlandish ones. Anyone remember RnR retheming to Hannah Montana days? Oh those were a hoot.

Wish I coulda been here for that! LOL I bet that was mutinous!!!!

 

[stargazertechie]

Thanks for the illustration. I see your point, but respectfully disagree with you. The Standby wait times are adjusted real time, with the use of those neck tags handed to guests. That does not take into account the fast pass holders that have not yet returned...all it does is report the wait time at the most recent sampling. That breaks down in the event where you get on a line in standby, with relatively light fast pass returnee...say during a parade. I you're still on line prior to the merge when the parade ends and a rush of returnees get in the fp line, your wait time as quoted, is suddenly and negatively impacted.

And to the same thing- wait times aren't instantly adjusted after parades/rainstorms when guests flood the standby line either. It takes awhile for the person with the red tag to get through the line.

 

[PirateFrank]

And to the same thing- wait times aren't instantly adjusted after parades/rainstorms when guests flood the standby line either. It takes awhile for the person with the red tag to get through the line.

Right, but that's just my point....after that parade or rainstorm, you're getting a flood of fp returnees....a percentage of which are not returning in their window....and that increase of the fp line negatively impacts the standby line...

 

[stargazertechie]

Right, but that's just my point....after that parade or rainstorm, you're getting a flood of fp returnees....a percentage of which are not returning in their window....and that increase of the fp line negatively impacts the standby line...

Which is negated by the shorter-than-expected FP lines earlier. There have been times when I was in the single rider for RNR, and there was not a single person "waiting to merge" from the FP line. I've had the same experience at Test Track, Space Mountain, Soarin, and several other FP rides.

 

[DeaverTex]

I finally agree that a mass of FP returns doesn't technically affect the stand-by line, because those people have been in line all the time -- just standing "somewhere else." However, if I'm in the stand-by line, and 200 people from a parade suddenly enter the FP line, my actual wait time in line has increased by some factor that will be determined by the cast member who's letting people in from the two lines. This is particularly true if the FP line through some set of circumstances suddenly goes from empty to 200 people.

I haven't been made to wait unfairly, because all of those people were already technically ahead of me in line. But I'll have to wait for longer than I originally thought when I entered the line, because they are now 200 additional people PHYSICALLY ahead of me in line, requiring a spot on the ride. Which they will (and should) get before I do. I'll be getting on the ride at the same time that I would have if everyone had been actually standing in line all along, but not as soon as I thought I would when I got into line.

I don't see that any feasible method, short of putting a chip or OCR strip into the fast passes (not likely!), of getting around this either. It would just be too complicated to try to enforce fast pass windows with cast members, not to mention causing too many arguments.

 

[disney_bob]

Interestingly (and slightly off topic), if you take a look at the patent for the fast pass system idea Disney specifically tried to create the fast pass system in a manner that avoided allowing guests to return whenever they pleased:

"A problem with the Mahoney scheme is that it allows customers to reserve the right to use a number of attractions, potentially preventing others from using the attractions. Another problem is that by allowing the customer to select a time slot, the Mahoney system lacks responsiveness to changing ride conditions and performance data. In addition, the slots themselves are determined by a pre-established allotment. Such advance assignment of time slots suffers from the same disadvantages as the above-described first known scheme in that there is no dynamic changing of time slot allocation based on actual attraction conditions. This condition could result in customers being required to stand in line if conditions have slowed down, eliminating the very benefit the system is intended to provide. Mahoney suggests that if such a situation occurs, then customers who do not have passes will be required to wait longer than customers that do have passes. However, such a solution still could require substantial wait time for customers with passes, and leads to unacceptable wait times for customers without passes. Another problem with permitting customers to select time slots is that all of the time slots may be selected for certain periods of the day, such as 2-5 p.m., while few or none of the slots may be selected for other periods of the day, such as 12-1 p.m. In this arrangement, the attraction may be underutilized during certain periods of time. "

Personally, I'm not completely convinced that it has no effect on "later guests". I haven't seen a 100% convincing argument.

 

[mesaboy2]

stargazertechie: you know it's not really until hookedonears shows up that the fun really begins! I wish you luck....

Same old arguments, different day. I'm sure those of you just arriving think nobody's ever thought of this stuff before.

I bow out of this thread now.