Fast Pass Return Time Enforcement

[Mugglemama]

Despite having had AP's for 2 consecutive years and living close enough to be in the parks every week (sometimes two or three times), and then several years afterward of doing multi-day trips every other year...I didn't know about the FP "trick" until 2010.

While I feel like the "trick" helped us in some very specific situations....the truth is, I think the most effective strategy (for us, anyway) was just having a plan in the first place. As long as I use an itinerary and follow some basic guidelines, I actually think staying in one area of one park and going to the attractions in that area while waiting to use a FP in that area works well enough for my group.

We were just in the parks a few weeks ago, and showed up without ANY kind of plan (something my husband wanted to do after our last visit having been very "scheduled" for about half of each day). It was the pits! Lol! No amount of FP's really helped in that situation...we did a lot more fruitless walking than we did when we had a plan, and the truth is, we only used ONE fast pass later than the time stamped on it. Granted, it wasn't an extremely busy time in the parks.

At first, I was kind of bummed when I read that there was a chance that the return times may be enforced before too long....after thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that I've learned enough about maximizing time in the park and developing a touring plan for each day, that a change in that rule isn't really going to make anything worse for my family. In fact, it might even simplify things for me, personally (since I am the one who creates the detailed itineraries for our group).

To be honest, the stress of "running" to get FP's for as many things as possible at any given time *did* kind of sap some of the fun out of our trip when we chose to utilize that strategy. That's not to say, however, that I wasn't thrilled to able to walk-on to Splash at my convenience when the stand-by time was 90 minutes.

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what happens!

 

[kiwitravel]

I know that your situation is hypothetical, but in reality this lax return policy works BECAUSE not everyone knows about it. It seems as though this new policy severely limits the small percentage of people who are "in the know" and could only slightly benefit regular guests. It may or may not benefit CMs more. That I do not know.

And you are right in that if this policy were to be enforced it would decrease the FP lines probably a marginal amount. That's the small benefit to normal guests. But for me, I'd rather have the flexibility in knowing that I can come back whenever and have a potentially slightly longer FP line.

If the policy was enforced it would reduce the normal line as well as the FP line.... The extra FPs entering the FP line that are expired means the normal line is slowed as well (usually in the busiest times of the day)... most of the FPs integrate into the normal line...

I noticed last trip that there were more waits in the FP line and it may be because the secret is out and more people are in the know... This may well be the driving force in the policy change...

 

[HydroGuy]

If the policy was enforced it would reduce the normal line as well as the FP line.... The extra FPs entering the FP line that are expired means the normal line is slowed as well (usually in the busiest times of the day)... most of the FPs integrate into the normal line...

I noticed last trip that there were more waits in the FP line and it may be because the secret is out and more people are in the know... This may well be the driving force in the policy change...

As discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength on the WDW forum, things are not that simple. When a FP gets used late then everyone in the standby line during the assigned hour moves faster because the FP did not get used in that hour.

 

[HydroGuy]

For the people who don't want the rules enforced, I'm wondering if they remember the purpose for the fastpass in the first place?

It's so you don't have to wait in a long line. They give an allotted number of slots for the window for you to return so the stand by line can be shorter (since people will opt to return later) and the fastpass line will move quickly because there aren't a lot of people in it.

I realize the Disney has been lax about the return policy but that shouldn't be a blanket OK to take advantage of the system.

If everyone waits until when they feels like it to return (and if that happens to be all at once) then in all likelihood the fastpass line will be long and defeat the purpose of the fastpass in the first place.

Actually, that was only part of the reason. When you are in line you can't spend money. The idea was not to save you time in line. It was to free you up to buy stuff. Disney viewed it as money maker - not just a guest perk.

 

[Disney Dreams]

When a FP gets used late then everyone in the standby line during the assigned hour moves faster because the FP did not get used in that hour.

While this is true, it is an easily-seen observation that the Park is more crowded in the evening than earlier in the day. Therefore, by collecting during the day and using at night, the impact on the stand-by lines is more significant at night than the release on the same lines during the day.

- Dreams

 

[kiwitravel]

As discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength on the WDW forum, things are not that simple. When a FP gets used late then everyone in the standby line during the assigned hour moves faster because the FP did not get used in that hour.

Sounds logical but the statement is fundamentally flawed... At the start of the day the return time is very short, often to times when the normal line is at its shortest of the day or even a walk on... Now those FPs were designed to return during this time are now pushed back to when the ride is at its busiest affecting both the FP line AND the normal line... Yes a number of people may use the FP that falls due in that busy time a bit later but it will be more than overwelmed by the 3 or 4 hours of FPs taken earlier but used later...

 

[DLR29]

Sounds logical but the statement is fundamentally flawed... At the start of the day the return time is very short, often to times when the normal line is at its shortest of the day or even a walk on... Now those FPs were designed to return during this time are now pushed back to when the ride is at its busiest affecting both the FP line AND the normal line... Yes a number of people may use the FP that falls due in that busy time a bit later but it will be more than overwelmed by the 3 or 4 hours of FPs taken earlier but used later...

So therefore, if the return time were to be enforced, it would increase wait times (both FP and stand-by) in the early morning when lines are shortest? Because people would be forced to come back to FP rides starting at 8:40-9:40.

 

[kiwitravel]

So therefore, if the return time were to be enforced, it would increase wait times (both FP and stand-by) in the early morning when lines are shortest? Because people would be forced to come back to FP rides starting at 8:40-9:40.

If FP times were enforced then FP wait times will be minimal as the FP system will work as designed... However yes wait times (such as they are) in the early to mid morning will be longer than would have been if the rule was not enforced... All we are saying is this is preferable to later in the day when the standby lines get out to over an hour... One of the reasons that these lines get so long is because the rule isn't enforced...

 

[BNM]

If FP times were enforced then FP wait times will be minimal as the FP system will work as designed... However yes wait times (such as they are) in the early to mid morning will be longer than would have been if the rule was not enforced... All we are saying is this is preferable to later in the day when the standby lines get out to over an hour... One of the reasons that these lines get so long is because the rule isn't enforced...

If FP times were enforced then FP wait times will be minimal as the FP system will work as designed... However yes wait times (such as they are) in the early to mid morning will be longer than would have been if the rule was not enforced... All we are saying is this is preferable to later in the day when the standby lines get out to over an hour... One of the reasons that these lines get so long is because the rule isn't enforced...

I disagree. The reason the lines get so long then is because more people want to ride at that time. There are more people in the park. There are too many factors at play for any of us to determine what, if any, effect enforcement of return times will have. One person's observation of a long FP line means nothing. You don't know how many of the guests in that line are using the FP at the end of the window, how many at the beginning, and how many late. You don't know what effect changing things will have. If the window is enforced you could have more no-shows ( good for lines). Or you could have more people staying in the park until dinner time and collecting and using the FP the whole day ( bad for both lines in the middle of the day).

For a ride like Soarin that doesnt load continuously, the FP line could get long (longer than standby, in some cases) even if ALL of the guests are still within the window, if they all decide to come at the same time.

Since this is not being implemented at DL (if someone has some official info to the contrary, that would be news to me), we will have the opportunity to see what the effects are at WDW. My guess is there will be NO effect.

Some are saying the system is not working "as designed.". Often, these are the same people who say hardly anyone knows you can use FP late. BOTH can't be the case. At DL I think late FP use has MUCH LESS potential to cause problems than at WDW.

Because of the greater proportion of repeat visitors there is less need to "do it all". And, there is NO FP for some rides ( TSMM, Peter pan) for which there are FP at WDW.

 

[DLR29]

If FP times were enforced then FP wait times will be minimal as the FP system will work as designed... However yes wait times (such as they are) in the early to mid morning will be longer than would have been if the rule was not enforced... All we are saying is this is preferable to later in the day when the standby lines get out to over an hour... One of the reasons that these lines get so long is because the rule isn't enforced...

So we agree to disagree based on preferences.

You would prefer to have the FP return times enforced with somewhat longer lines in the morning and somewhat shorter lines in the afternoon.

I would prefer the flexibility and somewhat shorter lines in the morning, taking the chance that the lines might be a little bit longer in the afternoon (although if I can use my FPs late, that shouldn't be an issue to me).

I do agree with BNM too in that I don't think that there are enough late FP users to make it one of the major causes for longer lines in the afternoon. Granted it's still all speculation because we haven't seen any policy change.

 

[HydroGuy]

As discussed at leeeeeeeeeeength on the WDW forum, things are not that simple. When a FP gets used late then everyone in the standby line during the assigned hour moves faster because the FP did not get used in that hour.

While this is true, it is an easily-seen observation that the Park is more crowded in the evening than earlier in the day. Therefore, by collecting during the day and using at night, the impact on the stand-by lines is more significant at night than the release on the same lines during the day.

- Dreams

Sounds logical but the statement is fundamentally flawed... At the start of the day the return time is very short, often to times when the normal line is at its shortest of the day or even a walk on... Now those FPs were designed to return during this time are now pushed back to when the ride is at its busiest affecting both the FP line AND the normal line... Yes a number of people may use the FP that falls due in that busy time a bit later but it will be more than overwelmed by the 3 or 4 hours of FPs taken earlier but used later...

Just sayin', I made a very narrow statement and it is absolutely true. Then there was disagreement directed towards me about things I did not say.

I agree there are impacts on late FP usage. My statement was that it helps those in the standby line during the hour it was supposed to be used.

The impact of other earlier FPs issued or those used later is another discussion. FWIW, I tend to agree down the line with Doconeill over on the WDW forum. I am not interested in getting a big debate stirred up. Doc's point is that using FP late helps some and hurts others, but the help and hurt is minimal.

Which is not to say I am bent out of shape on the prospect of FP window enforcement. I am just relating my sense of what I think happens.

 

[kiwitravel]

Just sayin', I made a very narrow statement and it is absolutely true. Then there was disagreement directed towards me about things I did not say.

I agree there are impacts on late FP usage. My statement was that it helps those in the standby line during the hour it was supposed to be used. .

Yes fair call, but it was what you didn't say in your last post I had the issue with... I agree though that I am not going to lose any sleep when DL starts to enforce the return times... A Cast Member has posted that it is to be enforced in DL but to be implemented in DW first... It apparently has something to do with a new FP system being implemented where you will be able to plan FPs online ....

 

[HydroGuy]

Yes fair call, but it was what you didn't say in your last post I had the issue with... I agree though that I am not going to lose any sleep when DL starts to enforce the return times... A Cast Member has posted that it is to be enforced in DL but to be implemented in DW first... It apparently has something to do with a new FP system being implemented where you will be able to plan FPs online ....

That is part of the really long debate over on the WDW forum. It is called XPass or NextGen or something.

Will be interesting.

 

[Rhonna]

Doc's point is that using FP late helps some and hurts others, but the help and hurt is minimal.

I had followed some of those threads when they first came out, then gave up. I remember there were a LOT of variables and that is why your brief comments are being slightly misunderstood on this thread - I don't want to add to that but I would really like to know, in a nutshell, who gets hurt (minimally) and who gets helped (minimally) if they DO start to enforce the return times? (I admit I am asking purely for selfish reasons).

Thanks!

 

[TigerlilyAJ]

I disagree. The reason the lines get so long then is because more people want to ride at that time. There are more people in the park. There are too many factors at play for any of us to determine what, if any, effect enforcement of return times will have. One person's observation of a long FP line means nothing. You don't know how many of the guests in that line are using the FP at the end of the window, how many at the beginning, and how many late. You don't know what effect changing things will have. If the window is enforced you could have more no-shows ( good for lines). Or you could have more people staying in the park until dinner time and collecting and using the FP the whole day ( bad for both lines in the middle of the day).

I disagree with others' assertion (not BNM's) that the hurt and harm are equal throughout the day. Yes, moving people to riding at different times means it alleviates lines at some times (help) but therefore adds to the length of lines at their actual assigned time (hurt). But as BNM describes, the lines are generally different lengths for rides regardless of any FP system because of when people arrive at and leave the park. So anything that alleviates lines at those high-use crunch times could be more of a help to more people standing in lines whether they're in the FP line with a correct time window or in the standby line, and would impact fewer people by making the morning lines a little longer.
Not to mention that the later it is in the day, the more potential people there are with earlier FPs, so the potential for more hurt grows. At noon, there can only be noon FPs and morning FPs in the line. By 5pm, there could be people from the morning FP times plus the entire afternoon clogging up the 5pm FP holders' line.
But I also am not sure the morning lines would be that different in that currently, those who want the FP to be an "anytime" pass grab morning FPs with runners or just grabbing FPs willy-nilly when they have NO interest or intent to ride those rides in the morning. So now the morning lines would only have people who want to be on ride X right then. You wouldn't send a runner to Land A when your party intends to spend a couple of hours in Land B because you wouldn't want to risk either losing the FP because you couldn't make the window OR you would have to curtail your Land B plans to hustle over to Land A to get on the FP ride. Only people who really want that ride in the morning, people who intend to stay in Land A close to the ride, would take those morning passes.
So to me, FP time enforcement could enhance both efficiency and (my concept of) fairness by having people try for FPs closer to the time they actually want to ride. People who want to get those big FP rides done first thing when they arrive would not find that they end up with an afternoon FP because others who want to ride, oh, you know, some time that day grabbed the earliest passes. People who have the latest FPs wouldn't find themselves standing behind people whose FPs expired hours earlier. People who want flexibility in their plans can take their chances with standby lines or limit getting FPs for the rides they care most about, the ones they'd be willing to change their touring for so they can get to that ride during their FP window. That seems to be making the system work as designed and getting people to be more careful in assessing when and if to get an FP.

 

[HydroGuy]

I had followed some of those threads when they first came out, then gave up. I remember there were a LOT of variables and that is why your brief comments are being slightly misunderstood on this thread - I don't want to add to that but I would really like to know, in a nutshell, who gets hurt (minimally) and who gets helped (minimally) if they DO start to enforce the return times? (I admit I am asking purely for selfish reasons).

Thanks!

First, I read most of that WDW thread (with like 2000 posts!) and from long experience I avoid engaging in threads where people hypothesize about how FP helps or hurts. As in, "assume 400 people enter the standby line at 11AM..." I think those hypotheticals just don't work very well. IMO Doconeill was one of the few who limited hypothesizing and made a well thought-out argument.

Doconeill's basic point - which I agree with - mostly - is that a queue is a zero sum game. There are only so many people who can ride a ride in a day. Those riders are standby riders and FP riders. As long as the flow of people is steady and the ride never becomes a walk-on then if I have a FP for say 10-11AM and choose to use it at say 4PM, then everyone in the standby line from 11AM-4PM benefitted by being able to ride the ride sooner (by one person) - because I never went by 11AM and used the FP. So those standby riders all benefitted.

Those in the standby line at 4PM when I actually use the late FP thought they were getting in a certain length line and that all FPs from 10-11AM were used already. But they weren't. So if I come back at 4PM those in the standby line at that point are hurt because the line becomes longer in an unexpected way when a late FP user goes ahead of them.

Even so, the hurt is minimal because the standby line at 4PM was already shorter than it otherwise would have been because the FP was never used by 11AM in the first place.

I agree with this in general, but there are numerous other variables that come into play. Chief among them is that people do have a wait tolerance. So if a standby line at 4PM is 60 minutes long - caused in part by late FP users - some people will not enter that standby line at all. If the standby line was only 45 minutes long, then some will enter the standby line who would not have if had been 60 minutes.

So late FP usage hurts those who would have entered a standby line if it had been shorter but don't when it is longer and the longer was caused by late FP usage.

This assumes it is at all likely that enough late FP users exist to slow down a standby line by 15 minutes (from 45 to 60 minutes) at particular time of day (4PM). It is possible but I think in practice a highly exaggerated and unlikely situation.

That was all Doconeill's point and if anyone wants to discuss it for fun I will but I am not interested in a protracted debate to prove this point. And I am especially not interested in a moral debate over this. So take it for what its worth!

My opinion expressed earlier in this thread is that the way Disney parks have evolved since I was a kid and, to some degree, since FP first was implemented about 10 years ago - makes a FP window too short. Especially when you do not get to choose your own FP window. The way dining reservations and shows - each with fixed times - have evolved (plus all the awesome impromptu entertainment things that happen at Disney parks) can make it tough to fit your FP into a one-hour window - which was not necessarily the window you wanted but had to take because that was the window when they issued the FP.

So make the window bigger (at least two hours but three would be better) or, if the one-hour window must be maintained, then allow guests to choose their own window when they get the FP. So they can have more flexibility to get a window that does not interfere with other fixed time activities thay have planned such as reserved meals or shows.

 

[TigerlilyAJ]

Doconeill's basic point - which I agree with - mostly - is that a queue is a zero sum game. There are only so many people who can ride a ride in a day.

This idea of the zero-sum game is the most important one I wish people would get. I've read a number of posts with people saying they would be sad to see the window enforced because then they wouldn't get the happy experience of gifting expired ones to strangers. They don't seem to get that the unexpected gift that helps one person hurts another, and that's what annoyed me. I also was focused on the FP line, but you (and Doconeill, I assume) are right to note that the standby lines are affected as well.

 

[HydroGuy]

This idea of the zero-sum game is the most important one I wish people would get. I've read a number of posts with people saying they would be sad to see the window enforced because then they wouldn't get the happy experience of gifting expired ones to strangers. They don't seem to get that the unexpected gift that helps one person hurts another, and that's what annoyed me. I also was focused on the FP line, but you (and Doconeill, I assume) are right to note that the standby lines are affected as well.

Yes, there will be an impact too on FP availability as some who would get a FP and use it late will not get a FP because they cannot make the window. But I doubt it will be that big of an issue because lots of folks do not use FPs late because they do not know.

 

[BNM]

The last part of HydroGuy's statement goes to the crux of the issue. Maybe more people were using them late, maybe not. Maybe this presented some sort of problem in line flow, maybe not. There are many opinions on this but no one has provided any convincing evidence that late FP use caused any problem.

However, AT WDW, they are removing some flexibility in FP use. I believe ( and no I have no concrete evidence, just logic) that this is a precursor to GIVING BACK flexibility, for a price. Wow, you wish you could get a FP for the time you want? That won't conflict With your ADR or your nap? You wish you didn't have to physically collect your FP? That you can do it all on your phone? Now you can! If you want to pay. And it's not gonna be cheap.

I'm not fussed about this coming to DLR. it's just a different situation. The fact that it's less of a once-in-a-lifetime destination, the high proportion of local and repeat visitors, the minor importance of ADRs......I just don't see xpass or whatever generating a lot of interest here.

 

[Rhonna]

HydroGuy - Thanks for the review. I usually want the info. but the threads on the WDW board get LONG and usually heated. I need the reader's digest condensed version.

Doesn't sound like it would be a huge difference for the wait times. But I agree with you, I have always hated the idea of having to plan times for EVERYTHING. Hopefully it won't go that way.