Fantasyland & Avatar "blown" / compared to WWOHP (Really)? + Star Wars Land thoughts

[lockedoutlogic]

Theory: Cameron clearly wants Avatar to be his legacy in the same way that the Star Wars universe is for George Lucas. It is not unreasonable to think that when he's done making his 4 films that he'll want to sell the property to Disney to farm it further.

It's just movies...
There's no "franchise" and where there's no franchise...there's no MERCHANDISE.

Has anyone visited the "Magical World of Matrix"?

No? Do you know why?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If you follow the pattern from the 7DMT, Avatarland should open sometime in 2025

Seriously...

Two years to dig some tunnels and build a kiddie coaster...
That's all mine train is...
A "nice" kiddie coaster...but still

(To be clear: I expected a kiddie coaster...but was still shocked the construction took that long for the product....obviously that was an intentional draw out, which is becoming their disgusting m.o. )

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I would really like to know the motivation behind having the construction at Fantasyland take so long. I can only surmise that the drawn-out process was deliberate since we have seen Universal go from concept to gate-revenue pretty quickly on big projects. If the goal was to build excitement then for me it really failed. Seeing the walls up for so long just made me question their planning, commitment and competence. I never really bought their excuse that it was the attention to detail that was taking all the time. Most of that can be solved by hiring more people to work on it.

It's to keep pummeling their repeat customers with "coming soons" to keep the rooms filled (apparently that is not as easy a task as it used to be...I just recent started looking at wdw Hotel prices to see if there is a trend... And there is. The $245 room at Caribbean might be a hint).

They don't want to lay enough capital to have a slate or coming soons with aggressive timelines like Comcast has taken too....so they use leeches on what they do build (all fairly quick buck oriented) to draw those out over large timeframes.

If they started doubt ambition timeframes... Universal would ceasefire and draw back a little... Disney is yielding the strategy to them and sucking credit out of their history and property size.

Construction is different... When they used to bring in Turner or Hill to build a
New project... There were early completion bonuses and stiff delay penalties...incentive laiden construction that resulted in speed. And Disney was on top of them for quality control.

That's because they wanted it open to sell tickets and rooms based off it... The old way.

Think that goes now? Where it's about drawing maximum "coming soon" traffic and exposure?

Not your fathers Disney... Sure as hell not your grandfathers.

 

[Spacedog1975]

It's just movies... There's no "franchise" and where there's no franchise...there's no MERCHANDISE. Has anyone visited the "Magical World of Matrix"? No? Do you know why?

Perhaps because Matrix is a closed trilogy (or quad) which is solidly R rated and doesn't have the visual splendor that Avatar offers?

Merchandizing tends to happen concurrently with releases and rereleases. That's why you see more Star Wars toys during a movie or TV cycle (which right now is pretty ever present) and you tend to see matching merchandise to whatever film Disney is releasing in theaters and on home video.

 

[Spacedog1975]

You do realize that there is a huge distinction between "I didn't like Avatar" (or James Cameron) and "the movie that made the most unadjusted $$$ ever is an unmitigated failure to launch a franchise"

 

[Andrew015]

Has anyone visited the "Magical World of Matrix"?

Those who have recently visited Downtown Disney may argue that they have

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You do realize that there is a huge distinction between "I didn't like Avatar" (or James Cameron) and "the movie that made the most unadjusted $$$ ever is an unmitigated failure to launch a franchise"

Is that to me?

I do understand (though its my first time on the website and first time I ever considered what goes into themepark production)

That is not what I'm saying. I neither really like nor dislike avatar...but what I saw was a huge ticket take by a movie in a vacuum that produced no product and has had a hard time getting sequels greenlit.

It's been 6 years and nobody said a word and nobody is interested in getting more material...

A bad ninja turtle movie had a sequel greenlit two days after it opened.

Disney is putting frozen where it doesn't belong to try and scrape a little out of it.

The question is... Why is Hollywood completely predictable...except - the defenders say - regarding avatar?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Perhaps because Matrix is a closed trilogy (or quad) which is solidly R rated and doesn't have the visual splendor that Avatar offers?

Merchandizing tends to happen concurrently with releases and rereleases. That's why you see more Star Wars toys during a movie or TV cycle (which right now is pretty ever present) and you tend to see matching merchandise to whatever film Disney is releasing in theaters and on home video.

Star Wars has been the top licensed franchise property worldwide for 11 of the last 12 years...

Encompassing a span that includes the aftermath of 2 terrible movies, a mediocre at best one, and George repackaging and reselling the same merchandise tastelessly in volume...

I submit to all those that say somehow avatar is comparable...or that Harry potter has passed Star Wars...
That respectfully, you're not looking from the right angle.

Certainly not what analysts and Disney's board looks at.

 

[Spacedog1975]

Who do you think needs to green light an Avatar sequel? This is James Cameron's baby and he can fund it completely himself if he chose.

As it stands, they are targeting a November 2016 release date for the second Avatar film. Seems about perfectly times for a certain theme park to expand.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Those who have recently visited Downtown Disney may argue that they have

Awesome

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Who do you think needs to green light an Avatar sequel? This is James Cameron's baby and he can find it completely himself if he chose.

As it stands, they are targeting a November 2016 release date for the second Avatar film. Seems about perfectly times for a certain theme park to expand.

Completely wrong...

Cameron's money is HIS... As in he doesn't run a corporation like Lucasfilm or dreamworks with guaranteed revenue streams.

And... Since its HIS money...he would spend it begrudgingly. A themepark investment makes way more sense from a longevity standpoint than completely self produced sequels. Especially attaching a huge, conglomerate competitor to his current production deals to it.

Fox is the distributor of the films...and in order for a guy - even as powerful as him... To produce and release movies, he needs major financial and corporate assistance.

I've also read several article writeups in entertainment (what I do on Sundays when everyone is watching football...ok...kidding) about snags and tension with fox regarding avatar.
I believe that Cameron wanted carte Blanche and free reign (with others money...making it "free") to unleash his vision of Ferngully...I mean..."pandora" on the world
...and here we sit.

And in that timeframe... Multiple reboots of superman, Spider-Man, hulk, batman, 90210, and Dallas hath doth passed...

We'll probably see "Greys Anatomy: the Musical" first
...oh wait...I think we already did.

I'm no expert...but it doesn't take that much insight to spot something that doesn't equate.

 

[ahoyle]

Completely wrong...

Cameron's money is HIS... As in he doesn't run a corporation like Lucasfilm or dreamworks with guaranteed revenue streams.

And... Since its HIS money...he would spend it begrudgingly. A themepark investment makes way more sense from a longevity standpoint than completely self produced sequels. Especially attaching a huge, conglomerate competitor to his current production deals to it.

Fox is the distributor of the films...and in order for a guy - even as powerful as him... To produce and release movies, he needs major financial and corporate assistance.

I've also read several article writeups in entertainment (what I do on Sundays when everyone is watching football...ok...kidding) about snags and tension with fox regarding avatar.
I believe that Cameron wanted carte Blanche and free reign (with others money...making it "free") to unleash his vision of Ferngully...I mean..."pandora" on the world
...and here we sit.

And in that timeframe... Multiple reboots of superman, Spider-Man, hulk, batman, 90210, and Dallas hath doth passed...

We'll probably see "Greys Anatomy: the Musical" first
...oh wait...I think we already did.

I'm no expert...but it doesn't take that much insight to spot something that doesn't equate.

Your completely off in your chacterization that a sequel to avatar had problems being greenlit. Most of the delay has been on Cameron's end, being a perfectionist and getting sidetracked with his submersible projects. But lets all remember, the last time a successful Cameron film took 7 years for the sequel, it was a modest success called Terminator 2. Cameron isn't having problems bankrolling a film thats the sequel to the biggest movie ever. Especially when its not the first film he's made thats been the biggest movie ever.

Also, what kind of theme park investment would he be making? Get a percent of the gate of Animal Kingdom? Stock Options? With Disney's model the thought of someone investing and paying for their property to be in the park with some promise of future earnings or anything is absurd. I can't even wrap my head around the difficulties of something like that. Disney signed a long term licensing deal to build and use the IP of Avatar, plain and simple.

 

[Little c Travel]

I've never seen Avatar. I doubt I ever will. I don't really care to watch the Smurfs meets Dances with Wolves.

That said, I'm very excited about this expansion, I think they are going to do a visually stunning job with the land and the rides. I just wish Disney could build stuff faster.

 

[clsteve]

Well, if I was a betting man, I would say the odds are pretty darn high that there will be at least one adorably cute and cuddly talking space animal that plays a big role in the next Avatar film.

Gotta have something in those gift shops.....

How Cameron plays all of this up in the films , merchandise-wise - now that he's also going to be a big theme park mogul - might be the most interesting thing to watch in this whole exercise

 

[twebber55]

I think you're kidding yourself.

The only way I buy that Disney was desperate for boy property and went to beg Cameron ended on 10/28/12 when nothing had been done at animal kingdom.

Come on, now...avatar sold a bunch of tickets...then DIED!!!

Gone, no product, no staying power.
Why on earth would a company that ONLY cares about merchandise and staying power approach Cameron with their checkbook? Why?

That doesn't make sense. Not went you bought one of the worlds biggest merchandising franchises.

They aren't interested in spending more on animal kingdom than they do... That much is clear. They built Everest, it didnt work, they didnt get a bump...and then they sat. So there's something else between the bankers here.

This is what I'm talking about....these things have to "pass the common sense test".

There is a financial arrangement here.

wrong avatar sold a bunch of tickets then sold the most dvd blue rays ever but im sure you have a reason why that happened
3 new movies plus books plus cirque soleil themed to avatar
what will be you r excuse when the next movie does a billion plus
harry potter is no where to be found in stores for merchandise I think it did ok

once again the only place I ve read people actually think Cameron will use his own money is this board...most insiders on other boards have said no chance to that

there so many things wrong with your statement...first EE grew the park over a million people so it was a big winner
avatar will double that
no one is kidding themselves

 

[twebber55]

Is that to me?

I do understand (though its my first time on the website and first time I ever considered what goes into themepark production)

That is not what I'm saying. I neither really like nor dislike avatar...but what I saw was a huge ticket take by a movie in a vacuum that produced no product and has had a hard time getting sequels greenlit.

It's been 6 years and nobody said a word and nobody is interested in getting more material...

A bad ninja turtle movie had a sequel greenlit two days after it opened.

Disney is putting frozen where it doesn't belong to try and scrape a little out of it.

The question is... Why is Hollywood completely predictable...except - the defenders say - regarding avatar?

haha do you really believe this post or are you just joking around?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

haha do you really believe this post or are you just joking around?

Avatar = no staying power.

Facts please...and box office receipts in a hyper inflated world does not count.

I mean...do you work at animal kingdom or something? Cause the defense of this "property" is a little over the edge isn't it?
Or is this about faith in the "magic of dreams"?

I'm not dooming the avatar area...it may be great. But I'm not gonna give it the same consideration as other ip because it in no way deserves it in any form.

Remember titanic shattered box office records...and then was forgotten to the land of TNT reruns. I know not the same genre...but box office isn't the sole measuring stick of a franchise.

But...it still makes no sense that Disney would... Again...pay Cameron for his personal obsession. Because its HIS...obsession...nobody else's.

That is not inline with any of Disney's goals...UNLESS...the details are not the standard arrangement.

Remember...they HATED building for Lucas and not having sole creative control. They can't stand it. In fact, they couldn't stand keeping out of two hotels owned by tischman...full reverse course after that. They couldn't tolerate the estate of a.a. Milne...hijacked that. Couldn't stand jim hensons people...bought that.

They only like to yield control when it involves restaurants and stores and they can schlep off the cheap labor on someone else.

Or is that pattern not there?

I don't know what the deal/concessions are...but they have to be there.

If Disney is straight up paying for this...it's their worst buy since go.com...
Because this should be priced as a discount.

 

[twebber55]

Avatar = no staying power.

Facts please...and box office receipts in a hyper inflated world does not count.

I mean...do you work at animal kingdom or something? Cause the defense of this "property" is a little over the edge isn't it?
Or is this about faith in the "magic of dreams"?

I'm not dooming the avatar area...it may be great. But I'm not gonna give it the same consideration as other ip because it in no way deserves it in any form.

Remember titanic shattered box office records...and then was forgotten to the land of TNT reruns. I know not the same genre...but box office isn't the sole measuring stick of a franchise.

But...it still makes no sense that Disney would... Again...pay Cameron for his personal obsession. Because its HIS...obsession...nobody else's.

That is not inline with any of Disney's goals...UNLESS...the details are not the standard arrangement.

Remember...they HATED building for Lucas and not having sole creative control. They can't stand it. In fact, they couldn't stand keeping out of two hotels owned by tischman...full reverse course after that. They couldn't tolerate the estate of a.a. Milne...hijacked that. Couldn't stand jim hensons people...bought that.

They only like to yield control when it involves restaurants and stores and they can schlep off the cheap labor on someone else.

Or is that pattern not there?

I don't know what the deal/concessions are...but they have to be there.

If Disney is straight up paying for this...it's their worst buy since go.com...
Because this should be priced as a discount.

I cant give anymore facts than what we ve already given this topic
top gross of all time
take out inflation its number 2
top blue ray dvd seller of all time (2 million more than avengers)
a huge surge in tourist visits to huang shun mountains
new cirque soleil show themed to avatar coming out in 2015/2016
plus the 53,000,000 likes on facebook with 250000 talking about it on facebook as we speak...compare that to other top franchises and its very comparable
we live in a world of Netflix and red box and no movie pre 21st century had to worry about it so to do what it did in the box office means something

if we re taking merch sales then Pooh, hello kitty, and WWE would make great theme park adaptions

it s a movie about living in harmony with nature and protecting the environment so its not so much kiddie in terms of meaning therefore kids stuff wouldn't sell like star wars or marvel but that doesn't mean it wont be successful...harry potter stuff doesn't sell in stores either yet its printing money for universal

I don't work at animal kingdom nor did I see avatar in the movie theaters im just a teacher and a head football coach... I just think this could have great theme park possibilities when finished


http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2233/cxrg.jpg

I actually agree with a lot of what you say in terms of Disney's cheapness
just majorly disagree with you on avatar
to each his own, I just see this putting about 2 million more people a year in animal kingdom ( along with the other expansions going on there like rivers of light)

 

[twebber55]

I've never seen Avatar. I doubt I ever will. I don't really care to watch the Smurfs meets Dances with Wolves.

That said, I'm very excited about this expansion, I think they are going to do a visually stunning job with the land and the rides. I just wish Disney could build stuff faster.

Disney's pace of construction is ridiculous...I agree
7DMT took almost as long as the entire construction for Diagon Alley

 

[wallrock]

I cant give anymore facts than what we ve already given this topic
top gross of all time
take out inflation its number 2
top blue ray dvd seller of all time (2 million more than avengers)
a huge surge in tourist visits to huang shun mountains
new cirque soleil show themed to avatar coming out in 2015/2016
plus the 53,000,000 likes on facebook with 250000 talking about it on facebook as we speak...compare that to other top franchises and its very comparable
we live in a world of Netflix and red box and no movie pre 21st century had to worry about it so to do what it did in the box office means something

if we re taking merch sales then Pooh, hello kitty, and WWE would make great theme park adaptions

it s a movie about living in harmony with nature and protecting the environment so its not so much kiddie in terms of meaning therefore kids stuff wouldn't sell like star wars or marvel but that doesn't mean it wont be successful...harry potter stuff doesn't sell in stores either yet its printing money for universal

I don't work at animal kingdom nor did I see avatar in the movie theaters im just a teacher and a head football coach... I just think this could have great theme park possibilities when finished


http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/2233/cxrg.jpg

I actually agree with a lot of what you say in terms of Disney's cheapness
just majorly disagree with you on avatar
to each his own, I just see this putting about 2 million more people a year in animal kingdom ( along with the other expansions going on there like rivers of light)

Star Wars franchise: 27 billion in total sales with around 17 of that associated with merchandise (not adjusted for inflation).

Harry Potter franchise: 21 billion on total sales with about 7 billion in merchandise sales thus far. No telling what the end result will be with the goings on at Universal.

The Walt Disney company: 37 billion in merchandising sales just in 2011. I've purposely left off the last couple of years to keep a distinction between legacy Disney and the acquisition of LucasArts.

Avatar: 2.8 billion in ticket sales with 356 million in DVD/Blu-ray sales.

I personally liked Avatar, but the inflated cost of an IMAX/3D ticket helped propel the film into the stratosphere. Not that that's a bad thing. In fact, more power to Fox and Cameron. However not every film made has the benefit of those inflated costs. Personally I prefer to look at the total number of tickets sold to determine the true popularity of a film.

That said, there's no way I'd even consider Avatar close in comparison to the other two in terms of staying power and the ability to make a theme park money. So why would Disney seek out a single film with, at best, three more films coming down the line? Why not tap into their own material that has so much more merchandising potential? There is no logic in this approach other than Fox and Cameron did something financially related for Disney.