Extra Insight - AP courses Senior Year

[daisax]

Seriously, DH and I did not save for our children's college. We didn't do things the right way all the time. I get that now. If I could I would pay for her, but that is not going to happen. Life isn't always fair, and I guess we dealt our kids a bad hand for college.

Unless you're saving 20% of your gross (!) income for retirement, you can't afford to be saving to send your kids to college, so you're better off ensuring that you won't be a burden to them in their middle age than you are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on college on them now.

If you're comfortable when they're beginning their post-college lives, you can help pay off loans/help give them money towards a downpayment for a home, etc.

College prices have gone up several hundred percent since most of us of an age to have college aged children went to college. Incomes have not gone up accordingly, and yet middle class people still have the impression that they should be able to underwrite their children's college education, and that they're failures if they can't. And many are risking the entire family's long-term financial stability (mortgages, pulling money out of 401Ks, etc) to do so.

 

[Tinker'n'Fun]

I wouldn't have her take them for the credit she might gain in college; but my reasoning would be to take them to get INto college. Something to consider-do the options for the courses taken off campus at the university show up as options in the listing of available classes taught at the high school? Top colleges want the kids to take the highest level of courses taught at their respective schools. If she is taking everything the high school offers she wouldn't particularly be hindered by not have the AP designation. If the school offers that and she opts for a lower level, that hurts.

If you are interested the credits the AP can provide, know you don't have to take the course to take the exam. Anyone can take an AP exam in any course they choose, whether they took an AP class or not. She could opt for honors english at the school, and take the AP exam in May at the public high school.

Okay I understand what you are saying. I have her course selection here and the AP course states:

English 264/245 - NUStep English (049) ******* University Major American Writers I & II (Prerequisite:...... she meets them all) Six total credit hours from ******* University are eaned up on successful completeion of this full-year course. It then explains what is taught and then it states this. The student will be required to purchased required text/reading materials. A course fee of $450.00 will be incurred.

I looked up the college, it is accredited, but I am not sure what else to look for. I do know that it is considered a very good college in our area, but is NOT a state college.

 

[allison443]

Because of our states requirements the math requirements were pretty strict. In able to get to AP calculus in her HS, she would have had to taken 9th. grade regents in 8th. grade. Since this is not the case and she does not want to go to summer school, the most she can advance to is pre-cal. I guess this would be a school requirement more than a state thing.

You must be in New York!!

 

[Tinker'n'Fun]

Please keep posting information and anything that will help. I really appreciate it. I have to for a bit, but I am very grateful for any and all the help I get here. Diane.

 

[sbell111]

Well, I think she should take as many A/P classes as she can comfortably take. The rigor of her courses, whether or not her college offers credit for them, will help in the college acceptance process.

It sounds to me like you feel that since you have agreed you will not help her pay for college, that you should not be helping her pay for college-credit courses, not whether her schedule seems too difficult.

That being the case I think you should still try to find a way to come up with the money for her to take the A/P courses. (Does the course fee include the A/P test fee?) Enough A/P credits can shave an entire semester, even an entire year off her college time, and although you are not going to pay for her schooling, there are still lots of expenses associated with her being in school. The sooner she gets out there and gets a job, the less it will cost you.

Agreed, plus I feel that the OP should revisit helping to pay for college.

 

[EthansMom]

Honestly, pretty much all of those AP courses would translate into credits for General Education classes at the college/university level (if DD got 4/5 on the test... which is often another expense).

Has your DD taken enough foreign language classes for her HS graduation and college entrance requirements? If so, then AP Foreign Language won't necessarily gain her anything.

Personally, I'd go for AP English, which will help for college requirements (if DD does well on the test). And then maybe pick one more AP course that is in DD's interest.

AP courses can have a very heavy load. IMO, it's more important that students take a few AP classes (esp. in areas that interest them and apply towards their college degree) and do well in all of their classes than having the student overload on every available AP class.

Don't forget there will be a lot of extracurricular activities (formal dances, visits to colleges, college applications, hanging with friends) that will be going on during that Senior Year also!

 

[Green Tea]

Okay I understand what you are saying. I have her course selection here and the AP course states:

English 264/245 - NUStep English (049) ******* University Major American Writers I & II (Prerequisite:...... she meets them all) Six total credit hours from ******* University are eaned up on successful completeion of this full-year course. It then explains what is taught and then it states this. The student will be required to purchased required text/reading materials. A course fee of $450.00 will be incurred.

I looked up the college, it is accredited, but I am not sure what else to look for. I do know that it is considered a very good college in our area, but is NOT a state college.

Since she isn't opting out of the highest level course her high school offers, it isn't going to be that detrimental to admissions. One thing you could think about would be seeing if a community college offers a freshman course she could take as a high school student. Either after the regular school day, at night or maybe as her first or last period of the day. I am not sure how the price would compare to the $450. That isn't a bad price for 6 hours, but it maybe isn't necessary for college acceptance, unless she is looking at Stanford, Duke, Princeton, etc.

 

[Tickla]

You have to pay for your child to take AP courses? My son (17) is a senior now & has been taking AP classes since the begining of his junior year--when he graduates in May of this year he will have enough credits to be a college freshman for 1 semester, then he will technically be a sophomore. We have not had to pay ANY $ for any of these courses. We occasionally get a bill from one of the colleges he's taking the classes through, but we just have to turn it in the the H.S. office & it's taken care of. We have saved so much money this way--I thought all schools did this for free

 

[mamacatnv]

My DS is a college Freshman at a state Univ. We helped a little, he borrowed a little and he scholarshipped a little. Next year he will be working as a resident aide in a dorm in exchange he receives room and board (a 10K value). I think in regards to college that where there is a will there is a way, it may often involve student debt but it is doable.

What IMO is more important is to know whether or not the long term career goals are worth the cost of the education.
Example (I saw this just last week on the Today show so don't slam me) A student attends an Ivy League school, racks up $150K in student debt only to obtain a degree in English to teach High School. The student debt is not worth the future earning potential. That particular student would have been better off at a State Univ. or not so spendy private college.
My DS wants to be a Physical Therapist - he will need to leave the area for Grad school. We opted for the State Univ. to control his under grad costs knowing that Grad school is where he is going to need to spend the big bucks.

I also do not think it is a parents responsibility to provide a college education. I think it is great if a parent can and hey, if I could I would. However, I can't and I don't beat myself up over it. Instead we work together to pull it off because we want to not because we have to.

As for AP......

My opinion of AP is honestly not a very high one and given the costs involved on top of the hefty tuition you are paying, not something I would consider. More and more colleges are getting away from AP and so while the argument that the "rigor" of the course is good practice for college may be valid, plenty of kids hit college without a huge AP background and do just fine.

I also think that while High School is academic it is also an "experience" one that many look back to for the rest of their lives and I think that high school needs to be more than just academic.

OP I totally understand your trepidation at adding the cost of the AP classes to the already high cost of the Senior Year (I recently added up my DS's Sr. year expenses for a friend and now realize why I am so poor! ) Ouch!

You are already paying a hefty tuition for what I am assuming are highly academic classes. IMO leave it at that

 

[mamacatnv]

You have to pay for your child to take AP courses? My son (17) is a senior now & has been taking AP classes since the begining of his junior year--when he graduates in May of this year he will have enough credits to be a college freshman for 1 semester, then he will technically be a sophomore. We have not had to pay ANY $ for any of these courses. We occasionally get a bill from one of the colleges he's taking the classes through, but we just have to turn it in the the H.S. office & it's taken care of. We have saved so much money this way--I thought all schools did this for free

Nope - My DS took an AP Chem. class where the lab was at the local Univ. We had to pay $275 for the lab portion of the class plus the $85 for the test. Our school district mandates that all kids must take the tests but they do not pay for them (unless one requests financial aide thru the school and thru College Board)

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Grants, Scholarships, loans, and prayers... Seriously, DH and I did not save for our children's college. We didn't do things the right way all the time. I get that now. If I could I would pay for her, but that is not going to happen. Life isn't always fair, and I guess we dealt our kids a bad hand for college. If they can only afford Community College, then I guess it's what we will have to do. I wish I had thought this through when they were young, but I didn't. Money is pretty tight for us and always has been. And yes, before I get slammed from other poster (not you personally I just know it's about to happen) I have taken my kids to Disney even though I didn't put money in an account for their college.

Um, I am not slamming you. I was asking a serious question. We did not save either.

My dd is going to college in the fall and has none of those. We applied however you have to hit that SAT number.

Is she a Merit Scholar? How did she do on the PSAT test?

All this stuff factors in for getting scholarships. I encourage you to look at the colleges, and see what the requirements are now.

 

[MrsPete]

Background - DD goes to a Catholic HS, so I pay tuition. It was our agreement with her to pay for HS and she would pay for college.

So you made this agreement withher when she was starting high school? At age 14 you expected her to understand what it meant to promise to pay for college?

Back to the subject:

Does she anticipate attending a highly competative college, or an average school? If she's going for a top-top school, where admission is difficult to obtain, then she needs the AP courses to assure that she's a viable candidate. Without them, she won't have a real chance of admission. On the other hand, if she's likely to attend an average college, then she might be better off taking a couple courses at the community college during her senior year of high school.

When you take an AP course, you MIGHT pass the test (even really strong students don't always pass them) and the college you end up choosing MIGHT accept those credits.
When you take a community college course (assuming you pass), you DEFINITELY have earned a credit. Of course, you should choose wisely to make sure that the eventual college will accept the transfer credits.

Finally, I've never heard of a high school charging for AP classes. Perhaps the fee is to pay for the test, which is about $65?

 

[Christine]

I have some not-so-cohesive-sounding advice.

1. Realistically take a HARD look at where you daughter can attend college. The school you said she wants to attend is very expensive. Will you or she even be able to do this? Any aid your daughter gets will be based on YOUR financial picture. You wouldn't believe what FAFSA said I could afford for my daughter's tuition. What a joke. Really look at where your daughter *can* go and look around the websites and see what the schools are looking for.

2. As another poster stated, weigh the benefits of huge student loans against the profession your daughter will choose. $150K worth of debt is probably manageable for a lawyer or doctor. Not so much for a teacher or a nurse.

3. Don't overload on AP courses. Choose two. Make sure she does exceedingly well in the AP courses she chooses. While colleges do look at the rigor of courses, many of us mom's of seniors are finding out today that many admissions officers, overburdened and with the cream of the crop out there applying, are zipping through applications and looking at the bottom line GPA and the test scores. Try to find a careful balance between rigor of courses and the best GPA. I'd rather see her get in A in honors than a B in an AP and so would the admissions officers from what I'm hearing. If she can't score a 4 or 5 on the AP exam, she will not get credit for those courses.

4. Lastly, and this varies by state and institution, many of my daughter's friends with very good GPAs are getting shut out of schools because the competition is so fierce. A lot also depends on the major. My daughter's friend, who is in an IB program and is graded on a 5.0 scale (weighted), was turned down by the University of Maryland's International Business Degree program. He has a 3.7 GPA, is president of is class, member of the school swim team, active in Model UN and a host of other activites. Very good PSATs and SATs. But he wasn't good enough. He pushed himself so hard with heavy courses. I honestly don't know what it takes.

 

[Christine]

Finally, I've never heard of a high school charging for AP classes. Perhaps the fee is to pay for the test, which is about $65?

This would not be unheard of for a private school. Many of them don't budget for AP when determining the cost to run the school for the rest of the attendees. Since not everyone can take AP, some schools choose not to spread that cost among all the students.

My DD's private school does not charge for them. We only pay for the exam.

 

[smartestnumber5]

So you made this agreement withher when she was starting high school? At age 14 you expected her to understand what it meant to promise to pay for college?

I find myself at this too. How could a 13/14 year old be expected to make a decision about how best to invest over $30,000 in her education?

Also I can't believe this school charges $8,000 a year tuition and then charges for AP courses on top of that . I went to a mediocre public high school where 25% of each class year dropped out before graduation and only 30% or so of those who graduated went to a 4 year college. Still, our AP courses were free.


But going from where things are with the OP, I'm going to differ with a lot of the posters here. This is how I see things. If you make enough income to afford paying $8000 a year for high school, then my guess is that when your DD fills out the FAFSA the EFC will be substantial. Let's suppose it's $12,000 a year. This means that unless your DD wins substantial merit scholarships, that $12,000 bill will be all of her responsibility if she goes to a 4 year college/university. If she wants to be competitive for these types of scholarships (or for competitive colleges/universities), then she needs to take a very challenging high school curriculum and should consider taking the highest level courses offered (which I assume are the courses the counselor is recommending).

Realistically, what are her chances of winning an extremely lucrative merit scholarship? What kinds of grades/SAT scores, class rank, curriculum does she have? One of the colleges I applied to--The College of New Jersey...it may have since changed it's name--offered a full ride scholarship. Generally you had to have SATs in the 1350 or 1400 and up range (this is back when there were only 2 SAT sections--verbal and math) and be at the very top of your class in terms of rank and take really competitive classes. I'm not sure if they still have such scholarships, but she should look into those types of things if she has the SATs/grades etc to possibly get one.

Okay, but what if she is not likely to be eligible for those types of scholarships? Well if she's not able to do that, then at pretty much any 4 year college/university she's going to need to pay that $12,000. As far as I know, there are pretty low limits on the amount of federal student loans a college student--especially a freshman--can take out. I'm not positive that a freshman can get that much money in federal student loans. She may have to take out a personal loan for some of that money at extremely unfavorable interest rates. Perhaps she could work while going to school. How much can she realistically plan to make? Will she have living expenses to pay as well?

It seems very unwise to me for an 18 year old to take on such a financial burden--especially if non-student loans are involved. I would think, if you are not able/willing to help your daughter financially AND she is not able to win any substantial scholarships, that community college for the first two years of college is the only reasonable option. If that is the case, then I am not sure how important the AP classes will be. It may still save a bit of money for her to knock out some Gen Ed requirements through AP classes rather than paying for them at a community college--but community colleges are generally pretty inexpensive (compared to many 4 year colleges/universities at least); so I don't think it will save a ton of money. And in terms of taking a challenging curriculum, generally admission to a community college will not be extremely competitive. And, my guess is that when it comes to transfer from a community college to a 4 year institution, it is the work one did at the college, not one's work from high school, that will matter most in terms of admissions.

So, to sum up, I think it all really depends on which path she is likely to take in the near future.


A bit off topic--what are the world religion, dance, and entrepreneur classes? Are they AP type classes? I don't remember them existing when I was in high school. Or are they university classes? Why do they cost extra money?

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Yep. If your dd is going to end up at a Community College, then taking rigorous AP's classes might not be the best idea.

I will say my dd took all AP, except for Math, which was her downfall for the SAT test's. She enjoyed the AP's.

However we did not have to pay extra, except for the test.

 

[waltsgirl]

Our son took AP courses and we didn't pay for anything but the AP test. He was able to get 33 credits. He did get a 4/5 on every test he took so they all counted.

I don't know the rules for your school but our son did not take AP English his senior year yet opted to take the test and scored a 4 and was able to get the credits at college. That may be something to think about but would be based on your daughter's ability I don't know what that is.

 

[prncssmel]

Well, I think she should take as many A/P classes as she can comfortably take. The rigor of her courses, whether or not her college offers credit for them, will help in the college acceptance process.

It sounds to me like you feel that since you have agreed you will not help her pay for college, that you should not be helping her pay for college-credit courses, not whether her schedule seems too difficult.

That being the case I think you should still try to find a way to come up with the money for her to take the A/P courses. (Does the course fee include the A/P test fee?) Enough A/P credits can shave an entire semester, even an entire year off her college time, and although you are not going to pay for her schooling, there are still lots of expenses associated with her being in school. The sooner she gets out there and gets a job, the less it will cost you.

I agree. I shaved a 1.5 years off college through AP classes. Comparing the price of those classes to college tuition, I see that financially she will come out ahead. I graduated from college only 8 years ago, so while some schools are accepting less AP credit, many are still accepting it. My sister is in college currently, and all of her AP credit was accepted.

I also think that the rigor of AP classes is extremely helpful for college. I had friends who didn't pass some AP exams and then took the freshman level course in college - they all said the college course was easier than the AP course. I am very glad I had that hard of a schedule in high school; I was much more prepared for higher level college courses.

One thing you could think about would be seeing if a community college offers a freshman course she could take as a high school student. Either after the regular school day, at night or maybe as her first or last period of the day. I am not sure how the price would compare to the $450. That isn't a bad price for 6 hours, but it maybe isn't necessary for college acceptance, unless she is looking at Stanford, Duke, Princeton, etc.

The university I attended did not accept concurrent enrollment credit like this, so while you are checking AP credit acceptance, check for this also.

 

[mamacatnv]

If you choose to go the AP route one thing I would want to know is the success rate for the students.
How many are scoring 4's/5's on their AP exams.

My DS's highschool had a dismal 6% pass rate of a 3 or better, our whole district which has 13 high schools has something like a 20% getting a 3 or better. Not all AP courses & curriculum are created equal so before you drop a chunk of cash, know the facts and the likely hood of that money paying off. Also something to consider is you are looking at $400+ for a class, how much is the same class at say a community college? Here, at $50 or so a unit a CC class would be a better choice over these proposed AP classes

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Also to think about, when taking Community Colleges, it has to be "approved" thru a high school program. At least here.

If my dd were to take a class over the summer she would blow her "new student status" and would be considered a "transfer student".

That really bites.