Ex-Minn. governor sues over body scans, pat-downs

[PrincessArlena'sDad]

I hope Jesse is trying to strike the seaches for all, not just for him (and others with hip replacement, etc)

Secondly: the searches are unreasonable. And, flying is a choice, just like driving a car is a choice. Or, walking down the street is a choice. We could all just "choose" to stay in are homes.

The police can not just stop people on the road (whether driving or walking), for no reason, and demand to search their vehicle, and give the drivers and passengers a pat down. Going into an airplane is no different.

As of yet, terroists have not strapped bombs on themselves and ran out into the middle of a highway. Or hijacked cars and sent them crashing down the roads, which would be the only way your analogy would make sense.

Car bombs? These are a major problem in Israel, and it was a car bomb that was used in the first WTC attack. There were also car bomb threats to attack the tunnels in NYC.

Suicide bombers? There has been plenty of those also.

As for what PP said about not trusting the gov't: I'm in complete agreement. We have to take the gov't word that these scanners are safe? Based on what? As if everythng else the gov't said was "safe" was completely harmless...

 

[Brer Chump]

Secondly: the searches are unreasonable. And, flying is a choice, just like driving a car is a choice. Or, walking down the street is a choice. We could all just "choose" to stay in are homes.

The police can not just stop people on the road (whether driving or walking), for no reason, and demand to search their vehicle, and give the drivers and passengers a pat down. Going into an airplane is no different.

Incorrect! The US Supreme Court, along with many Federal District Courts have ruled that airport screening procedures are an exception to the 4th Amendment and are Administrative Searches and are completely Constitutional as long as three criteria are met. The below links will shed more light on this.

Ventura's case will be tossed fairly quick.

http://fourthamendment.com/blog/ind...g_searches_no_longer_con&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=7886

 

[sam_gordon]

Good for Jesse! Whatever his motivation.
Most of these procedures are for show to make it look like increased security.
Most of them are reactionary. as in now you cant bring a printer cartridge.
AFTER the shoe bomber, no more gel shoe inserts....
Whatever the next " event " is, it will be something new and TSA will implement another new rule, but it will be AFTER the fact....

OF COURSE these things are reactionary. Who would have thought about putting bombs in shoes or in printer cartridges until those events happened? So, how do you prevent someone from bringing a weapon on board?

I think common sense profiling could accomplish as much as the tactics they are using now on everybody..

Which is probably fine as long as you aren't the one being profiled. So if you simply LOOK middle eastern should someone take a closer look at you?

I dont fly often so not much impact on me personally.

jmho

Pop

I don't fly much either. But what I have problems with are those who say "these violate my rights!" To me, if these screenings violate your rights, so does walking through a metal detector. So lets do away with ALL security, right?

And before someone brings up the Israeli model, let's remember their BUSIEST airport would rank #22 when compared to airports in the US. Do we want armed soldiers at all our airports?

I'm not convinced profiling is the answer. I'm not convinced what's happening currently is the answer. But I also haven't heard any suggestion that jumps out at me (although goofy4tink has some good ones) as the be all, end all.

 

[pr surfer]

I, for one, want to see this lawsuit pushed through.

I'm still 100% on the opt-outs (or sneaking from the MMW to the WTMD line), even if it means I have to be at the airport a bit earlier now.

 

[romeoc]

So on my next family flight I need to explain to my 10 year old daughter that it is ok for TSA security to touch you 'improperly' because it is National Security, but everyone else is off limits. Great.

 

[pr surfer]

So on my next family flight I need to explain to my 10 year old daughter that it is ok for TSA security to touch you 'improperly' because it is National Security, but everyone else is off limits. Great.

huh?

 

[dudspizza]

I should have never started this thread!

People need to stop over-reacting over this. You are not being groped... do you think the person doing it is enjoying it? They are doing their job, whether it is the right type of security... who knows.....

Honestly, being a Minnesotan, my first thought is JESSE VENTURA IS AN IDIOT! He is....... this has nothing to do with his lawsuit or tv show... he is simply an idiot who is mentally imbalanced!

duds

 

[nytimez]

People need to stop over-reacting over this. You are not being groped...

You're right. It's a Freedom Fondle.

Did you know they don't change rubber gloves between fondlings? Eww!

 

[kaytieeldr]

So on my next family flight I need to explain to my 10 year old daughter that it is ok for TSA security to touch you 'improperly' because it is National Security, but everyone else is off limits. Great.

Well, when I was patted down in December, it was done because I kept setting off the metal detector (no scanner at my gate at BOS). I went through four times before they gave up and determined I needed further examination.

The woman who came to pat me down asked if I wanted a private room, which I declined. No, I'm not an exhibitionist, but this was a simple TSA pat-down. No need for privacy. She put on gloves and instructed me how to stand, and explained everywhere she was going to touch with the front of her hand just before she did. No improper touching - and again, the reason for the pat-down was that something on or in me repeatedly set off the metal detector.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Did you know they don't change rubber gloves between fondlings? Eww!

Really? Still? After the initial publicity? I don't know that/if the TSO who patted me down removed the gloves afterwards (but if she didn't, my clothes were clean), but she put on gloves standing in front of me. So at least I didn't get prior pattee cooties

 

[maxiesmom]

Car bombs? These are a major problem in Israel, and it was a car bomb that was used in the first WTC attack. There were also car bomb threats to attack the tunnels in NYC.

Suicide bombers? There has been plenty of those also.

Not in the USA, and that is all what our government reacts to. What happens here. If not, our airports would have been locked down tight long ago.

 

[goofy4tink]

So on my next family flight I need to explain to my 10 year old daughter that it is ok for TSA security to touch you 'improperly' because it is National Security, but everyone else is off limits. Great.

Seriously???

I should have never started this thread!

People need to stop over-reacting over this. You are not being groped... do you think the person doing it is enjoying it? They are doing their job, whether it is the right type of security... who knows.....

Honestly, being a Minnesotan, my first thought is JESSE VENTURA IS AN IDIOT! He is....... this has nothing to do with his lawsuit or tv show... he is simply an idiot who is mentally imbalanced!

duds

Yeah really...thanks buddy. You owe me big time!!

You're right. It's a Freedom Fondle.

Did you know they don't change rubber gloves between fondlings? Eww!

And again...seriously???


Man, I knew this would happen. You know....nothing is accomplished when people start getting 'dramatic'....I mean, do you think it helps give credence to your argument when you use words like 'grope' or 'freedom fondle'??? Seriously???
And we really do need to stop with the whole 'it's a choice' argument as well. It is not a choice for many people...I don't much care what you say. For the leisure traveler, that's a valid argument. But we don't see many people who have to travel for a living taking that stand do we?? No, didn't think so. I can just imagine what I would say to my dh if he came home and told me he had been let go because he wouldn't fly in order to get to the SW for his job!! Yeah, that's not going to set too well with me.


So...either leave out the 'sensationalism' here, or just don't bother to post. I have no issue with a balanced discussion, but once again, it's getting absurd.

 

[sam_gordon]

Sorry....I meant SINCE 9/11.

I'd just like to point out, before 9/11, when was the last hijacking a US plane? There was one in '94 of a FedEx plane by a disgruntled worker. Before that? Go all the way back to 1978. Since there were no hijackings for over 20 years, I guess we can just rely on those security methods, yes?

SINCE we reinforced cockpit doors. NO terrorist can take control of a plane like that again. That particular threat has been removed.

I know it wasn't you but the poster after you complaining because security is being 'too reactionary' (eliminating printer cartridges, etc). But wouldn't reinforcing cockpit doors also be 'reactionary'?

 

[nytimez]

So...either leave out the 'sensationalism' here, or just don't bother to post. have no issue with a balanced discussion, but once again, it's getting absurd.

It's a sad time when a moderator tells people with an opposing opinion not to bother to post. I posted some very reasonable questions, and you picked the one bit of humor I posted to mock me.

That, by definition, is "sensationalism."

Hello pot, meet kettle.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I'm not a moderator and I don't see any humor in "freedom fondle", plus I wasn't fondled. I know the difference between a fondle and a pat-down, and I underwent the latter before one of my recent flights because I repeatedly set off the metal detector. I was informed before every move what the TSO would be doing.

And, again, your information is outdated. I'll even qualify this by stating in complete seriousness that Massachusetts may be more advanced than the rest of the country - the TSO who patted me down put on a fresh pair of gloves before she touched me.

 

[nytimez]

I'm not a moderator and I don't see any humor in "freedom fondle", plus I wasn't fondled. I know the difference between a fondle and a pat-down, and I underwent the latter before one of my recent flights because I repeatedly set off the metal detector. I was informed before every move what the TSO would be doing.

And, again, your information is outdated. I'll even qualify this by stating in complete seriousness that Massachusetts may be more advanced than the rest of the country - the TSO who patted me down put on a fresh pair of gloves before she touched me.

Wow. I would love it if you could address my other post with as much passion. And that's the one no one who supports this seems willing to touch (no pun intended): Show me the evidence that enhanced security procedures are safe and effective.

I'm sorry, but the science just doesn't back up full-body scanners.

I get very concerned when, say, the TSA claims that the FDA has approved the devices, and then the FDA says it did not such thing. I also get very concerned when the TSA says the U.S. Army Public Health Command routinely checks all of the machines... and then the U.S. Army Public Health Command says it checked only three of them, and wasn't asked to check any more.

I get very concerned when the Journal of Transportation Security publishes a study showing how easy it is to dupe the machines.

And I get very concerned when the government's own inspectors managed to sneak weapons past screeners carrying out "enhanced pat downs" 70 percent of the time.

 

[sam_gordon]

It's a sad time when a moderator tells people with an opposing opinion not to bother to post. I posted some very reasonable questions, and you picked the one bit of humor I posted to mock me.

That, by definition, is "sensationalism."

Hello pot, meet kettle.

I agree you posted some reasonable questions. No problem there. Of course, goofy4tink didn't say anything was wrong with those posts. But I also didn't see the humor in "Freedom Fondle". I think that could be written off as 'you can't read inflection in a post'. So while you might have meant it to be humorous, I didn't read it that way (and neither did goofy4tink apparently).

I also don't think she(?) was mocking you. I think she was using your post as an example of what she doesn't want to see in this thread. But again, since you can't read inflection, I could be wrong.

 

[nytimez]

I agree you posted some reasonable questions. No problem there. Of course, goofy4tink didn't say anything was wrong with those posts. But I also didn't see the humor in "Freedom Fondle". I think that could be written off as 'you can't read inflection in a post'. So while you might have meant it to be humorous, I didn't read it that way (and neither did goofy4tink apparently).

I also don't think she(?) was mocking you. I think she was using your post as an example of what she doesn't want to see in this thread. But again, since you can't read inflection, I could be wrong.

I could be wrong, but I think the fact that there have been multiple reports of screeners not changing their gloves is a legit concern.

As to whether the pun was funny, it's a matter of opinion - but I didn't realize mods were the humor police as well. Is that really a road we want to travel down?

And, again, I question anyone who would attack the pun without addressing the very real questions I have raised -- even in that post with the joke. And I'm sorry, but one person from Massachusetts saying they changed gloves before they patted her down doesn't mean the case is closed on that.

 

[goofy4tink]

It's a sad time when a moderator tells people with an opposing opinion not to bother to post. I posted some very reasonable questions, and you picked the one bit of humor I posted to mock me.

That, by definition, is "sensationalism."

Hello pot, meet kettle.

And again...seriously??? Where did I mock you??? Where did I say that what you posted was a case of 'sensationalism'?? I believe that my response of ..'and again, seriously' was posted to you. I left a fair amount of space empty before responding to the general public.
Everyone seems to feel their particular argument is the right argument...there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room here, no room for a balanced discussion.
I welcome a healthy discussion but when you start with the 'intimate touching' or 'freedom fondle' then it's gone into the realm of 'sensationalism'.

I completely agree that more study needs to be done to ensure the safety of the new scanners. And I agree that there have been a small number of people who have felt that they were searched a bit too 'thoroughly' by TSA people. But..on the other hand, many people have been searched and not felt violated at all. And it's just not fair for someone to come along and say that those people are in the minority or that they don't really count. And no, no one here, on this thread, has said that. But, it seems that everything with some of you is black or white....right or wrong. No room for grey or anything else.

So, either post with some control or don't post. And that goes for BOTH sides of this argument. There is room for control on both sides. This post is not intended to target any one person....and I don't care if some of you seem to feel that I am targeting you. I am NOT. You are all entitled to your opinions..you are not entitled to berate others here simply because they don't agree with you. No one should be made to feel like an idiot if they choose to believe that security measures are fine, or if they have no issue with pat downs or the scanners. On the other hand, no one should be made to feel villified if they choose to question the government or their rules.

Man, this is America...we don't shoot those who disagree with us. All I ask for is civility!!

 

[goofy4tink]

I could be wrong, but I think the fact that there have been multiple reports of screeners not changing their gloves is a legit concern.

As to whether the pun was funny, it's a matter of opinion - but I didn't realize mods were the humor police as well. Is that really a road we want to travel down?

And, again, I question anyone who would attack the pun without addressing the very real questions I have raised -- even in that post with the joke. And I'm sorry, but one person from Massachusetts saying they changed gloves before they patted her down doesn't mean the case is closed on that.

My sense of humor is quite good. Really. But, I truly think that the phrase 'freedom fondle' is somewhat inflammatory. It's not a question of humor or it being a pun. No humor police here.

So..and yes, although there is a space here, I respond to nytimez...I have seen the patdowns, I have been a participant. I truly haven't seen a need for a change of gloves. My skin was never touched....I have no issue with someone's having touched someone else and then running their hands over my clothing. Yes, perhaps a finger was run just under my belt area, but that's all. Nothing to get all upset about.
But, that's me. Obviously, you have a differing opinion. And that's your right. If you feel that way, I don't see any reason you can't ask the TSA employee to change their gloves before patting you down.