Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[garneska]

Good idea on running or hiking some of the trail. I did that for my 50k trail and was so glad I did. I did the major elevation that was in the state park. I was glad I did it.

 

[avondale]

Currently it's schedule for what appears to be a 2 week taper?

Hmm... I'm reading that your longest long run is on Aug. 2 at 20 miles, yes? And the race is the weekend of Aug. 23/24? That looks like a 3-week taper. that seems good. Depending on how much rest you get, you might go shorter on that last 10-mi long run and leading right up to the race.

There's a lot of talk about keeping your legs "fresh" by running soon before the race, but I feel like that applies more to faster paces than you're going to get in your 50k. Any free time you have in the week leading up to the race, get off your feet, and if possible, sleep.

As a side note, I'm very unlikely to do the full 20mi on the 2nd. That's just a really, really, really long run for me. Like 5+ hours in the hottest part of our summer.

Well, this is why I'm a proponent for running for time, not distance. Then you could call this longest long run "5 hours" (or whatever was appropriate leading up to this long run) and at least you'd know how much time you'd be spending.

I do understand this is a lot of time to spend on a run, especially in peak T+D time, but try to get out there for as long as you can (not exceeding this distance, of course). Your actual race will be 50% longer than this. Even expecting to be walking toward the end of the race, you need to build up the time on your feet.

Most ultra-running guidelines I see are to build up to a long run that is about 75% as long in time as you expect your race to be. The time limit for the 50k is 14 hours. Do you have a time goal? If you're estimating even something like 10 hours, then you're looking at a longest long run time of 7.5 hours by that guideline. Of course, planning from the beginning to have a lot of walking time would probably mitigate this to some extent, but not completely, because 30 miles on your feet at once is still 30 miles on your feet at once.

You have to do what you have to do, but the shortness of this longest long run does worry me a bit. You'll need to be really conservative on race day to not burn yourself out early.

near the race trail so I can get out on it for a few sections that weekend in July

Fantastic idea! Having a feel for even part of the trail you'll be racing will give you some confidence. It will make things feel a bit more familiar.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Hmm... I'm reading that your longest long run is on Aug. 2 at 20 miles, yes? And the race is the weekend of Aug. 23/24? That looks like a 3-week taper. that seems good. Depending on how much rest you get, you might go shorter on that last 10-mi long run and leading right up to the race.

Yes. The longest long run of the plan is 20mi. And considering that I’ve never gone over 13.1 for Dopey training and I did 14 yesterday, and am planning on 16mi in a couple of weeks. I’m mental just kind of meh about going 20 (even though I think it would be good for me.

There's a lot of talk about keeping your legs "fresh" by running soon before the race, but I feel like that applies more to faster paces than you're going to get in your 50k. Any free time you have in the week leading up to the race, get off your feet, and if possible, sleep.

I can get behind this sentiment.

Well, this is why I'm a proponent for running for time, not distance. Then you could call this longest long run "5 hours" (or whatever was appropriate leading up to this long run) and at least you'd know how much time you'd be spending.

Right. “5 hours” is basing it on a 15min pace, which is about right when I factor in hills. I can go more like mid/upper 13s on a flat, especially if I’m running with someone, but I know I have a lot of elevation for race day.

I do understand this is a lot of time to spend on a run, especially in peak T+D time, but try to get out there for as long as you can (not exceeding this distance, of course). Your actual race will be 50% longer than this. Even expecting to be walking toward the end of the race, you need to build up the time on your feet.

Most ultra-running guidelines I see are to build up to a long run that is about 75% as long in time as you expect your race to be. The time limit for the 50k is 14 hours. Do you have a time goal? If you're estimating even something like 10 hours, then you're looking at a longest long run time of 7.5 hours by that guideline. Of course, planning from the beginning to have a lot of walking time would probably mitigate this to some extent, but not completely, because 30 miles on your feet at once is still 30 miles on your feet at once.

The time limit is actually 9 hours for the 50k. 14 hours is for the 50 miler on Saturday. My only goal is to finish within the allotted time. And I’ve been mulling asking if they would allow me to start 30min early on the days my nerves are higher. But then it would be dark dark when I started and I’d have to deal with a light and a drop bag (they have 2 locations for these) and stuff.

You have to do what you have to do, but the shortness of this longest long run does worry me a bit. You'll need to be really conservative on race day to not burn yourself out early.

Nooooo! Don’t say you’re nervous! I’m already nervous! My “plan” at this point (having not set foot on the course YET) is to try to hold 15min pace or faster (on the flat part) for the first 20ish miles which will allow for almost 20min pace for the hilly last 8ish miles. Spending as little time as possible at aid stations (because I can’t afford the time) and having someone jump in with me with around 10k to go (the pacer information is confusing and seems more geared toward the 50k from a logistics perspective.)

Fantastic idea! Having a feel for even part of the trail you'll be racing will give you some confidence. It will make things feel a bit more familiar.

Right. My biggest priority is the super hilly last 10ish miles.

 

[avondale]

Nooooo! Don’t say you’re nervous! I’m already nervous! My “plan” at this point (having not set foot on the course YET) is to try to hold 15min pace or faster (on the flat part) for the first 20ish miles which will allow for almost 20min pace for the hilly last 8ish miles. Spending as little time as possible at aid stations (because I can’t afford the time) and having someone jump in with me with around 10k to go (the pacer information is confusing and seems more geared toward the 50k from a logistics perspective.)

Ok, a 9-hour time limit is going to be tight for you. I remember that now when you were initially discussing this, because that's a pretty tight time limit for a 50k, really. Not sure why they do that when there's a lot of daylight in northern Michigan in August. It starts at 6:30am - why do they need all 50k runners to be finished by 3:30pm? It's a mystery. Hmm...it's on Sunday (while the 50-miler is Saturday), so maybe they are worried about cleaning things up from the event before the weekend is over.

I'm just worried that you're looking at 9 hours of continuously moving and you will have maybe done half that time in one of your long runs. But this may be where all your refereeing will help because you spend so much time on your feet with that.

I finished my first 50k in 9 hours (https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...c-2018-comments-welcome.3725621/post-65241987). I had trained to aim for 8 hours and I think that was a very reasonable goal, but (1) we had apocalyptic rainfall for the first several hours so the course was a mudpit and (2) I was sick. (Don't do a race soon after Christmas when you can pick up germs from all the relatives you visit.) But that averaged out to a 16:00 pace...I mention that because, yes, it means if you can keep to 15:00 pace, you will be good. That's going to be tough, though.

You should consider having a change of socks (and shoes if you have two pairs you like) in a drop area, especially if it will be raining. It will make your feet feel a lot better. This can also be a time to either refill reservoirs or trade out empty bottles for filled ones. It won't take that much time for all of this, but, yes, it will be something to think about in terms of pacing. A pacer for the end of the course will definitely help keep you moving, too, so that's a bonus if you can make that work.

It's too late to change your plan now, so I guess I just suggest doing as much of that longest long run as you can.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Ok, a 9-hour time limit is going to be tight for you. I remember that now when you were initially discussing this, because that's a pretty tight time limit for a 50k, really. Not sure why they do that when there's a lot of daylight in northern Michigan in August. It starts at 6:30am - why do they need all 50k runners to be finished by 3:30pm? It's a mystery. Hmm...it's on Sunday (while the 50-miler is Saturday), so maybe they are worried about cleaning things up from the event before the weekend is over.

I'm assuming that's what it is. They sweep the entire trail for trash.

I'm just worried that you're looking at 9 hours of continuously moving and you will have maybe done half that time in one of your long runs. But this may be where all your refereeing will help because you spend so much time on your feet with that.

Unfortunately for me, refereeing is done until probably November at this point. But on the plus side, it's summer so we are a lot more active at home, and all of my Disney marathons have been around 7 hours, so I'm not going to be in completely uncharted territory. I'm sure new things will hurt. I know my feet will.

I finished my first 50k in 9 hours (https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...c-2018-comments-welcome.3725621/post-65241987). I had trained to aim for 8 hours and I think that was a very reasonable goal, but (1) we had apocalyptic rainfall for the first several hours so the course was a mudpit and (2) I was sick. (Don't do a race soon after Christmas when you can pick up germs from all the relatives you visit.) But that averaged out to a 16:00 pace...I mention that because, yes, it means if you can keep to 15:00 pace, you will be good. That's going to be tough, though.

Yes. It's definitely going to be tough. That's part of the reason I signed up for it (I needed something new that would push me) but also the part that is making me anxious.

You should consider having a change of socks (and shoes if you have two pairs you like) in a drop area, especially if it will be raining. It will make your feet feel a lot better. This can also be a time to either refill reservoirs or trade out empty bottles for filled ones. It won't take that much time for all of this, but, yes, it will be something to think about in terms of pacing. A pacer for the end of the course will definitely help keep you moving, too, so that's a bonus if you can make that work.

I've been stalking my current shoes. They're last year's model, so they're already discounted, but amazon seems to have some sort of rotating 30% discount off of that, so I'm trying to wait them out to get the color I want. (Priorities, ya know.) I will definitely be stashing spare shoes/socks/insoles in a drop bag if the weather looks like it could be wet at all.

I'm trying to work out all of the kinks with fueling stops and refills for my vest. I usually only drink about half the water I'm putting in it on my 3hr runs right now, and I think I'd like to keep it only about 2/3 full at the most just because of weight. I'm considering trying Tailwind again even though I didn't love it last time I tried it.


Honestly, if there was a really cheap way for me to have all of the pockets I *want* I would just ditch the vest altogether. But the alternatives seem to be a $50 belt (Naked) or nearly $100 shorts (Janji, Wolaco, etc.) I could justify the shorts, but since I already have 2 nathan belts (that I don't love) and 3 SPI belts, I can only imagine the eyeroll I would get from DH.

It's too late to change your plan now, so I guess I just suggest doing as much of that longest long run as you can.

If I planned to stretch that longest long run to more like 25 or 26, would you suggest I do that at my last long run?

Well, I mean it's not too late and I'm pretty sure I could change to the half, but I kind of think I'd rather take a DNF on time than "give up" on something I've been talking about for years. I think I'm going to try to get down to the trail on the 12th for 16mi and see what it's really like. I feel like doing the last 10ish (basically a loop), and then maybe the first few miles (as an OAB) might be a good idea. And if I manage to get down there another time or 2, I can look at the middle and possibly the end again, since that's where I anticipate the issues being. Some logistics will definitely be involved there with kids and dogs and trying to find someone to go with me.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Oh noooooooooo. I think I may have messed up my training plan. I know I had fiddled with it a little bit, but I just realized that I have a lot of long run weekends in a row with no cutback?? I've never had to think this much about a plan because I always just did what Billy told me to do.

My July weekends look like this:
-10mi with 30min moderate in the middle/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-16mi/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-20mi with 1hr moderate in the middle/8mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-35k working on pushing downhills/OFF

August is:
-20mi with 30min moderate in the middle/6-10mi with 8x30sec hills
looking back at the plan I used, it's listed at 10mi with 30min moderate in the middle and 6-10mi with 8x30sec hills
so I either had a typo there, or figured I would need another really long run?? but also, the indicated mileage total for the week doesn't line up. 5+(2+speed intervals+2) + 5 + 10 + 10 doesn't equal 43. no one is getting 9mi out of a 6x3min fast with 1 min recovery.

-16mi/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-10mi with 20min moderate in the middle/5mi with 4x30sec hills
-race weekend

 

[The Expert]

Oh noooooooooo. I think I may have messed up my training plan. I know I had fiddled with it a little bit, but I just realized that I have a lot of long run weekends in a row with no cutback?? I've never had to think this much about a plan because I always just did what Billy told me to do.

I totally live in fear of this. It does seem like that 20mi should be shorter, so maybe you missed another short run somewhere else that week, or transposed something else wrong? I have no experience with ultra/trail training plans, but maybe compare the last month of some other plans out there and see what they do.

 

[sandam1]

Oh noooooooooo. I think I may have messed up my training plan. I know I had fiddled with it a little bit, but I just realized that I have a lot of long run weekends in a row with no cutback??

I'm going to make a suggestion - join the Galloway Customized Training Plan for the next two months and let Chris figure it out (I know that he'll love me for this ). Chris is an extremely experienced ultra runner (hello, 17-time finisher of the Hard Rock 100) and tapping his expertise would probably give you the best chance to finish upright - and get to the start line healthy. There is a discount code on the Rise & Run Facebook page to save some $$, but even at full price, I suspect that it would be worth it.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I'm going to make a suggestion - join the Galloway Customized Training Plan for the next two months and let Chris figure it out (I know that he'll love me for this ). Chris is an extremely experienced ultra runner (hello, 17-time finisher of the Hard Rock 100) and tapping his expertise would probably give you the best chance to finish upright - and get to the start line healthy. There is a discount code on the Rise & Run Facebook page to save some $$, but even at full price, I suspect that it would be worth it.

I really thought about it before I started, but it's definitely not in the budget at this point. (I don't know what the R&R code gets it down to, but the price on the galloway website is prohibitive for me currently.) If I got to the point where I wanted to be serious about a POT for a marathon, or cared more about my pace I would consider it more seriously.

At this point I'm 7.5 weeks out from race day. I'm in for a penny, in for a pound on the plan I've been using. All things considered, it's working; my 14mi training run on Saturday went really well, and I'm kind of in the convincing myself that I probably actually need to do these miles in training when I've gotten away with doing the absolute bare minimum for the last few years.

ETA: I got into the R&R group and the discount there is significant. WOW.

 

[sandam1]

(I don't know what the R&R code gets it down to, but the price on the galloway website is prohibitive for me currently.)

I think that it's $49 per month with the R&R discount. So two months is less than a good pair of sneakers.

At this point I'm 7.5 weeks out from race day. I'm in for a penny, in for a pound on the plan I've been using.

In my mind, the longer distances are actually where it is more critical that you get it right. Too few miles and you may not be prepared for race day. Too many miles and you are risking injury. With the way that your current plan has you stacking the mileage, it seems to me like you are really threading that needle. Having someone with trail ultra experience to guide you is worth considering.

 

[The Expert]

ETA: I got into the R&R group and the discount there is significant. WOW.

Rise & Run??

I think that it's $49 per month with the R&R discount. So two months is less than a good pair of sneakers.

WHAT?! I've been dragging my feet due to cost too, but DAYUMMM!

 

[sandam1]

Rise & Run??

Yes. If you look in the featured section of their Facebook page (or probably in the show notes from last week's episode with Chris Twiggs), the link is there.

WHAT?! I've been dragging my feet due to cost too, but DAYUMMM!

It is truly a great value!

 

[nancipants]

Rise & Run??


WHAT?! I've been dragging my feet due to cost too, but DAYUMMM!

Yes, and cheaper if you pay for the whole year ($449).

 

[avondale]

Honestly, if there was a really cheap way for me to have all of the pockets I *want* I would just ditch the vest altogether. But the alternatives seem to be a $50 belt (Naked) or nearly $100 shorts (Janji, Wolaco, etc.) I could justify the shorts, but since I already have 2 nathan belts (that I don't love) and 3 SPI belts, I can only imagine the eyeroll I would get from DH.

I'm all in on using my hydration vest pockets plus I have two side pockets on my shorts, so I can't recommend anything here.

If I planned to stretch that longest long run to more like 25 or 26, would you suggest I do that at my last long run?

Well, I mean it's not too late and I'm pretty sure I could change to the half, but I kind of think I'd rather take a DNF on time than "give up" on something I've been talking about for years. I think I'm going to try to get down to the trail on the 12th for 16mi and see what it's really like. I feel like doing the last 10ish (basically a loop), and then maybe the first few miles (as an OAB) might be a good idea. And if I manage to get down there another time or 2, I can look at the middle and possibly the end again, since that's where I anticipate the issues being. Some logistics will definitely be involved there with kids and dogs and trying to find someone to go with me.

Yes, I'd go for 25 mi on that longest long run....EXCEPT you don't want to have too big of a jump in distance from the long run before that to that run. In other words, you still need to keep a reasonable increasing progression in distance for your long runs. That's why I say it's too late to change things now...you'd have to be adjusting backwards through several weeks at least, which may have ripple effects in your other plans.

My July weekends look like this:
-10mi with 30min moderate in the middle/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-16mi/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-20mi with 1hr moderate in the middle/8mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-35k working on pushing downhills/OFF

August is:
-20mi with 30min moderate in the middle/6-10mi with 8x30sec hills
looking back at the plan I used, it's listed at 10mi with 30min moderate in the middle and 6-10mi with 8x30sec hills
so I either had a typo there, or figured I would need another really long run?? but also, the indicated mileage total for the week doesn't line up. 5+(2+speed intervals+2) + 5 + 10 + 10 doesn't equal 43. no one is getting 9mi out of a 6x3min fast with 1 min recovery.

-16mi/6mi with 4x30sec fast and 2min recovery
-10mi with 20min moderate in the middle/5mi with 4x30sec hills
-race weekend

So is this what you have in your plan, you think?

• July 5/6: 10 mi + 6 mi
• July 12/13: 16 mi + 6 mi
• July 19/20: 20 mi + 8 mi
• July 26/27: 35k (21.7 mi) + zero
• Aug 2/3: 20 mi + 6 - 10 mi
• Aug 9/10: 16 mi + 6 mi
• Aug 16/17: 10 mi + 5 mi
• Aug 23/24: race weekend

Well, the weekend of July 26/27 could potentially be seen as a cut-back week because your total mileage for the two days is quite a bit lower than the week before or after. I honestly might suggest you keep this as is except decrease July 26/27 a bit more (maybe 25k) to make this more of a cut-back week.

I feel like making Aug. 2/3 be 10 mi + 6 - 10 mi is going too low. That would make Jul 26/27 your peak week (or arguably July 19/20 would be your peak week), and that's a month or more before the race. That seems too soon. That's why I like keeping Aug. 2/3 as your biggest week.

Suggestions that I've seen for tapering for ultras is that 3 weeks before the race is peak, 2 weeks before you do 75% of your longest long run, and 1 week before do 50% of your longest long run. (I usually make that 1 week run even shorter so I can rest more.)

So....I'd suggest cutting that July 26/27 week a bit more to make it definitively a cut-back week for some recovery and then do August as written above.

Once you get past your longest long run (Aug. 2/3), then I'd suggest being more flexible with the runs in the taper. During the taper you won't be doing things that will have time to improve your fitness, so it's more about balancing what's needed to keep your legs working well and not doing so much that you can't recover for the race. So if you feel you need more recovery, cut back the taper runs more.

 

[avondale]

• July 5/6: 10 mi + 6 mi
• July 12/13: 16 mi + 6 mi
• July 19/20: 20 mi + 8 mi
• July 26/27: 35k (21.7 mi) + zero
• Aug 2/3: 20 mi + 6 - 10 mi
• Aug 9/10: 16 mi + 6 mi
• Aug 16/17: 10 mi + 5 mi
• Aug 23/24: race weekend

I meant to comment more on the longest long run. Assuming that you go with Aug. 2/3 being your longest long run...yes, that's 20 mi.

If you were to increase this to 25 mi, then you'd have a jump from 20 mi on July 19/20 before the cut-back week (July 26/27). That might actually be reasonable. Because the plan already had that previous 20-miler included, you could potentially keep progressing.

But that's going to be a lot of time to get that 25-mi long run done. You've also had a pretty aggressive increase in long run distance, going up by about 5 miles per week. It may be too much to try to go up to 25 miles in terms of how much it will wear you out. You could leave it as a decision to be made when you see what the conditions are like that weekend - relatively cool weather? Go for 25 miles. Still hot and humid? stick with 20 miles.