Entrapment?

[Geoff_M]

I don't think anyone here is defending the suspects in this case. What the OP was questioning is why wasn't this considered entrapment - and people were giving their opinions on that. No one is saying they want a child to be molested but that we want the police to do it properly so that they aren't set free.

I agree.... I don't see what the "controversy" is here. I don't see anyone saying that such stings are categorically improper. The only question is one of "process", and doing it right.

And yes, I do think that the rights of the accused do matter.

 

[Handbag Lady]

Just to make things perfectly clear, I have no sympathy for the men caught. I just wonder how close they come to crossing a fine line in setting up these situations. I am in no way support the rights of child molesters!

Oh, I didn't think you did. Clearly you are questioning the method of catching them, not the men nor their actions.

 

[Geoff_M]

When law enforcement participates in online communication in these cases there is a protocol they follow. Rest assured, at least in Michigan, the example you outlined above would not occur.

I agree that it's highly unlikely, but criminals can and are released due to entrapment. Charge have been dropped in some of the "To Catch a Predator" cases due to the way that they were conducted and ABC's 20/20 actually did a story about some of more controversial and ethical issues with NBC's and Perverted Justice's stings. In 2008 NBC settled out of court a $100M lawsuit with the widow of a man that committed suicide during a police standoff when, after failing to show at the "decoy house", police (equipped with NBC video cameras) and NBC staff went to his home to arrest him instead. Critics argued that the man, a prosecuting attorney, could have been safely arrested at work or outside of his home but that NBC had pushed for (and stage managed) a home arrest because they thought it would be better for the TV show. My point here is that there's plenty of evidence that at times these stings aren't quite done 100% right.

My post was in reaction to the notion put forward by another poster that since the men voluntarily answered the ad then by definition it cannot be entrapment. That assertion is false.

And again, I doubt that there's anything wrong with the way that the stings the OP is referring to were conducted since their protocols were reviewed by the state AG's office beforehand.

 

[sam_gordon]

Regarding the OP... I don't think there are enough facts to say that this is entrapment. It depends on what the ad says, how the suspects answered the ads and how police responded to the responses. COULD there have been entrapment? Yes, but I doubt it.

What scares me more about this whole thread are those who apparently want to live in a police state:
(paraphrasing)

I don't care how they catch them.

If they're caught, they did something wrong.

Suspects should have no rights once they're arrested.

Should people who break the law be prosecuted to the fullest extent? Yes. But that doesn't mean police, DAs, investigators, etc can do whatever they want. Do you REALLY want to give police that kind of power? Should police be able to physically abuse someone to gain a confession? Should police be able to plant evidence on a suspect in order to get a conviction? After all "whatever they need to do", right? Be careful about the slope we're heading toward by giving investigators too much power.

 

[Acklander]

Should people who break the law be prosecuted to the fullest extent? Yes. But that doesn't mean police, DAs, investigators, etc can do whatever they want. Do you REALLY want to give police that kind of power? Should police be able to physically abuse someone to gain a confession? Should police be able to plant evidence on a suspect in order to get a conviction? After all "whatever they need to do", right? Be careful about the slope we're heading toward by giving investigators too much power.

Exactly. The procedures are there for a reason.

 

[Hercules10]

Think about it. Who would want this to go to court?

The ad can NOT say "Sex with a minor for money". Instead the police "code" the ad in order to illicit responses.

When the men are arrested they are charged (not convicted) with a crime they do NOT wish to be made public for their employers, family etc. to see. So the men usually just plead guilty to either the full charge or plea deal for a lesser charge to avoid a jury trial.

Most that go to a jury would have a difficult time getting a conviction. But once again most men don't want to take it that far. Authorities are counting on this to get 'em off the streets faster.

 

[bumbershoot]

While I think these men are sleazebags, these practices bother me. To me, it seems like entrapment.

I think I'm with you.

It makes me feel like it's "thought crime", not actual crime. A person thinks "that would be nice" and they are arrested without having actually DONE anything. (and yay, they haven't done anything, but still, they haven't DONE anything except for think about it)

I guess maybe "soliciting" means just words...before reading this thread I thought it meant you actually had to DO something, not just talk about it and offer money...but it seems I'm wrong on that...

But with just an offer, a thought...it just feel uncomfortable to me.

Particularly if there's no explicit offer of an illegal act with a minor contained in the ad text... which the police generally avoid doing lest it aid in an entrapment defense.

And that's where I am opposite...to me, offering makes it NOT entrapment, because the person is explicitly saying "yes this is what I want to do, let's go!", isntead of just this "you showed up here, it's implied what you want to do" sort of arrest.

A person can change their mind at ANY moment before doing something, but these arrests get the people without having the chance to change their minds.

Actually, as a citizen of the United States, I am concerned about the rights of offenders. That doesn't mean that I condone what they have done, or don't find their actions disgusting, it just means that we, as a society, have to respect their rights. If we don't follows these most basic set of rules and rights then we are no better than the criminals themselves.

IMO you lose those civil rights when you choose to break the law...especially a law that protects children. What happens if we wait until these pervs actually committ a crime against a child?

A *thought* doesn't harm a child.

So taking it down a million notches, let's say I've had it up to HERE with my kid and I'm thinking about hitting him. I get as far as raising my hand with all of the intent in the world to hit him hard....and then I change my mind, reason re-enters my mind and I stop and figure out a better way to deal with the situation. Crisis averted.

But let's say I'm arrested as my hand is in the air just as I'm thinking "oh dear no".

Is that right? Does the arrest for having the hand in the air reflect what would have actually happened? Or is it now a crime to have a hand in the air, THINKING about something?

Is it a crime to go to a place THINKING about something (incredibly nasty of course, though honestly the social construct with ages and limits on "activity" is a pretty new one and isn't in all cultures, so really, I'm not sure biology goes along with the very nice limits some current cultures have placed upon society)? IF it is, well OK then. That might be the "soliciting" part that seems to be "offering" not "going forth with it".


Just feels like thought crime to me, and I thought that was just in fiction.

 

[TwingleMum]

The police will bend over backwards to arrest someone with a pot seed on the floor of their car, but someone that just killed someone in a drunk driving accident gets off. Drives me crazy. I think we need to do some serious prioritization with our police resources, lay off the drug and non-violent crimes and focus on the things that wreck other people's lives, like murder, robbery, rape etc.

You are misinformed. The Police do not let drunk drivers off. There are little things called Laws. Laws have punishments that are attached to them if you will. A judge decides at his discretion and within the Laws Statute how much of a punishment the defendant will receive. Believe me Police Officers are often sick when they get Court Notifications about what people they have arrested are ultimately allowed to plea to. All in an effort to save tax payers money and move the Court Calendar along.

Also drugs are not crimes that don't effect innocent people. Heroin addicts often support their habit by breaking into neighbors homes and taking their precious possessions like Grandma's wedding ring that can't be replaced.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Entrapment is forcing a person to commit a crime that person would not normally commit by him or herself.

If instead of this being the police, it was a real father or mother posting on craigslist offering their child, these men would have responded. The authorities did not do anything to "force" these people into this situation.

Therefore, it is not entrapment.

 

[Acklander]

Also drugs are not crimes that don't effect innocent people. Heroin addicts often support their habit by breaking into neighbors homes and taking their precious possessions like Grandma's wedding ring that can't be replaced.

There are plenty of drug users who are able to use drugs without ripping off and selling Grandma's wedding ring. so how about we save the courtrooms and jails for those who steal from others (for whatever reason, not just drugs), not those who choose to use drugs. That makes more sense to me.

 

[Jaybrad]

I don't think that is what he's saying. I believe he is saying what I am saying. Police resources are being used to set up manufactured situations to arrest people who have yet to commit a crime. Do we know that they would commit a crime if the situation were not set up? No.

This was not the same as a guy going out and finding an innocent child on the street. They put an ad in the paper advertising that a young girl wanted to have sex for money. It was a totally manufactured situation.

The operation was to apprehend and prevent the "guy" from finding an innocent child on the street. Thank you Police Department!!! What would you think if the "guy" had been from you neighborhood. Better they catch them on Craig's List than in some one's home!

 

[rie'smom]

I don't think that is what he's saying. I believe he is saying what I am saying. Police resources are being used to set up manufactured situations to arrest people who have yet to commit a crime. Do we know that they would commit a crime if the situation were not set up? No.

This was not the same as a guy going out and finding an innocent child on the street. They put an ad in the paper advertising that a young girl wanted to have sex for money. It was a totally manufactured situation.

Would it be better if they had found and molested an innocent child? Child molesters can not be rehabilitated. What does that tell you? Once police look at the computers of these perverts, they will more than likely find more efforts by these perverts to find kids.

Along the same lines, security agencies are always trying to prevent terrorist attacks before they happen and this will lead to arrests. Sometimes stings are set up to catch these people. Should they wait until the attack happens before the terrorists are arrested?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

In this case, I think some kind of change of money should have occurred (assuming this was a prostitution incident). Just posting an ad and having someone respond isn't really good enough, in my opinion. In prostitution, drug, and hitman stings, a exchange of money must be made in order for an arrest to occur.

HOWEVER, this still isn't entrapment.

 

[LisaR]

In this case, I think some kind of change of money should have occurred (assuming this was a prostitution incident). Just posting an ad and having someone respond isn't really good enough, in my opinion. In prostitution, drug, and hitman stings, a exchange of money must be made in order for an arrest to occur.

HOWEVER, this still isn't entrapment.

Unless I misread something, this isn't a prostitution charge. They were soliciting sex from a minor; totally different than soliciting sex from a prostitute. In this case, no money would exchange hands. Based on the Chris Hanson reports that he used to do, the decoy would give the scum bag a list of things to bring to prove intent. If the scum showed up to the house with the specific items like condoms, booze, etc. that proved intent. I don't know if they did that in this case but it isn't prostitution.

 

[FireDancer]

Unless I misread something, this isn't a prostitution charge. They were soliciting sex from a minor; totally different than soliciting sex from a prostitute. In this case, no money would exchange hands. Based on the Chris Hanson reports that he used to do, the decoy would give the scum bag a list of things to bring to prove intent. If the scum showed up to the house with the specific items like condoms, booze, etc. that proved intent. I don't know if they did that in this case but it isn't prostitution.

What I learned from "To Catch a Predator" was that condoms and Zima are the kiddy-fiddler swag of choice. I'm waiting for Zima to start sporting this seal:

 

[bettymae1121]

I'm fine with stings like these as long as whoever sets them up does so in a way that the charges will stick. Otherwise it's just a waste of time and money, and the criminals go free.

Now we can argue about the fact there are so many technicalities that allow criminals to go free in the first place, but while these rules are in place it's up to the police and prosecutors to follow them.

 

[Robinrs]

Sting or whatever I'm all for catching these sleaze buckets whatever way possible. I love to Catch a Predator because it showed the world their faces, something ALL of them should have the pleasure of! I want every single female to be on the lookout for these faces, there are more than anyone can imagine.

22 in ten minutes? Imagine, these are the same men who would've gone after and FOUND a minor girl without the help of CL. I have no sympathy or care for any of them. My only problem is they weren't drawn and quartered on sight.

 

[dngnb8]

a sting and entrapment are 2 different things.

Entrapment is a situation of no escape. Example

One parks a school bus on a 2 lane road at teh stop sign. Leaves the red flashing lights on, and leave the bus there. They park their cruiser around the block.

people drive up.... wait....wait.... then go around and the cop red lights them. That is entrapment. The vehicle had no choice.

A sting gives people the choice.

 

[slayman]

I cannot speak to all of the 22 cases, but ...

The craigslist listing was posted in the adult personals women for men

The ad does not state anything about a minor

The ad stated that that the woman was 31

the young man sent a response to this woman seeking NSA sex

The woman/operative later threw out the idea of involving a minor

This set-up differed from department of justice guidelines, standard police procedure for online stings, and otherwise looks like entrapment.

The defense is setting the case up for dismissal and appeal, if necessary.

The cops should be waiting for the perps, not creating them. The Florida Supreme Court has told the police that they should not be involved in morals testing.

Journalists need to do investigations, not public relations.

 

[cm8]

I cannot speak to all of the 22 cases, but ...

The craigslist listing was posted in the adult personals women for men

The ad does not state anything about a minor

The ad stated that that the woman was 31

the young man sent a response to this woman seeking NSA sex

The woman/operative later threw out the idea of involving a minor

This set-up differed from department of justice guidelines, standard police procedure for online stings, and otherwise looks like entrapment.

The defense is setting the case up for dismissal and appeal, if necessary.

The cops should be waiting for the perps, not creating them. The Florida Supreme Court has told the police that they should not be involved in morals testing.

Journalists need to do investigations, not public relations.

Welcome and thanks for the facts of your case