England is Vanishing...

[kendodd]

We had a TON of international support for the USA when we were focusing our attention on going after terrorists, because other nations could see that as a benefit to all. It was only when we started going after something that wasn't in everyone's interest, only our own, that we lost support.

Well said.

 

[eclectics]

If they didn't, they should have. However, on the other hand, despite the diffficulties, the growing pains, the black eyes, we have emerged as a great nation that believes that freedom and liberty is a God given right and not betowed by man.

So, in other words, when we do it, we are a shining beacon that improves culture, but when anybody else is percieved to be doing it, they are overunning and ruining the country. I get it now.

 

[DawnCt1]

The problem with that is EVERY nation feels that way!! Iran feels like when they do what is best for Iran, they do what is best for the world, China feels like when they do what is best for China, that's what is best for the world and so on....sure, the individual people probably don't all feel that way-but nation-state conciousness is very ego-centric.

.

Except there is no objective evidence for that. Iran exports terrorism. That is a fact. They support terror groups with money, arms and missiles that lob fire at our soldiers. They support terrorism directed towards Israel. They suppress their own people. The same is true for China, what have they done for the liberation and freedom of other countries in the world. Their own people have very limited freedoms. I will paraphrase what Collin Powell has said; In all of our battles, the only ground we ever asked for was the ground to bury our dead. We helped liberate Europe, we didn't subjugate it.

 

[eclectics]

By doing what's best for America, we do what is best for the world. We are not the "problem", we are the solution.

And you have no clue that someone from another country might find that statement arrogant and offensive, right?

 

[DawnCt1]

And you have no clue that someone from another country might find that statement arrogant and offensive, right?

I am sure that they might, but when we have helped to feed the world, immunized the world, helped save the world from Nazism and Japanese Imperialism, and when most European countries can have a smaller military budget that the United States because they know that we will be their to defend them at any cost, they may rethink their opinion. Particularly if threatened.

 

[eclectics]

I am sure that they might, but when we have helped to feed the world, immunized the world, helped save the world from Nazism and Japanese Imperialism, and when most European countries can have a smaller military budget that the United States because they know that we will be their to defend them at any cost, they may rethink their opinion. Particularly if threatened.

And some may think that sort of "in your face" attitude merely fuels the fire of radicalism and extremism, and is quite dangerous, especially in this day and age.

 

[kendodd]

I will paraphrase what Collin Powell has said; In all of our battles, the only ground we ever asked for was the ground to bury our dead.

Did he add by any chance, "and the oppotunity to cover up the odd massacre here and there." (My Lai).

 

[Fitswimmer]

Except there is no objective evidence for that. Iran exports terrorism. That is a fact. They support terror groups with money, arms and missiles that lob fire at our soldiers. They support terrorism directed towards Israel. They suppress their own people. The same is true for China, what have they done for the liberation and freedom of other countries in the world. Their own people have very limited freedoms. I will paraphrase what Collin Powell has said; In all of our battles, the only ground we ever asked for was the ground to bury our dead. We helped liberate Europe, we didn't subjugate it.

WE call it terrorism and so does most of the Western world..Iran does NOT they call it "protecting their national interests".

 

[Fitswimmer]

Except there is no objective evidence for that. Iran exports terrorism. That is a fact. They support terror groups with money, arms and missiles that lob fire at our soldiers. They support terrorism directed towards Israel. They suppress their own people. The same is true for China, what have they done for the liberation and freedom of other countries in the world. Their own people have very limited freedoms. I will paraphrase what Collin Powell has said; In all of our battles, the only ground we ever asked for was the ground to bury our dead. We helped liberate Europe, we didn't subjugate it.

Assuming that the US is always on the side of the angels is hardly objective. There's a whole lot of history being swept under the carpet there....

 

[eclectics]

WE call it terrorism and so does most of the Western world..Iran does NOT they call it "protecting their national interests".

As does Israel, who, let's face it, has done some debatable things in the name of "National Interest" over the years.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

WE call it terrorism and so does most of the Western world..Iran does NOT they call it "protecting their national interests".

It is still terrorism, no matter what they call it. And the world should respond accordingly.

 

[DawnCt1]

And some may think that sort of "in your face" attitude merely fuels the fire of radicalism and extremism, and is quite dangerous, especially in this day and age.

It has been fueled for years. We have been attacked for years. We have enboldened our enemy by not standing up. When it comes to radical Islam, there are essentially three choices;
1. Submit to Islam
2. Destroy Islam
3. Reform Islam. Obviously options #1 and #2 are unacceptable. A free people does not submit to an ideology that we do not believe in, and option #2 is unthinkable. It is not who "we are". An opportunity for Muslims to lead a reformation, like every other major religion is the only option and how can they do it if they are stifled by theocracies and oppression? If they fear other Muslims because they aren't "observant enough"? Islamic countries in which the people are free to pursue their dreams, pursue capitalism and make individual choices in their lives, are people who don't have the time nor interest in terrorism. But even those countries haven't been safe from insurgents who would change their way of life to a more intolerant society.

 

[Kath2003]

Wow. I'm actually going to leave this thread because I cannot believe that people honestly have been this influenced by islamophobic media. I genuinely cannot believe that grown adults see a huge number of people as the tiny minority which they are shown through the media.

Besides, this thread has gone well away from the original discussion onto the "global problem of Islam"...

This has certainly been eye opening. It's really enlightening to see how some people view other countries - you really should visit some...

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

The problem with that is EVERY nation feels that way!! Iran feels like when they do what is best for Iran, they do what is best for the world, China feels like when they do what is best for China, that's what is best for the world and so on....sure, the individual people probably don't all feel that way-but nation-state conciousness is very ego-centric.

There are times when we do all have to play nice and get along and sometimes that means that we can't do exactly what we want. Wise leaders of nation-states will know how to "pick their battles".

We had a TON of international support for the USA when we were focusing our attention on going after terrorists, because other nations could see that as a benefit to all. It was only when we started going after something that wasn't in everyone's interest, only our own, that we lost support.

It wasn't in everyone's interest because many countries either had sweatheart deals (or bribes) with Saddam or had too short of an attention span. They were more interested in themselves.

 

[DawnCt1]

Assuming that the US is always on the side of the angels is hardly objective. There's a whole lot of history being swept under the carpet there....

And this is a mild example of self loathing that inhibits many Americans from standing up and saying, we are a great country and we have done great things. If one doesn't believe in one's culture, one can't defend it.

 

[DawnCt1]

It wasn't in everyone's interest because many countries either had sweatheart deals (or bribes) with Saddam or had too short of an attention span. They were more interested in themselves.

Absolutely, if in fact, Russia, France and Germany took a very different stance during the run up to the war, things might have been different, and who is still selling arms, including a state of the art fighter to Iran? Russia.

 

[eclectics]

It has been fueled for years. We have been attacked for years. We have enboldened our enemy by not standing up. When it comes to radical Islam, there are essentially three choices;
1. Submit to Islam
2. Destroy Islam
3. Reform Islam. Obviously options #1 and #2 are unacceptable. A free people does not submit to an ideology that we do not believe in, and option #2 is unthinkable. It is not who "we are". An opportunity for Muslims to lead a reformation, like every other major religion is the only option and how can they do it if they are stifled by theocracies and oppression? If they fear other Muslims because they aren't "observant enough"? Islamic countries in which the people are free to pursue their dreams, pursue capitalism and make individual choices in their lives, are people who don't have the time nor interest in terrorism. But even those countries haven't been safe from insurgents who would change their way of life to a more intolerant society.

And you would be okay with someone telling you, because of real or imagined faults, you MUST change your religious belief system to accommodate their way of thinking? Or that you must reform your religion because some in it are radicals? Somehow I doubt that, Dawn. It's amazing that you and others like you who feel this way regarding Islam never seem to want to see things from the standpoint of the majority of Muslims, who are good, peace loving people and who merely want to practice their centuries old religion in peace. Try it once.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Wow. I'm actually going to leave this thread because I cannot believe that people honestly have been this influenced by islamophobic media. I genuinely cannot believe that grown adults see a huge number of people as the tiny minority which they are shown through the media.

Besides, this thread has gone well away from the original discussion onto the "global problem of Islam"...

This has certainly been eye opening. It's really enlightening to see how some people view other countries - you really should visit some...

(emphasis mine)

The fear is based on reality, not a phobia.
The tiny minority of exteremists isn't so tiny and it is a global problem.

 

[DawnCt1]

And you would be okay with someone telling you, because of real or imagined faults, you MUST change your religious belief system to accommodate their way of thinking? Or that you must reform your religion because some in it are radicals? Somehow I doubt that, Dawn. It's amazing that you and others like you who feel this way regarding Islam never seem to want to see things from the standpoint of the majority of Muslims, who are good, peace loving people and who merely want to practice their centuries old religion in peace. Try it once.

Not at all. Reformations must come from within but with the theocracies funding the radical madrassas at home and abroad, in order to deflect their populations from their own misery, there is no opportunity for the mainstream muslims to reach the radicalized element. We know that beheading is a FAULT, it is not imagined. We know that fatwas on the heads of authors is a fault and not consistant with free societies. We know that suppression of women is a fault. Mainstream Christian and Jewish denominations quickly condemn those who express radical, hateful ideals. They aren't embraced. They aren't given shelter and they certainly aren't given funds by mainstream religious organizations. We have had our reformation.

 

[Fitswimmer]

It is still terrorism, no matter what they call it. And the world should respond accordingly.

I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that in many parts of the world, people believe the EXACT SAME THING about the USA and our actions.

Recognizing that fact doesn't mean we have to agree. Knowing how others think is important in predicting how they are going to respond. Assuming that everyone in the world thinks exactly like we do is short sighted and leaves us vulnerable.