Ending a marriage (long overdue update #55)

[Scurvy]

No flames here. You've done more than your fair share. The rest of this post has nothing to do with what you owe your husband - I think you've done all that you owe him already. However, it still seems like your marriage might be able to survive if the two of you could get on the same page. The rest of this post only applies if you are sure you want to fight to fix this marriage.

Go and have a face to face conversation with him. This email stuff needs to stop! If you truly want to give this a shot you cannot keep emailing.

He did read it and at least he called you - he didn't ignore it. Just go talk to him.

I agree. Given how well your husband seems to communicate, the fact that he called without you having to ask if he read the email is progress, even if it isn't as much progress as you would hope for.

You've gone way outside your comfort zone already, and obviously it hasn't worked as well as you would hope. And it isn't fair that you would have to do even more while he doesn't respond the way he ought to - after all it is "his turn" to make a move. But unfortunately relationships don't always work like that. If you really, truly don't want him to leave, then a face to face conversation seems to be the way to go. And even that may not work the way you hope, but what have you got to lose? You'll be more uncomfortable while you try to have the talk, and you'll know that right now you are making more than your fair share of the effort. But think about what you could potentially gain. I know you don't have the relationship you want right now, but it seems as though you'd still like that relationship with your husband rather than someone else if that's possible.

I think you should go to him when there aren't distractions going on and flat out ask him if he's willing to work on the relationship, and if he says yes then ask him when he wants to start.

(And by the way I'm the one who said you had trouble communicating - clearly you communicate very well. What I meant was that you and your husband don't seem to be able to communicate with each other, and that's why I think the two of you could benefit so much from counseling. I've read a lot about "love languages" and the way two people in a relationship can see the same thing different ways, and I wonder if that's part of the problem between you and your husband. Even if the marriage doesn't end up how you want and you still choose to end it, you will share your children for the rest of your lives and I think it would help if you were on the same page.)

 

[Serena]

At this point I don't think either one cares to put the energy into making it work. Yes, emails are not the best way but it was a start and he didn't really respond to that.

We are asking both of them to step out of their comfort zones and she is at least taking baby steps, but he is not cooperating in responding.

OP, is there someone you know or admire that is strong, caring and outspoken?
Could you for one paragraph emulate her? Walk up to him and tell him that you don't want the marriage to end but you are tired of talking to a brick wall and he needs to talk to you. To tell you what he wants. If you need to ask him yes or no questions so be it. Do you love me? Do you want to be married to me? Do you have a pulse? sorry, just had to add that one.

 

[Tuffcookie]

Talk face to face. Make sure he is making eye contact with you!

Do make the counselling appt.

(Tuffcookie leaving to put on her flame retardant suit.)

TC

 

[minkydog]

OP, you sound so frustrated. Please consider just talking to your husband. Enough with the emails and letters--have a conversation. I'm sorry he didn't take you up on the date. That sounded like a lot of fun.

I suggest that before you give up, because you do still love him, that you get some counseling on your own. If he agrees to go too, well, great! If not, do it anyway. You need to find better ways to communicate as much as he does.

 

[BelleWDW]

I got home around 5:15..Dh is watching tv in the bedroom, and he hasn't even come out to acknowledge I am home.

I'm not going to beg him to take me out. I am not going to beg him to talk to me. If he really wanted me to know his feelings about all this, but can't tell me, it would have been so easy for him to just repsond to my e-mail. I didn't even get a response to the e-mail.

So let this update start a new round of how I am not doing enough....

OK-Then GO INTO THE BEDROOM_HUG HIM_ KISS HIM_TALK TO HIM

H e CALLED you because he reAD it late -but you are upset because he didnt reply to the email via email!!.

Sorry, but the whole idea of you trying to communicate via email is simply ridiculous to me

 

[PrincessKsMom]

I don't believe the nay sayers on this thread will ever think OP has done enough. Even if her husband tells her he couldn't care less about her and doesn't want to be married, people on here will still think OP didn't do enough. Like I said a few pages back, OP's husband has no intention of changing or trying. OP take hold of your dignity and walk away. Stop listening to the people on this thread. Even if you don't believe it right now, you do deserve better than your DH is willing to give.

 

[Scurvy]

PrincessKsMom, I usually agree with you, but not on this thread. If I remember correctly you said that your marriage is similar to the OPs in some ways. I think you might be projecting your experience onto this situation. My marriage was also similar, for a while. My husband and I couldn't (or maybe wouldn't) communicate very well. Now we're happier than we've ever been. For us, counseling wasn't necessary. We just had to be willing to tell each other flat out how we felt and what we wanted. I can't imagine how my life would be now if I'd given up without a fight back when we weren't communicating. Now I have the marriage I always hoped I'd have. I have no idea if such a thing would be possible for the OP - but you don't, either. Of course if the OP's husband says he doesn't want to be married to her and couldn't care less about her then those of us who think she should keep trying would no longer think that. (At least I wouldn't - I would think no one else would, either.) But what does she have to lose by trying to talk to him face to face and by going to counseling with him? Time? If she loves him and wants to keep her family intact, maybe it's worth it to her to try a little longer.

 

[karibritt01]

OP... I'm really sorry that your attempt at a date didn't work out. Yes, he did read your email and call you. He did say it was too late to make plans for that evening. I do see where others think he made an attempt by responding. But the fact that he came home, and shut himself into the bedroom with the TV, and never further acknowledged the email, or the remaining content... I do see your side of it. I hope you are able to make the decisions best for your family. And I pray for you to have the strength and courage on whichever path you choose. Lean on your IRL friends... they will be your rocks right now.

 

[southernbelle5672]

I'm sorry that your efforts were seemingly ignored. I know it's hard to talk to him face to face and I think you're doing the best you can.

I feel like a lot of your most recent problems with communication, however, would be solved if you did talk face-to-face instead of through e-mails, notes, etc.

It could be that he doesn't know how to start up the conversation.

 

[Disney Doll]

This is such an unusual situation...2 people married for 14 years and not able to actually really speak to each other. It's really one of the most staggering communication breakdowns I have ever heard of...ending a marrige via e-mail and notes.

Since you have both been able to make the decision to divorce, it's probably best to let that go through at this point. You have a plan as to how to best move on to the next phase of your life, you have a plan as to caring for the emotional health of yourself & your children. DH is presumably devising a plan for when he needs to move out of the family home. And before I get accused of being "passive aggressive" again, I say that only because I don't recall any information outlining the husband's post-marriage plan.

 

[Took]

I don't believe the nay sayers on this thread will ever think OP has done enough. Even if her husband tells her he couldn't care less about her and doesn't want to be married, people on here will still think OP didn't do enough. Like I said a few pages back, OP's husband has no intention of changing or trying. OP take hold of your dignity and walk away. Stop listening to the people on this thread. Even if you don't believe it right now, you do deserve better than your DH is willing to give.

I agree absolutely. OP, you deserve far better than you're getting. I do strongly encourage you to talk to a counsellor, so that you can find peace with whatever decision you make and avoid falling into a similar relationship in the future.

 

[disneymarie]

I waited all day for him to call me. I kept thinking maybe he is working on his mother and making plans...he finally calls me at 4:20pm to tell me he had just now read my e-mail. I said "OK." (waiting for him to ask me out) He then says "It's kind of late to make any plans now." I said "Ok, I guess"

He heard the phone ringing in the backround and asked if it was busy. I said yes, it was starting to get busy, I had to go. We hung up.

So, that's it...no date night tonight because obviously 4:20 in the afternoon is far too late to make dinner plans. Or bar rooms plans. (If you're thinking of childcare and his mother, maybe he thought it was too late to ask her, she takes the kids at the drop of a hat, and even if she couldn't tonight, my kids are old enough to stay home alone for a couple of hours.)
I got home around 5:15..Dh is watching tv in the bedroom, and he hasn't even come out to acknowledge I am home.

I'm not going to beg him to take me out. I am not going to beg him to talk to me. If he really wanted me to know his feelings about all this, but can't tell me, it would have been so easy for him to just repsond to my e-mail. I didn't even get a response to the e-mail.

So let this update start a new round of how I am not doing enough....

You guys are throwing the volley ball back andforth from the opposite side of the court. Maybe you don't need to go out...Maybe you need some courting fromhome, Write a post it in you handwriting, not on the computer saying, I miss when you pat my butt, I miss when you use to hug me from behind, I am sorry may even be a start.

Mom may be protecting her son too. When he got the note with the idea she likely put a zammo to that. She took sides, guess who's.
You need to let him know that you were in a bad place making a choice like running away as a teen ager would want to. A teenager that could not talk to her parents.

You want a grown up marriage with hugs and kisses, hand squeezes and stop communicating by email.
Even if it is one sentece, or a smile a look in his eyes, maybe he wants real communication too.
Do both of you need to learn how? Is there a book.

Tell him about when he went out the door and you really wanted him to stay with you.
You don;t have to beg but you do have to speak up.
He needs to learn how to speak up.
Are there porch steps, can't you sit there and star gaze. Work up to the date night.

It may mean courting all over again.
Make a rule if you don't say it out loud, don't say it at all. You must not have really thought it out, and are writing thoughts, not reallity.

You may not be a praying person but say a prayer. God show my husband and I how to have a new marriage, a grown up one, and leave the comfort zone of day to day life.

Most of all wear his shoes, read your emails and note as if he wrote them to you and them answer them as you would anwer him saying all that you said.
I am sending hugs....
That moment you had, many marriages never get it.
Di

 

[DebIreland]

Most of all wear his shoes, read your emails and note as if he wrote them to you and them answer them as you would anwer him saying all that you said.

That's a genuinely nice sentiment and good advice but in the case of the OP I don't think it applies. I suspect he's so closed-off that he'd never in a million years write her an email like that so even imagining him writing it is just too far-fetched. And if he did write anything like that at any stage throughout their marriage, I suspect the OP would've been delighted and would've jumped at the chance to go on a date. I think she's in a unique situation cause her dh is closed-off in the extreme.

OP,
I might be wrong cause God knows, it's just an Internet forum and we can't know your situation in great detail but I would describe my experience living with an emotionally-sealed man like this (next para) and I wonder if it rings true for you (perhaps not):

Living with someone who refuses to communicate about anything but trivia is soul-destroying. No matter how much pain you're in, his first reaction is a non-reaction (stay mute or walk away). You can plead and yearn for them to reach out, express themselves, reassure you, share with you, plan the future etc. etc. but they remain brick walls and you suffer alone. And at some point you have no choice but to be influenced by their silence - you subconsciously accommodate them. You stop bringing up the marriage in conversations, you stop expressing your greatest ambitions and deepest fears because god knows it makes him so uncomfortable and closed-off, the tension it creates is unbearable. Anyway you know deep-down that you're never getting anything back (i.e. His thoughts, ambitions, feelings, fears) so it's only human that you stop trying.

At first you think, no, surely he'll share those things eventually, I'm his wife but after years you realise no, actually this is it, he's not opening up for anyone anytime. So you live with it until part of you breaks inside and you can't take all the pent-up thoughts, emotions, dreams any longer cause even if you don't want to rock the boat and you never wanted a marriage breakdown, you are human and your natural need for emotional intimacy cannot go unfulfilled another day.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I am going to jump in here. Frankly my rule of thumb is to NEVER write anything down.

I can see her dh being wise in that regard.

OP if you want to work things out with your DH you must talk and not write.

 

[sbell111]

I don't believe the nay sayers on this thread will ever think OP has done enough. Even if her husband tells her he couldn't care less about her and doesn't want to be married, people on here will still think OP didn't do enough. Like I said a few pages back, OP's husband has no intention of changing or trying. OP take hold of your dignity and walk away. Stop listening to the people on this thread. Even if you don't believe it right now, you do deserve better than your DH is willing to give.

I'll only respond to the bit that I've bolded as it is clear that the rest of your post is a projection of your experiences onto the OP's life. Here goes:

The OP clearly loves her husband. Therefore, she should try to fix their problems. For now, that might mean that she'has to put in more than her share of the work. In the end, she will either end up with the marriage that she always wanted or she will absolutely know that divorce was the right thing. Either way, she's better for the effort.

 

[Renesmee]

Can I ask something?

What if the situation I was reversed? What if I got the 3 page note from my DH? What if a week went by, and I had still not responded to the note, in any way, and then I posted telling you I got that e-mail from DH, that I read it late, and didn't bother making the plans he was looking forward to? What would you be telling me? To sit tight, don't respond, because HE should keep trying? He should be the one who comes to talk to me, ignore the letters and the e-mails, because those are not a form of communication at all.

DebInIreland hit the nail on the head. I just have to say, for all of you who are not living this, you have no idea how hard this is for me. It's so easy for you to say go talk to him, but there is no way I can ever explain it so that you can know what this is like. He is a very unique person, you probably don't have anyone in your life you could even try to compare him to. I have an idea, if you have a centerpiece on your table, go talk to it. Try explaining to it that you are not happy, and you need some indication that it really does love you. Ask it questions....after a while of not getting a response, your brain starts to shut down. You just don't have the energy to keep the conversation going. Now, imagine trying to talk to that centerpiece for 14 years. After so many years, you give up. Then after so many years of not bothering, it's hard for you to find you way back to start talking all over again, because you know it is going to be more of the same, oinly this time it is life or death, and even though you are the one that is trying, as unconventional as some seem to think it is, it is at least some type of communication.

I am going to talk to him this morning, now that the lump is gone from my throat that was there last night. I will still go to counseling, but he is the one who is going to pick up the phone and make the appointment. I am not going to do it. I need him to show me something! I need for him to show me he is willing to go out of his comfort zone to save this marriage.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Can I ask something?

What if the situation I was reversed? What if I got the 3 page note from my DH? What if a week went by, and I had still not responded to the note, in any way, and then I posted telling you I got that e-mail from DH, that I read it late, and didn't bother making the plans he was looking forward to? What would you be telling me? To sit tight, don't respond, because HE should keep trying? He should be the one who comes to talk to me, ignore the letters and the e-mails, because those are not a form of communication at all.

DebInIreland hit the nail on the head. I just have to say, for all of you who are not living this, you have no idea how hard this is for me. It's so easy for you to say go talk to him, but there is no way I can ever explain it so that you can know what this is like. He is a very unique person, you probably don't have anyone in your life you could even try to compare him to. I have an idea, if you have a centerpiece on your table, go talk to it. Try explaining to it that you are not happy, and you need some indication that it really does love you. Ask it questions....after a while of not getting a response, your brain starts to shut down. You just don't have the energy to keep the conversation going. Now, imagine trying to talk to that centerpiece for 14 years. After so many years, you give up. Then after so many years of not bothering, it's hard for you to find you way back to start talking all over again, because you know it is going to be more of the same, oinly this time it is life or death, and even though you are the one that is trying, as unconventional as some seem to think it is, it is at least some type of communication.

I am going to talk to him this morning, now that the lump is gone from my throat that was there last night. I will still go to counseling, but he is the one who is going to pick up the phone and make the appointment. I am not going to do it. I need him to show me something! I need for him to show me he is willing to go out of his comfort zone to save this marriage.

I understand what you are saying. And it does take two. However you owe it to yourself to try and talk, no matter if it was your DH writing this or you.

You are not your DH and you need to do what you think that you have to do, not want or wish to do.

To put it in a nutshell, you are 50% of the relationship. Your lack of communication is equal to his silence.

 

[Scurvy]

Can I ask something?

What if the situation I was reversed? What if I got the 3 page note from my DH? What if a week went by, and I had still not responded to the note, in any way, and then I posted telling you I got that e-mail from DH, that I read it late, and didn't bother making the plans he was looking forward to? What would you be telling me? To sit tight, don't respond, because HE should keep trying? He should be the one who comes to talk to me, ignore the letters and the e-mails, because those are not a form of communication at all.

I can only speak for myself. No, I would be suggesting that you reach out to him. This is because I think that you are both at fault for the state your relationship is in. Until very recently you haven't communicated with him, and he still isn't communicating with you. I think that if either one of you was willing to go outside their comfort zone to try to improve the relationship, that's a good thing. It doesn't matter whose "turn" it is.

DebInIreland hit the nail on the head. I just have to say, for all of you who are not living this, you have no idea how hard this is for me. It's so easy for you to say go talk to him, but there is no way I can ever explain it so that you can know what this is like. He is a very unique person, you probably don't have anyone in your life you could even try to compare him to. I have an idea, if you have a centerpiece on your table, go talk to it. Try explaining to it that you are not happy, and you need some indication that it really does love you. Ask it questions....after a while of not getting a response, your brain starts to shut down. You just don't have the energy to keep the conversation going. Now, imagine trying to talk to that centerpiece for 14 years. After so many years, you give up. Then after so many years of not bothering, it's hard for you to find you way back to start talking all over again, because you know it is going to be more of the same, oinly this time it is life or death, and even though you are the one that is trying, as unconventional as some seem to think it is, it is at least some type of communication..

If you've hit the point where you have done all that you are willing to do, then you should give up.

I am going to talk to him this morning, now that the lump is gone from my throat that was there last night. I will still go to counseling, but he is the one who is going to pick up the phone and make the appointment. I am not going to do it. I need him to show me something! I need for him to show me he is willing to go out of his comfort zone to save this marriage.

Frankly, the way your husband sounds, just going to counseling sounds like it would be well outside his comfort zone. But, you know where your line in the sand is. If you have decided that being willing to work on the relationship isn't enough - that he must be the one to call - then that's what you should stick to. But I don't think you should play games with him. You should communicate your requirement clearly. Don't tell him that you want counseling and then assume he'll figure out that he's the one that has to call. Tell him he has to call or you will consider the relationship over by X date. You've let the relationship go for 14 years without communication. And yes, I can see why, but that's the status quo at this point. If you want a change now it's on you to communicate that.

The bottom line is that this is your marriage. Only you can decide at what point you are willing to walk away. When you hit the point that you aren't willing to do anymore, then you should end it. Trying to fix things - going to counseling, communicating with your husband, etc. - might fix things. It might not. If you'd be happier without him that you would be with him, then leave.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

OP, I truly hope you get what you want.

As for those who continue to tell me I'm projecting my personal experience on this matter, isn't that what you are all doing, using your own experiences to give advice? I'll never understand why my advice, from someone who is in a similar situation, should be brushed aside for those who have never experienced this type of relationship. What better qualifies those of you who are happily married and have great communication with your spouses?

Anyway, as I've said before, it's not about me, and it's not about you, it's about OP and what she wants and needs. Whatever it is, I hope she finds it. If she doesn't then I pray she has the strength to follow through on her divorce. And, for the record, I would be thrilled for OP if it all worked the way she wants.

 

[AlleyKat]

As for those who continue to tell me I'm projecting my personal experience on this matter, isn't that what you are all doing, using your own experiences to give advice? I'll never understand why my advice, from someone who is in a similar situation, should be brushed aside for those who have never experienced this type of relationship. What better qualifies those of you who are happily married and have great communication with your spouses?