Elephant in the room....

[ParkHoppers]

Yeah 2 minutes a week is gonna be time,consuming.........not

Could be 2 minutes a day so 14 minutes a week. Buckle your seatbelts. Lol.

 

[Frederic Civish]

Circumventing the rules is a form of cheating. Members waiting until their 11 month window are being negatively effected by walkers. Are they not? As I asked above please tell me how walking is any different than booking a room for early FP booking and then canceling said room just to keep FPs. Disney just put a stop to that because they knew it wasn’t right. Or maybe it’s over money but they still put a stop to people circumventing a rule. Walking is no different even if they haven’t put in a fix yet. There are two sides to the coin. Seems most here only want one side of the coin discused. That wouldn’t be objective. Both sides need a voice. Those walking and those paying the consequences of walking. Way to much coddling each other in here over walking. Those saying walking is fair because everyone has the option to walk are just using basic physiological tricks to make themselves feel better. It’s so transparent. Let’s just call walking what it is.....a form of cheating.....cheating that has not been enforced.......YET.

EVERYONE, including the Walkers, is, "Paying the price for Walking." Why do you think that Walkers walk? It isn't because they decide one morning that they are going to get out of bed and start Walking. It IS because they want, or need a certain date or time or unit. And Walking is the only way to get it. And you have to Walk, in order to 'beat' other Walkers. No one would 'rather' walk. They do it because it is a never ending 'arms race' out there. And it is the only tool they have to increase their chances of satisfying their needs/desires. And that applies even if their desires are just to rent those units out.

How is this different from everyone else? If you don't like to sign on at 11 months and find out that the unit and time you want are already gone, THEN WHY DON'T YOU START WALKING? It is NO violation of 'The Rules' because it isn't in the rules AND EVERYONE CAN DO IT. In fact, Disney specifically designed the ability to do it into their online reservation system.

Now, you COULD indeed say that it MIGHT violate the SPIRIT of the rules regarding 11 month and 7 month windows, but we all know from legal things that the perceived 'spirit' and the actual 'language' in an agreement are two different things. And in a court, it is the language that holds up. There is no language in the agreement that says, "You can walk reservations." But there is also no language that says you can't.

So, I know it is inconvenient. I too want to be able to sign on at 11 months out and get what I want. After all, if I am willing to go to the trouble to make my plans 11 months out, then I should be able to get what I want, right? And also at 7 months out. And while we are at it, 'The Spirit of DVC' as it has been presented and sold to owners, by the DISNEY Cast Members who sold it to them, was that, "Hey, YOU can just go online after 7 months and book anything you want, INCLUDING those really cheap Value rooms at Animal Kingdom Lodges." If there is a 'spirit' that is different from the language, you can lay that right at Disney's feet.

So, again, if you can plan your trips at 11 months out, then why not plan at 12 months out, instead, and then go Walking with everyone else? No one is stopping you. It is only an unfair advantage if it is something that SOME members can do, but others can't.

If you were in an MMA fight and a person who was a Boxer stood up and said, "Hey, no fair. You are violating the Spirit of Boxing. No Kicking, Throws, Arm Bars or Grappling!" You would laugh at such a person. And just because the Boxer perceives that you are violating the rules doesn't mean that you really are violating the rules.

Does it bother you that you can't just sign on and get whatever you want, ANYTIME you want? It bothers me. But that isn't how things are, and I would say that there are two reasons, and neither one is due to Walking.

Reason #1. People are using their points, when they formerly didn't use their points. Think about it, if EVERYONE used ALL of their points, all the time, then EVERY UNIT ON EVERY DAY would be booking out 100%. Which means, of course, that the availability of all the 'Good' units would be gone at 11 months and 7 months. So, almost any 'slack' in the system, that you have been or currently are enjoying, has been coming at the expense of people who let their points expire. Even if people use their points to trade into the Disney Collection, the the Concierge Collection or trade it for a Cruise, that doesn't free up those rooms for the rest of us, because Disney takes those points, books those rooms, and RENTS THEM. Disney also owns 2 to 4 percent of all of the DVC units. But they rent those out, too. So, the question then becomes, "Why are people using their points more?" And there are several answers to that, most of which centers around our increasing use of computers. First, people can book their own reservations online. They can more easily explore options and possibilities online. They don't need to call Member Services and wait on hold to talk to a Cast Member to look things up for them and do things for them. DISNEY made this easy for them by installing the new Membership Reservation System. But this is something that was completely unheard of even 10 years ago. And many people who are NOT computer savvy and who formerly would let points expire now have younger, computer experienced family members who manage that for them. Second part of Reason #1 is that people who aren't using their points are now renting them out, and why not? They are THEIR points that they paid money for, just like you, to do with as THEY please. Does it really matter that they are letting other people use their points, FOR MONEY? Again, the rise of the computer and online information systems have increased the ease and confidence of making reservations for both the Brokers, and the DVC Members who are actually making the reservations. And the ease and transparency of the system is making more and more 'Renters' confident that they can actually do this. And then, we also have the rise of message boards like this, which have been around for decades but are becoming more and more used, and so members can even, easily, rent out their own points with reasonable confidence. Every point rented is one more point that might have been used for their own vacations, but which also might have expired.

Reason #2. Disney either made a mistake, or pulled a fast one by making super expensive 'mega units' at Poly and Copper Creek. A brilliant idea from their point of view. Build 20 or so 'cabins' at Poly, nothing special except for their location. Relatively cheap to build, but there is a lot of profit in selling them, and assign 1/4th of the points at Poly to those cabins, while making them so expensive that 'THE AVERAGE MEMBER DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH YEARLY POINTS TO BOOK THEM FOR 1 NIGHT PER YEAR!' That means that these hyper-expensive units are the last to book, or they don't book at all, and when they don't book at all, when they hit 'Breakage' (60 days?) then Disney rents them out for MORE MONEY. And it IS pretty much pure profit, since WE are paying the maintenance fees on them.. Meanwhile, the owners are now using their points to book other units, at other resorts, at 7 months, putting more stress on the whole system. Making it hard for you to get what you want, and pushing more people towards Walking. Let us sincerely hope that Disney doesn't make this same mistake at Riviera.

 

[ParkHoppers]

EVERYONE, including the Walkers, is, "Paying the price for Walking." Why do you think that Walkers walk? It isn't because they decide one morning that they are going to get out of bed and start Walking. It IS because they want, or need a certain date or time or unit. And Walking is the only way to get it. And you have to Walk, in order to 'beat' other Walkers. No one would 'rather' walk. They do it because it is a never ending 'arms race' out there. And it is the only tool they have to increase their chances of satisfying their needs/desires. And that applies even if their desires are just to rent those units out.

How is this different from everyone else? If you don't like to sign on at 11 months and find out that the unit and time you want are already gone, THEN WHY DON'T YOU START WALKING? It is NO violation of 'The Rules' because it isn't in the rules AND EVERYONE CAN DO IT. In fact, Disney specifically designed the ability to do it into their online reservation system.

Now, you COULD indeed say that it MIGHT violate the SPIRIT of the rules regarding 11 month and 7 month windows, but we all know from legal things that the perceived 'spirit' and the actual 'language' in an agreement are two different things. And in a court, it is the language that holds up. There is no language in the agreement that says, "You can walk reservations." But there is also no language that says you can't.

So, I know it is inconvenient. I too want to be able to sign on at 11 months out and get what I want. After all, if I am willing to go to the trouble to make my plans 11 months out, then I should be able to get what I want, right? And also at 7 months out. And while we are at it, 'The Spirit of DVC' as it has been presented and sold to owners, by the DISNEY Cast Members who sold it to them, was that, "Hey, YOU can just go online after 7 months and book anything you want, INCLUDING those really cheap Value rooms at Animal Kingdom Lodges." If there is a 'spirit' that is different from the language, you can lay that right at Disney's feet.

So, again, if you can plan your trips at 11 months out, then why not plan at 12 months out, instead, and then go Walking with everyone else? No one is stopping you. It is only an unfair advantage if it is something that SOME members can do, but others can't.

If you were in an MMA fight and a person who was a Boxer stood up and said, "Hey, no fair. You are violating the Spirit of Boxing. No Kicking, Throws, Arm Bars or Grappling!" You would laugh at such a person. And just because the Boxer perceives that you are violating the rules doesn't mean that you really are violating the rules.

Does it bother you that you can't just sign on and get whatever you want, ANYTIME you want? It bothers me. But that isn't how things are, and I would say that there are two reasons, and neither one is due to Walking.

Reason #1. People are using their points, when they formerly didn't use their points. Think about it, if EVERYONE used ALL of their points, all the time, then EVERY UNIT ON EVERY DAY would be booking out 100%. Which means, of course, that the availability of all the 'Good' units would be gone at 11 months and 7 months. So, almost any 'slack' in the system, that you have been or are enjoying, has been coming at the expense of people who let their points expire. Even if people use their points to trade into the Disney Collection, the the Concierge Collection or trade it for a cruise, that doesn't free up those rooms for the rest of us, because Disney takes those points, books those rooms, and RENTS THEM. Disney also owns 2 to 4 percent of all of the DVC units. But they rent those out, too. So, the question then becomes, "Why are people using their points more?" And there are several answers to that, most of which centers around our increasing use of computers. First, people can book their own reservations on line. They can more easily explore options and possibilities online. They don't need to call Member Services and wait on hold to talk to a Cast Member to look things up for them and do thing for them. DISNEY made this easy for them by installing the new Membership Reservation System. But this is something that was completely unheard of even 10 years ago. And many people who are NOT computer savvy and who formerly would let points expire now have younger, computer experienced family members who manage that for them. Second part of Reason #1 is that people who aren't using their points are now renting them out, and why not? They are THEIR points that they paid money for, just like you, to do with as THEY please. Again, the rise of the computer and online information systems have increased the ease of making reservations for both the Brokers, and the DVC Members who are actually making the reservations. And the ease and transparency of the system is making more and more 'Renters' confident that they can actually do this. And then, we also have the rise of message boards like this, which have been around for decades but are becoming more and more used, and so members can even, easily, rent out their own point with reasonable confidence. Every point rented is one more point that might have been used for their own vacations, but which also might have expired.

Reason #2. Disney either made a mistake, or pulled a fast one by making super expensive 'mega units' at Poly and Copper Creek. A brilliant idea from their point of view. Build 20 or so 'cabins' at Poly, nothing special except for their location, and assign 1/4th of the points at Poly to those cabins, while making them so expensive that 'THE AVERAGE MEMBER DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ENOUGH YEARLY POINTS TO BOOK THEM FOR 1 NIGHT PER YEAR!' That means that these hyper-expensive units are the last to book, or they don't book at all, and when they don't book at all, then Disney rents them out for MORE MONEY. Meanwhile, the owners are now using their points to book other units, at other resorts, at 7 months, putting more stress on the whole system. Let us sincerely hope that Disney doesn't make this same mistake at Riviera.

Agreed with a lot of what you wrote. Like I said in another post I,m warming up to walking.

 

[crvetter]

Agreed with a lot of what you wrote. Like I said in another post I,m warming up to walking.

But why? Did you have a change of heart and think it’s not gaming the system? Or do you feel it’s still gaming the system but just don’t want to be shut out?

Curious what your view is.

 

[cruisin5]

Right. I now understand the home resort timeframe is safe( duh on my part). For non resort 7 month window I could walk up to 4 months before the 7 month so as not to overlap the home 11 month window. Hope that’s right. The 11 month window is like a firewall stopping those walking the 7 month window from going any further than a day before the 11 month window.....no I,m not looking for a loophole. I,m not that good of an actor......or am I

No, only the only people who can walk at 11 months are the owners of the resort. You can only walk your non-home resort at 7 months, benefits of such are questionable as an owner who could have booked 4 months ago can ruin your walk.

ETA ... walking require points and an understanding of borrowing in order to bank. This is where one who has more points has an advantage. Think of it as a "deposit".

 

[ParkHoppers]

But why? Did you have a change of heart and think it’s not gaming the system? Or do you feel it’s still gaming the system but just don’t want to be shut out?

Curious what your view is.

I think it is circumventing the rules. I don’t think it was absolutely necessary to have been started in the first place. I have been around here quite a while even if I don’t always post. From the beginning of walking the conversation has been quite one sided. People got so comfortable they were calling people dumb if they didn’t walk. It was just too much IMO. I saw people against walking over the years give into doing it as to not lose out. They did it but didn’t glorify and promote it. Some even said they held their nose but will walk. Why did people first say no then yes to walking if there is nothing at all wrong with walking. There is definitely something there. Why do people get so defensive when someone talks negatively about walking. Why? There is something there underneath. And what ever that feeling is gets them extra defensive. So let’s not ignore the emotional factor with walking and it’s disussions. It’s a hot button topic for a reason.
As to your original question yes I still believe it’s gaming the system and if I brought my complaints to DVD over time and they did nothing about walking I might walk to not get shutout. I know I wouldn’t act like I was squeaky clean if I did walk.

 

[ParkHoppers]

No, only the only people who can walk at 11 months are the owners of the resort. You can only walk your non-home resort at 7 months, benefits of such are questionable as an owner who could have booked 4 months ago can ruin your walk.

ETA ... walking require points and an understanding of borrowing in order to bank. This is where one who has more points has an advantage. Think of it as a "deposit".

You can walk the 7 month window between 7 and 11 but a home owner could undo your walk. Got it.

 

[cruisin5]

Frederic Civish... a billion gazillion likes for your post.

 

[cruisin5]

You can walk between 7 and 11 but an owner could undo your walk. Got it.

No. A home resort owner can walk their home resort at 11 months. They are only jumping ahead of other owners at that same resort.

A non-home resort owner can only walk a non-home resort 7 months, but while they are walking an owner at that resort who has the 11 month advantage but who didn't plan sooner can jump in and ruin the walk.

 

[ParkHoppers]

No. A home resort owner can walk their home resort at 11 months. They are only jumping ahead of other owners at that same resort.

A non-home resort owner can only walk a non-home resort 7 months, but while they are walking an owner at that resort who has the 11 month advantage but who didn't plan sooner can jump in and ruin the walk.

Sorry having a bumpy night. I understand.

 

[ILoveMyDVC]

Not liking the inevitable 'bots' logging in to grab rooms by walking to put up for the highest bidder. I will welcome any rules that stop the nonsense.

 

[crvetter]

Not liking the inevitable 'bots' logging in to grab rooms by walking to put up for the highest bidder. I will welcome any rules that stop the nonsense.

Bots would be easily identifiable and Disney could ban people that use those. It’s a bit more apples and oranges. Banning those and punishing people that use them isn’t hindering everyone else in any way. Which is the common concern I have seen expressed when walking fixes are presented.

Also I don’t see a bot being sold because no DVC Owner that makes it would sell it because it would destroy there advantage. And an external actor just wouldn’t have the financial motive to do it. Plus it’s really dependent on who’s computer can communicate fastest. So a bot gives a marginal advantage (saves time) to automate modifications which as it stands is very easy.

 

[Bearval]

I think it is circumventing the rules. I don’t think it was absolutely necessary to have been started in the first place. I have been around here quite a while even if I don’t always post. From the beginning of walking the conversation has been quite one sided. People got so comfortable they were calling people dumb if they didn’t walk. It was just too much IMO. I saw people against walking over the years give into doing it as to not lose out. They did it but didn’t glorify and promote it. Some even said they held their nose but will walk. Why did people first say no then yes to walking if there is nothing at all wrong with walking. There is definitely something there. Why do people get so defensive when someone talks negatively about walking. Why? There is something there underneath. And what ever that feeling is gets them extra defensive. So let’s not ignore the emotional factor with walking and it’s disussions. It’s a hot button topic for a reason.
As to your original question yes I still believe it’s gaming the system and if I brought my complaints to DVD over time and they did nothing about walking I might walk to not get shutout. I know I wouldn’t act like I was squeaky clean if I did walk.

DVD just made it so easy to walk now that people who would not feel comfortable calling all of the time to do their walk can now just update it themselves every 6 days. The problem will come to a head when everyone starts walking months ahead whether they really had to or not. This will cause a lot of people picking up single days as they get dropped then calling DVD to make it one reservation. Walking is gonna get worse and eventually DVD will do something about it. I never considered walking but I will now and I am sure I am not the only one.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

DVD just made it so easy to walk now that people who would not feel comfortable calling all of the time to do their walk can now just update it themselves every 6 days. The problem will come to a head when everyone starts walking months ahead whether they really had to or not. This will cause a lot of people picking up single days as they get dropped then calling DVD to make it one reservation. Walking is gonna get worse and eventually DVD will do something about it. I never considered walking but I will now and I am sure I am not the only one.

And what are you planning on walking? SSR standard view? Part of the thing with these discussions is that it becomes an OMG - walking has to be done. And people read this. And it doesn't have to be done. 99% of the rooms it would just be an waste of time.

Frankly - walking doesn't have to be done but can be done if someone feels they need to guarantee a particular room. I've known about walking since forever and there really still isn't a room I feel I have to have that is going to make me spend the time walking for months. First, it isn't necessary and second - I'll book something else. So no, even when people know about the processes it doesn't mean they will do it.

 

[ParkHoppers]

DVD just made it so easy to walk now that people who would not feel comfortable calling all of the time to do their walk can now just update it themselves every 6 days. The problem will come to a head when everyone starts walking months ahead whether they really had to or not. This will cause a lot of people picking up single days as they get dropped then calling DVD to make it one reservation. Walking is gonna get worse and eventually DVD will do something about it. I never considered walking but I will now and I am sure I am not the only one.

You should walk if you want. More and more are doing it so enjoy the ride. Like you said it will eventually reach critical mass at which point DVD will probably do something about it. The other thing I find interesting is those who glorified and promoted walking now trying to talk you and others out of walking. Not really much of an advantage actually. Doesn’t really need to be done. Quite the case study in human physiology. My guess with walking would be once people start it’s more of a what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Just because a small number only use walking when it’s absolutely needed doesn’t mean the majority of walkers will take this approach. This is the problem with most loopholes that get publicized online. There inevitably spin out of control.

 

[Bearval]

You should walk if you want. More and more are doing it so enjoy the ride. Like you said it will eventually reach critical mass at which point DVD will probably do something about. The other thing I find interesting is those who glorified and promoted walking now trying to talk you and others out of walking. Not really much of an advantage actually. Doesn’t really need to be done. Quite the case study in human physiology. My guess with walking would be once people start it’s more of a what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Just because a small number only use walking when it’s absolutely needed doesn’t mean the majority of walkers will take this approach. This is the problem with most loopholes that get publicized online. There inevitably spin out of control.

I hope more and more people walk so we do meet critical mass to force DVC to do something about it.

 

[ParkHoppers]

I hope more and more people walk so we do meet critical mass to force DVC to do something about it.

With FOMO at an all time high in today’s society I will guarantee you more and more people are walking.

 

[CarolMN]

I hope more and more people walk so we do meet critical mass to force DVC to do something about it.

Be careful what you wish for. I can almost guarantee that the "cure" will be worse than the "disease".

 

[Pooh12863]

With FOMO at an all time high in today’s society I will guarantee you more and more people are walking.

I see your point, I’ve changed my mind. It’s almost time to start my walk for Halloween 2020.

 

[ziravan]

You should walk if you want. More and more are doing it so enjoy the ride. Like you said it will eventually reach critical mass at which point DVD will probably do something about it. The other thing I find interesting is those who glorified and promoted walking now trying to talk you and others out of walking. Not really much of an advantage actually. Doesn’t really need to be done. Quite the case study in human physiology. My guess with walking would be once people start it’s more of a what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Just because a small number only use walking when it’s absolutely needed doesn’t mean the majority of walkers will take this approach. This is the problem with most loopholes that get publicized online. There inevitably spin out of control.

Nobody was trying to talk them out of walking but merely stating the obvious:

There are only a very small subset of rooms where it matters.

If somebody here wants to walk a March AKV standard studio for 3 months, by all means do so. Just because it’s pointed out that that’s a complete waste of time doesn’t mean that walking is being discouraged.

Walking is a tool, one out of many. But like any tool, it’s only useful for what it’s designed to accomplish: securing rooms at 11 months where supply at that time exceeds demand. That’s a very few rooms.

Walking isn’t a hammer and every room isn’t a nail. Just because someone points out that a tool isn’t useful for what you’re trying to accomplish isn’t some grand moral proof that the person giving the advice knows deep in their heart that the tool is immoral. It probably just means that a specialty tool useful in a few applications probably isn’t the best tool to bang in every nail.