ECV usage discussion.....

[BillSears]

...If only there were a flag you could hold up to show that there's someone waiting, you know? ...

It wasn't that the bus drivers didn't know I was there. The problem was when the wheelchairs/EVCs are run through the regular line then wait once they reach the front and the double loading of buses. When I entered the line there were no ECVs waiting at the front. Once I reached the front there were 4 in front of me. Then they started double loading buses and the double load buses won't load wheelchairs/ECVs. Between all of that every single person in line left and I was alone at the stop. Now that's not too bad if I was near the end of the line but there were 4 full buses of people behind me who left before I did.

I got to have a nice conversation with the Transportation person that night. She was nice enough to hang out for me while we waited about 15 minutes for a bus.

 

[joelkfla]

I have also seen bus after bus come without the ability to board an ECV...and it really angers me. It's not fair. Once in awhile? Fine. But not as often as I've seen it happen.

Were they the leased (non-Disney) buses that are used at peak times?

All Disney buses are wheelchair-accessible. Except for the few RTS (old high-floor) buses with the hydraulic lifts that are still in service, every bus has a fold-out ramp that can be worked by hand if the motor fails, unless something is drastically wrong (like a cracked hinge), in which case the bus is usually removed from service. A major ramp problem is very rare.

Every Disney bus has at least 2 tie-down positions. I've never seen a bus where both positions are unusable, and most times if even one is not usable the bus is removed from service (unless we have a shortage of available buses.)

The only other thing I can think of that would make a bus completely unable to load wheelchairs would be a problem with the kneeling system. Some of the new articulated (bend in the middle) buses would not take wheelchairs for a while because Disney though the operation of the kneeling system was unsafe, but I think that has been fixed now. Other than that, a problem that would make the bus unable to kneel would also be very rare, and usually result in it being pulled from service.

 

[joelkfla]

Then they started double loading buses and the double load buses won't load wheelchairs/ECVs. Between all of that every single person in line left and I was alone at the stop. Now that's not too bad if I was near the end of the line but there were 4 full buses of people behind me who left before I did.

The thinking is that loading 2 buses at once should take only marginally more time than loading a single bus. If you accept that assumption, an ECV user would be loaded in about the same time as if buses were being loaded one at a time, while the non-ECV passengers would get cleared out in half the time. So although more Guests were loaded before you, your wait time should have been about the same.

Now if they ran out of available buses before you were loaded, or if they placed a non-accessible bus on the inside so that neither bus could accept wheelchairs -- well, that's just poor management of resources, and you're right to complain.

I would also agree that they should have discontinued double loading when there were less than 2 full busloads in the queue and at the same time wheelchairs waiting -- but then I don't make the rules.

 

[Disneylover99]

It wasn't that the bus drivers didn't know I was there. The problem was when the wheelchairs/EVCs are run through the regular line then wait once they reach the front and the double loading of buses. When I entered the line there were no ECVs waiting at the front. Once I reached the front there were 4 in front of me. Then they started double loading buses and the double load buses won't load wheelchairs/ECVs. Between all of that every single person in line left and I was alone at the stop. Now that's not too bad if I was near the end of the line but there were 4 full buses of people behind me who left before I did.

I got to have a nice conversation with the Transportation person that night. She was nice enough to hang out for me while we waited about 15 minutes for a bus.

Ughh....that's terrible. I really feel that ECV riders should be given as much priority as possible so that they can get to and from the parks consistently within a reasonable amount of time.

I do take issue with hoards of family and friends who get on with ECV riders though. I understand and agree with the limit of six, but everyone else should get in line IMO.

Last year I went to Disney with my sister who has been in a wheelchair most of her life. She had an ECV and relied on the Disney buses to get her to and from the parks. She was travelling with a friend and I was with my husband and two children, so altogether we were a party of six. We are rope drop people and she is not, so we just met up at the parks and she took the bus with her friend later in the day.

We were actually only on the same bus once, late one evening coming home from a park and the lines were huge. She was being loaded onto the bus as we were getting in line. We didn't even realize it was her until her friend saw us and was waving us over. Well, I couldn't do it. It didn't feel right to me bypassing all those people in line. So we waited. Luckily two more buses pulled up a few minutes later, so it was no big deal.

Maybe I said this on the other thread. But I really feel bus drivers should make every effort to get the maximum number of ECV riders on buses. It's the family and friends who should be limited.

 

[MPB82]

I have an issue. You are at disney not a hospital so you aren't in dire need. You are on vacation/holiday just like me. Can't you wait at the end and when you get to the point where you will board that bus you go first? Instead of a line of 25 people and then You get on before thm all? And before you say it, i know you would rather not be on the ECV as I would rather be in first class then coach, but why do you, who showed up after me, deserve to board first instead of just boarding before the people on the bus you would be on without the ECV?

 

[SteveMouse]

I have an issue. You are at disney not a hospital so you aren't in dire need. You are on vacation/holiday just like me. Can't you wait at the end and when you get to the point where you will board that bus you go first? Instead of a line of 25 people and then You get on before thm all? And before you say it, i know you would rather not be on the ECV as I would rather be in first class then coach, but why do you, who showed up after me, deserve to board first instead of just boarding before the people on the bus you would be on without the ECV?

I wouldn't equate using an ECV with first class, but that's pretty irrelevant.

If you want to go down the path then when I, on an ECV, get to the front of the line, whenever I get to the front, no one behind me should be allowed to pass, regardless of the number of people already on the bus because to let anyone else advance is not treating people with disabilities as equal, which is the goal of the ADA. (While I don't like it very much, I can appreciate that Disney may need to limit the number of people on a ride who would need extra assistance in evacuation and firmly believe that Disney could design rides to increase the capacity for those needing wheelchair accessible ride vehicles. There is not a safety issue with the queue.)

 

[goofy4tink]

Were they the leased (non-Disney) buses that are used at peak times?

All Disney buses are wheelchair-accessible. Except for the few RTS (old high-floor) buses with the hydraulic lifts that are still in service, every bus has a fold-out ramp that can be worked by hand if the motor fails, unless something is drastically wrong (like a cracked hinge), in which case the bus is usually removed from service. A major ramp problem is very rare.

Every Disney bus has at least 2 tie-down positions. I've never seen a bus where both positions are unusable, and most times if even one is not usable the bus is removed from service (unless we have a shortage of available buses.)

The only other thing I can think of that would make a bus completely unable to load wheelchairs would be a problem with the kneeling system. Some of the new articulated (bend in the middle) buses would not take wheelchairs for a while because Disney though the operation of the kneeling system was unsafe, but I think that has been fixed now. Other than that, a problem that would make the bus unable to kneel would also be very rare, and usually result in it being pulled from service.

Twice it was a kneeling issue. Once it was that there was one ECV on board already, and the couple wanted to stay together. I have seen a lift issue, but it was quite awhile ago.

I have an issue. You are at disney not a hospital so you aren't in dire need. You are on vacation/holiday just like me. Can't you wait at the end and when you get to the point where you will board that bus you go first? Instead of a line of 25 people and then You get on before thm all? And before you say it, i know you would rather not be on the ECV as I would rather be in first class then coach, but why do you, who showed up after me, deserve to board first instead of just boarding before the people on the bus you would be on without the ECV?

Pretty much because Disney has to adhere to rules. I believe, and joelkfla can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe state law says they have to be boarded first. And if an able bodied guest is sitting in an ECV designated seat, and it's needed for an ECV? That person, or people, will be asked to move, even if they have to stand.
If ECVs were boarded, in the regular line, with everyone else, it could be chaotic and actually take longer. Lets not forget, they're still sitting there long after you're off that bus.

 

[keishashadow]

There is signage at each stop 'asking' that only 6 (I think that's the number) people board with the guest using an ECV. Airs usually not a huge issue, but I have seen it happen a few times. And that's my issue...it's aggravating to stand and wait, when someone just rolls up, with their group of 10, and they all board the bus. I have seen it happen primarily in the morning, for park opening.
Like I said, it isn't a common occurrence, but it does happen. And that's when you see comments being made. But....in the big picture? What's an addtl 15 mins waiting for a bus going to do? Just relax and be glad you're waiting for a bus at WDW vs the T in Boston!

will have to look, I never noticed the signs. We usually rent a car but wind up taking buses to the parks a portion of our stay. If taking internal transportation we make sure to depart before the hectic park closing times. So many in such a big rush, would think it has to be difficult for those in an ECV to navigate.

 

[BillSears]

The thinking is that loading 2 buses at once should take only marginally more time than loading a single bus. If you accept that assumption, an ECV user would be loaded in about the same time as if buses were being loaded one at a time, while the non-ECV passengers would get cleared out in half the time. So although more Guests were loaded before you, your wait time should have been about the same.

Now if they ran out of available buses before you were loaded, or if they placed a non-accessible bus on the inside so that neither bus could accept wheelchairs -- well, that's just poor management of resources, and you're right to complain.

I would also agree that they should have discontinued double loading when there were less than 2 full busloads in the queue and at the same time wheelchairs waiting -- but then I don't make the rules.

Yea, they did run out of available buses before I was loaded. But they also ran out of people. Everyone else left and I was alone at the stop.

I hate to pull the equal access thing but for all of the people complaining about wheelchairs/ECVs loading first and that is not equal access think about double loading. That is intentionally leaving wheelchair/ECV users out of the boarding process. I agree double loading is sometimes needed to clear the crowds at closing time but I've run into double loading at the resorts and been left behind because I could not board the first or second(double loader) bus.

Anyway...we all have stories where things don't go our way but I still think Disney is trying their best to satisfy everyone.

 

[joelkfla]

Pretty much because Disney has to adhere to rules. I believe, and joelkfla can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe state law says they have to be boarded first.

I don't know that it's a law, but just Disney policy for safety & courtesy.

First, as you said, we don't have to ask other Guests to move out of the ADA seats, plus the seats for the ECV occupant to transfer to.

Second, the ECV's are easiest to get into the spaces by old-fashioned parallel parking, putting Guests sitting near the ADA seats at risk of getting their toes run over or their knees knocked. It seems that the majority of ECV users at Disney are using one for the first time, with no training. Besides, the ECV's are not that easy to control precisely even with experience.

Third, the aisles around and forward of the ADA spaces have to be clear of Guests, strollers, whatever to make room to maneuver the ECV's. Sometimes Guests lugging around a double stroller are not very happy when asked to move to the front of the bus or up the stairs to the back.

Fourth, it's safer for the driver strapping in the mobility device. On more than one occasion, I've been kicked or tripped over by kids who suddenly decided they wanted to change seats.

We do have to load or unload ECV's and wheelchairs with a nearly full bus at resorts with multiple stops. It's the driver's decision as to whether the bus is too full to load one safely, and sometimes I've changed the order of stops to get some Guests off the bus before unloading one. But it's easier all around when the bus is empty.

 

[Ladygoldenhair]

As a wheelchair user my experiences are similar to Ladygoldenhair's.

I usually travel with small groups. The largest I've ever boarded a bus with was 4 people and 2 of us were on wheels. I do think there should be some limit on boarding but it's a tough call where to cut it off. But please do not hold back on boarding and wait for the next bus. If you do that then you can start getting a cascade of wheelchairs/ECVs begind you who can't board because you now are taking up the tie down space.

First on but also last off. So while many people complain about getting on first they forget that I'm still waiting to get off when they are already off and on the way to the gate.

I've been left behind at the bus stop plenty of times. If I arrive just as the bus is boarding I'm usually left behind even if the bus isn't full. Again it's the first on thing, most drivers won't load a wheelchair once boarding has begun. I've also been the 3rd ECV/wheelchair in line so while the bus wasn't full it was full to wheelchair users and I was left behind.

My worst time was leaving EPCOT. I finally made it to the front of the line and then watched 4 bus loads of people who were behind me in line leave before I was able to board a bus. That night I was alone at the bus stop after everyone else in line had departed at the end of the night and I was still waiting for a tie down spot on a bus. Here is a thread I started about that night: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2583052

Overall I think Disney does what it can with the resources it has. Sometimes I get ahead of the person who is at the end of the line, sometimes I get left behind, and most of the time we all travel on the same bus.

Bill,
I had forgotten I read your experience some time ago. But, the emotional impact it had traveling hit home when it happen to us. It's a long day, I can see moving crowds, but, if you break up the ECV users, do it in plain sight.

At least if are seen by those boarding they can judge a fair pace of the line to which bus you normally would be on and board the next one. I don't ever mind waiting for a next bus, but after the third to the fourth .....it's been a long tiring day on the party, lots of anxiety waiting, being overlooked, but the worse is the patronizing attitude from many of those moving the line along.

There has been no compassion to the plight of being bypassed by bus after bus. This can be done fairly, but get the devices out of the main stream. It Just has become so much easier now to lift and carry for a car then to roll up on the bus.

It's really getting more difficult to get up the ramp to the monorail too so limited to the Ferry now. Oh dear, the strollers enter with the wheel chairs in the gate, but you have strapping men with huge double joggers making a sprint cutting us off. Then the teens started running for any place to fit through.

Buy the time I'm on the ferry there is no where to sit when just dying to.

 

[Ladygoldenhair]

I have an issue. You are at disney not a hospital so you aren't in dire need. You are on vacation/holiday just like me. Can't you wait at the end and when you get to the point where you will board that bus you go first? Instead of a line of 25 people and then You get on before thm all? And before you say it, i know you would rather not be on the ECV as I would rather be in first class then coach, but why do you, who showed up after me, deserve to board first instead of just boarding before the people on the bus you would be on without the ECV?

I respect your thoughts. This is not directed toward you.

I gladly wait if my party rolls up as loading is going on, we always wait. I can't ever recall that a driver stopped boarding and let us on? Unless the bus stop was nearly empty and I don't recall that order. It's just generally that we are waiting along with everyone else. Unless you mean you waited 10 minutes and we arrived after your ten minute wait? Even though everyone will fit, we should wait for the next bus?

However, my experience of waiting almost an hour and to get to the point a driver sees our party with an ECV or chair means/meant we then waited an additional three more buses to the fourth one. After waiting the entire queue, we should have been on the next bus.
Not being held, long after the people in the queue with us were gone.

Oh, the night this happened, the couple standing in front of us open the chain for my small group to get out to the curb when we finally arrived at a boarding point...We got thrown out to go back to the end of the line until the assisting family convinced the person we had waited. I was in tears as he told me I was a liar..... And he put others on ahead of us much to their cries that we were next. The Dad was just being kind and felt so bad.

If I have older kids with me they stand...but not until the bus is loaded and someone needs the seat otherwise the older kids and teens will grab the open seat. They stand every full bus we are on.

Oh, Maybe I am not happy of the joggers to get in line. Because I have those with wheels it takes longer to reach the stop, not faster, they are not popping wheelies as the other kids ran ahead and got in line, running in front of us. Isn't that the same?
No our party will never run.

Example- I was walking with a cane after knee surgery to a check out in Walmart. A lady to my rear didn't like how slow my progress was so she whipped around and got in line ahead of me. I was three feet; a shopping length cart away from the cashier. I told her I was excuse me, but believed I was next in the line, just slower reaching the register. Flipping out on me she stated she had a disabled son and was going to punch me out....what is wrong with the world, what's the hurry?

Ugh, sorry for typos or grammar, I should have gone to bed. But we are planning a trip and I really would not want to deal with un magical people so it's a sore spot reopened.

 

[goofy4tink]

This is the signage at WL. Yep, I'm the idiot you see taking really obscure photos...but they do seem to come in handy!!!!

 

[lylone]

Last December when Hollywood Studios closed for a "special event" we saw an issue with ECVs boarding and then "family" boarding with them. 2 ECVS on and then after all the "family" got on the bus was mostly full! This is after watching the "family" grow and hearing people say "hey we have an ECV you can board with us and be part of our family".

We didn't get to board that bus and were towards the front of the line. We didn't say anything...but WHOA did some others behind us speak up and show their anger.
I have never seen such an uprising in a bus queue line!

After seeing all the commotion, we got out of line and caught a taxi instead. It wasn't worth being in the middle of a brawl.

The best $15 we spent to get away from the chaos!

 

[goofy4tink]

Last December when Hollywood Studios closed for a "special event" we saw an issue with ECVs boarding and then "family" boarding with them. 2 ECVS on and then after all the "family" got on the bus was mostly full! This is after watching the "family" grow and hearing people say "hey we have an ECV you can board with us and be part of our family". We didn't get to board that bus and were towards the front of the line. We didn't say anything...but WHOA did some others behind us speak up and show their anger. I have never seen such an uprising in a bus queue line! After seeing all the commotion, we got out of line and caught a taxi instead. It wasn't worth being in the middle of a brawl. The best $15 we spent to get away from the chaos!

I've seen this happen as well. And people wonder why some guests get upset when they see an ECV rider, with family, come rolling up. It's too bad though because the majority if ECV users are polite and cause no issues.

 

[Disneylover99]

This is the signage at WL. Yep, I'm the idiot you see taking really obscure photos...but they do seem to come in handy!!!!

Thank you for posting this. I've never noticed any of these signs before.

 

[goofy4tink]

Thank you for posting this. I've never noticed any of these signs before.

It would seem that you aren't alone!!! They aren't all that 'in your face'...besides, who is stopping to read a sign when they already know where they're going? They probably don't think the signage applies to them.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Any large group might get split up. If a group of 10 hits the boarding point and the bus has space for 5, not everyone will fit.

Just for my clarity. Bill, is the outside bus in double loading no accessible because of the way they are positioned and no space to get your wheels to the accessible door?

I do have a pet peeve with bus loading . . . The family that boards early, grabs seats up front and the proceeds to block the aisle so standees can't get to the back.

 

[CPT Tripss]

JMO, I have no idea of how ADA regulations apply, Disney shouldn't have to remove the bus in the middle of a day. The bus should be pulled for repair the next day the shop is open. I don't know if the shop is open Sunday (or even Saturday). Disney should have enough parts, including extra lifts, so it can be fixed the next working day.

Mears uses alternate buses, as available and as needed during peak periods. I don't think all of those buses have lifts.

I've never experienced the kinds of "abuse" being mentioned in these threads. It sounds like the kinds of abuse which occurs when extended famlies try to take advantage of disability pre-booarding on planes.

I'm certain that buses get pulled from service in the middle of a day for a whole host of reasons.

 

[mrsksomeday]

http://s26.photobucket.com/user/goofy4tink/media/021-1.jpg.html

This is the signage at WL. Yep, I'm the idiot you see taking really obscure photos...but they do seem to come in handy!!!!

I have seen similar signs at Pop Century and Boardwalk Resort. My significant other uses a power wheelchair and we have had the same experiences at Epcot that Bill Sears had.