DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

Its why I think it will make it hard for owners who own individually but jointly, which includes a lot of the big time players out there who obviously found a way around DVC's old policies.

There is language that speaks to this in the original OKW POS and I’ll look it up later today. I remember being surprised when I read it. I think it said something to the effect that it’s your accounts, any accounts your name is on (I’m assuming they mean associate members here), plus any LLC that you or your family own. I was surprised by the word “family” but maybe that’s to prevent someone from claiming that the LLC belongs to a spouse.

 

[Sandisw]

I feel like everyone is severely overthinking this.

They’re not gonna care what you got for your points. They’re gonna assume a number like 18 to 20 and use that per resort to assume a percentage. Probably somewhere between 33 and 50% depending on WDW resort. May be higher for vero or HH. Then they use a simple AI job to filter out false positives like three reservations for the same time with one of them having the owners name. after that, they simply kick all the ones that rent more than the percentage to the review department.

Once it gets to a human review they can toss the ones that look kosher , and the owner will never know. anything that looks like a commercial account they send a demand letter for more details.

The simplest process is usually the most effective.

I don’t think they’re gonna worry to the dollar. I think they’re using it as a guideline to say anything that Might Be in excess is commercial. Especially if it happens multiple years in a row.

I will add one thing...I would be surprised to see metrics based on resort, even VB, because there are a lot of owners who own at several resorts, and this applies to everything you own.

But, beyond that, yes, once it gets reviewed, they can decide if what was flagged still looks suspcious or not...for example, if an owner has reservations in the names of others at the same time they are going, they may decide that year to say, this looks okay.

On the other hand, they may decide its not okay after a few years, because it could be seen as an owner trying to skirt the rules by keeping their names on it.

Which is why I have the mindset that I am responsbile for me and using my membership appropriately and making sure I do.

And, as an owner, I am happy that it appears that DVC did what they are required to do, set reasonable standards on what flips an owners use of renting from personal to commerical.

 

[Sandisw]

There is language that speaks to this in the original OKW POS and I’ll look it up later today. I remember being surprised when I read it. I think it said something to the effect that it’s your accounts, any accounts your name is on (I’m assuming they mean associate members here), plus any LLC that you or your family own. I was surprised by the word “family” but maybe that’s to prevent someone from claiming that the LLC belongs to a spouse.

Some of the other resorts are even more direct in the way that this is stated....bascially, as an owner, you are not allowed to be connected in to more than 8000 points.

Even using the broadest metric that rental income is twice dues, then at most an owner can be tied to 4000 points in rentals....and, as I said, when contracts are jointly owned, each owner is responsbile for the whole amount of dues...its not divided.

If I am tied to accounts with other owners, the actions of those owners can still impact me, even if their actions are on accounts that I have nothing to do with....and that is because the dues we pay for our jointly owned points apply to each individually and together.

And, with those LLC's, DVC has the added language on who those guests can be and it will be on the company to prove to DVC they are not renting to those who don't qualify if DVC reviews and feels they are....

 

[Tatebeck]

I will add one thing...I would be surprised to set metrics based on resort, even VB, because there are a lot of owners who own at several resorts, and this applies to everything you own.

But, beyond that, yes, once it gets reviewed, they can decide if what was flagged still looks suspcious or not...for example, if an owner has reservations in the names of others at the same time they are going, they may decide that year to say, this looks okay.

On the other hand, they may decide its not okay after a few years, because it could be seen as an owner trying to skirt the rules by keeping their names on it.

Which is why I have the mindset that I am responsbile for me and using my membership appropriately and making sure I do.

And, as an owner, I am happy that it appears that DVC did what they are required to do, set reasonable standards on what flips an owners use of renting from personal to commerical.

As far as resort, I think they just meant that they will have to check your personal dues number based on how many points you own at each resort, since some resorts have significantly different dues numbers that can change the assumed $ amount you can get from rentals before being considered commercial.

 

[mkatsy]

Some of the other resorts are even more direct in the way that this is stated....bascially, as an owner, you are not allowed to be connected in to more than 8000 points.

Even using the broadest metric that rental income is twice dues, then at most an owner can be tied to 4000 points in rentals....and, as I said, when contracts are jointly owned, each owner is responsbile for the whole amount of dues...its not divided.

If I am tied to accounts with other owners, the actions of those owners can still impact me, even if their actions are on accounts that I have nothing to do with....and that is because the dues we pay for our jointly owned points apply to each individually and together.

And, with those LLC's, DVC has the added language on who those guests can be and it will be on the company to prove to DVC they are not renting to those who don't qualify if DVC reviews and feels they are....

This could end up affecting some of these brokers who have their own family points that they have had for years, when added to the LLC’s that they may be listed on at work.

 

[Mouseforward]

I will add one thing...I would be surprised to see metrics based on resort, even VB, because there are a lot of owners who own at several resorts, and this applies to everything you own.

But, beyond that, yes, once it gets reviewed, they can decide if what was flagged still looks suspcious or not...for example, if an owner has reservations in the names of others at the same time they are going, they may decide that year to say, this looks okay.

On the other hand, they may decide its not okay after a few years, because it could be seen as an owner trying to skirt the rules by keeping their names on it.

Which is why I have the mindset that I am responsbile for me and using my membership appropriately and making sure I do.

And, as an owner, I am happy that it appears that DVC did what they are required to do, set reasonable standards on what flips an owners use of renting from personal to commerical.

I do feel they may at least look at Walt Disney World, Disneyland, and the beach resorts differently. Even if it’s just for future tracking purposes.

But you’re right they’re initially not gonna get that precise, because they would probably swamp their review team with just the 100% to 90% of points renters. So I don’t know if they’re gonna initially even look at the ones between 50 and 55%.

I would also assume their AI algorithm would prioritize easily available data such as percentage of name changes on reservations for the top 10 most popular periods. I assume a renter’s account would look like they go to every road race and magical beginnings and holiday.

A would also assume they have access to our DVC discount data from the parks, it would look kind of funny if an owner has 4000 points used each year and yet has never checked into a park, made a reservation, or purchased at the stores with the discount.

Anyway, we all get to sit back and grab our popcorn and watch for the Facebook freak outs!

Would it be too cruel to start a thread once they start happening?

 

[Sandisw]

This could end up affecting some of these brokers who have their own family points that they have had for years, when added to the LLC’s that they may be listed on at work.

That is what I believe and why personally, I think that this metric makes a lot of sense to get at those owners who they really wanted to target....

Again, we know that there will be owners out there who have clearly skirted the rules for years who have already started to plan ways around it....

There certainly are going to be owners who may have been renting for more than dues, but not to a high level, that will be impacted by this....but, it seems hard not to agree that the decision is a fair one for the membership as a whole and in line with why one should own DVC....vacations.

I look at it like the removal of allowing owners with multple memberships an exception to transfer between ones they own more than once....DVC took that away and now every owner is held to the same standard.

Obviously, someone like me with three memberships is impacted by that decision...although I rarely transferred...but again, can't argue against it, because for the membership, as a whole, it makes sense.

 

[Sandisw]

I do feel they may at least look at Walt Disney World, Disneyland, and the beach resorts differently. Even if it’s just for future tracking purposes.

But you’re right they’re initially not gonna get that precise, because they would probably swamp their review team with just the 100% to 90% of points renters. So I don’t know if they’re gonna initially even look at the ones between 50 and 55%.

I would also assume their AI algorithm would prioritize easily available data such as percentage of name changes on reservations for the top 10 most popular periods. I assume a renter’s account would look like they go to every road race and magical beginnings and holiday.

A word also assume they have access to our DVC discount data from the parks, it would look kind of funny if an owner has 4000 points used each year and yet has never checked into a park, made a reservation, or purchased at the stores with the discount.

Anyway, we all get to sit back and grab our popcorn and watch for the Facebook freak outs!

Would it be too cruel to start a thread once they start happening?

OMG...that just made me laugh....hey, anyone who didn't understand that the definition of what turns one into a commerical purpose can be changed, only has themselves to blame.

I get that many of us bought with the 2008 policy in place, and many have followed that...which is why I have a feeling owners will be given fair warning about changing tactics.

One thing is for sure, and DVC knows it, that the information is getting out there, and that is making owners think twice about the level they are renting, and I bet there is some expectation, even on DVC's part that things will change simiply by owners making different decisions.

Even me...who doesn't rent...will have my family and friends acknowledge I am not getting paid....just in case!!! LOL

What I can say is that the ability to use points for APs...sorry my international friends....came at a perfect time!!!

 

[Brian Noble]

There is something that prevents DVC from ever allowing owners to bank more than into the next UY and IIRC, it is because of the imbalance it could cause.

This isn't necessarily a problem. Wyndham allows banking into either of the next two years, and borrowing only from the next. They do say that they can temporarily restrict banking if an imbalance occurs (or, in older terms, "if the pool runs dry"), and that did happen for a few months at a time 15-ish years ago, but it has not happened since.

And DVC might very likely say to you, "Sorry, the proof you provided us to support you did not rent for more than your dues is not satisfactory." We will be canceling the last three reservations that were made.

If the owner doesn't like it, what will they do.....if they continue to try this method, and its review year after year, DVC can say we think you are commerical now and we are locking the account.....

This is exactly how Wyndham does it. Shoot first, ask questions never, the burden is on the owner, and few (if any) owners have been successful.

Having transfer points would not give an owner "extra" to rent out...for exmaple, using me....I have 900 points with $7K in dues...if I get a transfer of points that year of say, 300, I know have 1200 in my account to use, but I am still capped to rental income of no more than $7K since those are my annual dues.

This is a brillant move to curtail by-strip-flipping.

 

[Sandisw]

This isn't necessarily a problem. Wyndham allows banking into either of the next two years, and borrowing only from the next. They do say that they can temporarily restrict banking if an imbalance occurs (or, in older terms, "if the pool runs dry"), and that did happen for a few months at a time 15-ish years ago, but it has not happened since.


This is exactly how Wyndham does it. Shoot first, ask questions never, the burden is on the owner, and few (if any) owners have been successful.


This is a brillant move to curtail by-strip-flipping.

And, my speculation is that DVC will continue to be reasonable with owners whose actions, even if flagged, don't indicate they are trying to break the rules on purpose with fake rental agreements, and such.

But, if DVC believes the owner is acting in a way that makes them suspcious, or the history supports they have, , then I completely agree those owners could very well find themselves locked out or with lots of reservations canceled!!!

It even got me thinking about the emergency situation and someone needing to rent all their points....sure, they can rent them for half the going rate to stay at the dues level, but maybe what that owner would do is just rent half to cover dues and let the rest expire?

That would create additional unused points in the system...my point being that why would I deal with 10 rentals @ $9/point to use up all my points vs 5 rentals @ $18/point to cover my dues and let the rest lapse.

This is also why I think it was a smart move on DVC's part to stop owners from having more than one transfer in/out of their memberships too....

 

[IMMkXLVI]

168 pages and just for the record, I think 900 points is a lot if you book Value Studios only at 11 month priority window . Doesn’t matter to me if they are friends or family or strangers !
If it harms my DVC vacation for my use as a single guest in a studio or Cabin
I am going to tell my Guide with phone conversation and appointment to waste their paid salaried / commissioned valuable time to complete their job description

Also , If I print this and have it published as a Book and then sell film rights for my personal successful mini business venture…
I don’t have to get your permission and do not have to pay anything from my profit to every poster.
Is that what we are Discussing ?
I think I could make a great soap opera live stream too .
So technically and legally you have just argued for me to profit from your words and innocent explanations ..
Thank you

I do not believe DVC /DVD has included in any contract with any original dated purchase whether direct or resale That they guarantee I can Open for Business
To pay dues / maintenance fees. On Disney property income.
Does this mean I can watch for the guests that talk to the DVC associates inside theme parks or resorts Offering information and to make appointment for guest … I can wait for them to walk away and approach them to offer a better deal ?

 

[Cyberc1978]

What I can say is that the ability to use points for APs...sorry my international friends....came at a perfect time!!!

As an international owner who are also MMB I could see myself use some of my points for an AP going forward.

 

[mkatsy]

Word is getting out there

 

[Kingkonig]

But you’re right they’re initially not gonna get that precise, because they would probably swamp their review team with just the 100% to 90% of points renters. So I don’t know if they’re gonna initially even look at the ones ?

Probably start with the big ones and they can work their way down.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Probably start with the big ones and they can work their way down.

Well that’s the thing. Maybe DVC won’t have to.

If they tab a few mega renters on the shoulder and ask them to get in line. Either they do or reservation will most likely be cancelled.

If reservations are cancelled those mega renters will have to close shop - it’s no fun to have 50-100 reservations cancelled.

There will be an outcry on SoMe impacting everyone who rents including you, me and everyone else.

 

[Sandisw]

Well that’s the thing. Maybe DVC won’t have to.

If they tab a few mega renters on the shoulder and ask them to get in line. Either they do or reservation will most likely be cancelled.

If reservations are cancelled those mega renters will have to close shop - it’s no fun to have 50-100 reservations cancelled.

There will be an outcry on SoMe impacting everyone who rents including you, me and everyone else.

And I do think that the more owners who are asking for clarification and being given info, some will proactively change tactics.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Well that’s the thing. Maybe DVC won’t have to.

If they tab a few mega renters on the shoulder and ask them to get in line. Either they do or reservation will most likely be cancelled.

If reservations are cancelled those mega renters will have to close shop - it’s no fun to have 50-100 reservations cancelled.

There will be an outcry on SoMe impacting everyone who rents including you, me and everyone else.

Very true.

This whole thing is really a bit disingenuous on DVCs part at the moment.

If you look over on the Dibb, there are owners trying to rent points via David’s, who are being told by CMs that they can’t change the names of the guest as it is not ‘personal use’

Most members really don’t understand the nuances in this, and won’t say it is ‘personal’ if it’s not themselves on the reservation. Obviously, Disney is quite happy to leave it that way rather than explain what personal use actually means.

These folks are not commercial renters, they are owners who are just doing very occasional rentals.

I really hope we do get some written information on the policy as a result of Sandi’s letter. It’s not right that every owner should have to go digging for the information before DVC will offer it.

 

[Sandisw]

Very true.

This whole thing is really a bit disingenuous on DVCs part at the moment.

If you look over on the Dibb, there are owners trying to rent points via David’s, who are being told by CMs that they can’t change the names of the guest as it is not ‘personal use’

Most members really don’t understand the nuances in this, and won’t say it is ‘personal’ if it’s not themselves on the reservation. Obviously, Disney is quite happy to leave it that way rather than explain what personal use actually means.

These folks are not commercial renters, they are owners who are just doing very occasional rentals.

I really hope we do get some written information on the policy as a result of Sandi’s letter. It’s not right that every owner should have to go digging for the information before DVC will offer it.

And I think owners who are being told these things or even here about them should be blasting DVC with emails stating they are concerned about how some MS CMs are misleading folks into thinking something not true.

I think they know that people will hear “personal use” and interpret it to mean themselves only when that is not the definition in the contract.

My own experience proved that they are misleading folks and it was only because I knew to call him out that I got the answers I did.

 

[drusba]

There is language that speaks to this in the original OKW POS and I’ll look it up later today. I remember being surprised when I read it. I think it said something to the effect that it’s your accounts, any accounts your name is on (I’m assuming they mean associate members here), plus any LLC that you or your family own. I was surprised by the word “family” but maybe that’s to prevent someone from claiming that the LLC belongs to a spouse.

The POS's have always provided that corporations and businesses (which includes LLC's) are limited to allowing principals (the controlling owners or shareholders), directors, officers and employees to use the rooms, i.e., they have always been prohibited from renting to any others. The POS also provides a total point limit that can be owned, currently 4,000 any one resort and 8,000 total, and that is defined as a combination limit -- if any member has joined with any other members (including via being designated an associate member on another's account) to make reservations, the group is limited to owning a total of 4,000/8,000 points, e.g., if two members, each owning 2001 points each at the same resort, are acting together, they both would be in violation of the 4,000 point max any one resort.

 

[Genie+]

We also don’t know the entire story about these owners on the Dibb.

I know sometimes CMS get things wrong, and some have even pushed their own personal ideals at times, but how likely is it that CMs are just going around telling people they can’t change the name on a reservation? Without any other provocation? With DVC’s backing?

Yeah, I agree that DVC should never be misleading people and should never use their insider knowledge to exploit the membership. I do commend them on addressing the clarification of what it is to ‘go beyond personal use’ and to safeguard the membership from negative commercial impacts when that is clearly one of the things the contract was set up to be able to enforce.