DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[Sandisw]

That’s awesome! I know many people are anxious to know the exact criteria that triggers the flagging, I’m just content to know that there is someone out there looking over these files and making a determination. How they handle these folks may never come out publicly

Which is why I recommend that people reach out to MS supervisors or email DVC directly to get specifics so they aren’t relying on second and third hand knowledge.

 

[CarolynFH]

How they handle these folks may never come out publicly

If it does come out publicly, it will probably come from the business itself. I doubt that Disney will make any announcements or name names. All Disney needs to do is shut them down. They don’t need to shame them. None of the megarenters that shut down due to Wyndham’s actions were named by Wyndham.

 

[Brianstl]

If it does come out publicly, it will probably come from the business itself. I doubt that Disney will make any announcements or name names. All Disney needs to do is shut them down. They don’t need to shame them. None of the megarenters that shut down due to Wyndham’s actions were named by Wyndham.

This will be the first way we find out about it. I am sure some of the big renters will post sob stories that aren’t exactly true to try to generate sympathy for them and outrage at Disney. Probably talk about a lawsuit against DVC. The second thing will be more contracts popping up on the secondary market and a tick down in buyer demand on the secondary market as contracts sit longer. The big renters will stop buying contracts at least until they find out how serious DVC is about pursuing this.

 

[CarolynFH]

This will be the first way we find out about it. I am sure some of the big renters will post sob stories that aren’t exactly true to try to generate sympathy for them and outrage at Disney. Probably talk about a lawsuit against DVC. The second thing will be more contracts popping up on the secondary market and a tick down in buyer demand on the secondary market as contracts sit longer. The big renters will stop buying contracts at least until they find out how serious DVC is about pursuing this.

Exactly. I don’t expect anything dramatic, just a gradual change in confirmed reservations available, an increase in contracts for sale for a bit, etc. Wyndham did cancel reservations without notice, and guests did show up at Bonnet Creek to check in to find they had no place to stay. I do not expect Disney to do that because of the public outcry it would create and the risk of canceling the wrong reservations, which happened to owners on Tug when Wyndham’s new rules were misapplied.

 

[Mouseforward]

This will be the first way we find out about it. I am sure some of the big renters will post sob stories that aren’t exactly true to try to generate sympathy for them and outrage at Disney. Probably talk about a lawsuit against DVC. The second thing will be more contracts popping up on the secondary market and a tick down in buyer demand on the secondary market as contracts sit longer. The big renters will stop buying contracts at least until they find out how serious DVC is about pursuing this.

Looking at the resale numbers for June that came out today we may not notice with the continuous 1% decline. Contracts seem to have longer time on market anyway.

But your 100% right that there will be an epic Facebook sob story ( I kind of look forward to it)

 

[Kingkonig]

But your 100% right that there will be an epic Facebook sob story ( I kind of look forward to it)

the real question is whether or not they’ll be more or less believable than the recruiter/salesperson stories on LinkedIn.

 

[Mouseforward]

Exactly. I don’t expect anything dramatic, just a gradual change in confirmed reservations available, an increase in contracts for sale for a bit, etc. Wyndham did cancel reservations without notice, and guests did show up at Bonnet Creek to check in to find they had no place to stay. I do not expect Disney to do that because of the public outcry it would create and the risk of canceling the wrong reservations, which happened to owners on Tug when Wyndham’s new rules were misapplied.

Although we like to think they would crack down to help us, I wonder what % of WDW's desire to crack down on commercial renters is the current issue of Facebook rental fraud and people showing up with fake reservations now?

 

[Mouseforward]

the real question is whether or not they’ll be more or less believable than the recruiter/salesperson stories on LinkedIn.

It will be more believable than their sob story about having to cancel their 6 separate run disney weekend AK value reservations due to sudden illness.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Although we like to think they would crack down to help us, I wonder what % of WDW's desire to crack down on commercial renters is the current issue of Facebook rental fraud and people showing up with fake reservations now?

I often come across the word "Crack down" I might even have used it myself. But I do wonder if a crack down will even happen.

IMO with a crack down, DVC are targeting many many owners - but in this case I don't think they will. If they target only say the 10 biggest renters then its hardly a crack down, I would instead call it enforcing the current policy.

As I have said before, I will continue to rent as much or little as I did before the new T&C. If I'm in breach DVC will contact me. It's too difficult to adhere to a policy which I don't fully know. If I'm in breach ill ask what/why I'm in breach that way I can keep within the thin red line going forward.

I'd recommend that ppl continue to do whatever they did before - over time we might be able to piece together information and knowledge about what's allowed and what isn't.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Exactly. I don’t expect anything dramatic, just a gradual change in confirmed reservations available, an increase in contracts for sale for a bit, etc. Wyndham did cancel reservations without notice, and guests did show up at Bonnet Creek to check in to find they had no place to stay. I do not expect Disney to do that because of the public outcry it would create and the risk of canceling the wrong reservations, which happened to owners on Tug when Wyndham’s new rules were misapplied.

Innocent families showing up to find their reservations had been canceled would be an absolute PR nightmare for Disney. And there is no need to do this as preventing commercial operators from making further reservations would be just as effective in curtailing their activities.

 

[Mouseforward]

IMO with a crack down, DVC are targeting many many owners - but in this case I don't think they will. If they target only say the 10 biggest renters then its hardly a crack down, I would instead call it enforcing the current policy.

I am in the "only accounts that pretty much exclusively rent will be addressed" camp as well with my expectations.

We don't know if the top 10 bad actor LLCs have 500,000 points between them or 80,000 points. If they have 500,000 points that could be equal to the next 50 commercial renters so diminishing returns for DVC legal time.

What I don't see happing:
1. Labeling all renting as commercial and banning it
2. New rules like preventing lead guest changes
3. DVC admitting anything they do is a change in policy

What I do see happening:

People who rent all their points (regardless of number of points) each year getting questioned / investigated probably starting in 2027 so they have data. Reason: In order to go after the big renters they have to apply a consistent policy and can not selectively enforce. A 800 point commercial renter is just as guilty as an 8,000 point commercial renter of breaking 1 rule , however, a 10,000 point renter went afoul of 2 rules.

Smaller accounts will get warnings, and potentially have internet booking privileges suspended their account flagged so they have to verify with MS each reservation. In addition, that puts them at a 1 hour disadvantage for booking.

Anyone proven to have over 8,000 points hidden by LLCs will be forced to sell.

 

[Kingkonig]

Innocent families showing up to find their reservations had been canceled would be an absolute PR nightmare for Disney. And there is no need to do this as preventing commercial operators from making further reservations would be just as effective in curtailing their activities.

I’m not sure it would be. Plus, if the idea is to get customers to lose faith in the third party platforms, they do need it to get out.

In Disney’s mind they’re not necessarily “innocent” families, they’re groups trying to game the system and use Disney’s product without paying them. You can curtail supply for these third parties, but you also want to curtail demand.

 

[Mouseforward]

In Disney’s mind they’re not necessarily “innocent” families, they’re groups trying to game the system and use Disney’s product without paying them.

It is not Disney's product nor do they have a right to payment- Disney leased the property to DVD who sold it to Mary Jones .... Mary Jones owns the vacation ( but potentially broke DVCs rules)

Disney has no horse in the race other than their image. They sold off right to payment when the leasehold to DVD was created.

Semantic point : but I think we overestimate Disney Hotels involvement past the PR and Image concerns.

 

[muppets3d]

Although we like to think they would crack down to help us, I wonder what % of WDW's desire to crack down on commercial renters is the current issue of Facebook rental fraud and people showing up with fake reservations now?

Is this a big issue? News to me.

 

[Sandisw]

I am in the "only accounts that pretty much exclusively rent will be addressed" camp as well with my expectations.

We don't know if the top 10 bad actor LLCs have 500,000 points between them or 80,000 points. If they have 500,000 points that could be equal to the next 50 commercial renters so diminishing returns for DVC legal time.

What I don't see happing:
1. Labeling all renting as commercial and banning it
2. New rules like preventing lead guest changes
3. DVC admitting anything they do is a change in policy

What I do see happening:

People who rent all their points (regardless of number of points) each year getting questioned / investigated probably starting in 2027 so they have data. Reason: In order to go after the big renters they have to apply a consistent policy and can not selectively enforce. A 800 point commercial renter is just as guilty as an 8,000 point commercial renter of breaking 1 rule , however, a 10,000 point renter went afoul of 2 rules.

Smaller accounts will get warnings, and potentially have internet booking privileges suspended their account flagged so they have to verify with MS each reservation. In addition, that puts them at a 1 hour disadvantage for booking.

Anyone proven to have over 8,000 points hidden by LLCs will be forced to sell.

I think as more reports come out from owners who contact MS and get the information, then it will be easier to see and discuss where DVC landed on this.

And, I think you sre 100% correct that what you are predicting won’t happen will not.

Those truly in it for commercial purposes as defined by DVC will be caught up in it and have to make decisions on what to do.

My guess is they will choose to sell because it won’t make sense to keep if they can’t rent any longer to the degrees that make sense for commercial purposes.

I also think you are correct that they will do a better job of trying to find owners who are attached to more than 8000 points and force them to be removed as an owner from any contracts that put them over that amount.

In many cases, if they are the only owner, it would result in the actual sale.

 

[Mouseforward]

Is this a big issue? News to me.

It used to happen. I think with linking to MDE it has dropped dramatically since people figure out before they come that they’ve been had.

 

[xdan0920]

Well. I took the advice of some here and wrote member services, both by email and by chat. I helpfully included some links as well.

This was the response I received from the CM in the chat….

Edit to add text if the photo is blurry

“
As of June 2, our terms and conditions for reservations were updated and we are proactively including this dialogue with Members for reservations.


You agree that any reservations made under your Membership are solely for personal use and not for commercial purposes, as required by governing documents for each DVC Resort, including but not limited to the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement. Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC reserves the right to interpret personal use and determine if reservations are booked for personal or commercial purposes in its sole discretion. Personal use may include enjoying the benefits of a DVC Membership with family or allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion. Additionally, personal use means that the Member does not regularly or frequently rent/sell reservations booked using their Membership.


Disney Vacation Club is reviewing any reservation suspected of Commercial Renting and are determining which reservations fall under that issue.”

 

[Sandisw]

Well. I took the advice of some here and wrote member services, both by email and by chat. I helpfully included some links as well.

This was the response I received from the CM in the chat….

Edit to add text if the photo is blurry

“
As of June 2, our terms and conditions for reservations were updated and we are proactively including this dialogue with Members for reservations.


You agree that any reservations made under your Membership are solely for personal use and not for commercial purposes, as required by governing documents for each DVC Resort, including but not limited to the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement. Disney Vacation Club Management, LLC reserves the right to interpret personal use and determine if reservations are booked for personal or commercial purposes in its sole discretion. Personal use may include enjoying the benefits of a DVC Membership with family or allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion. Additionally, personal use means that the Member does not regularly or frequently rent/sell reservations booked using their Membership.


Disney Vacation Club is reviewing any reservation suspected of Commercial Renting and are determining which reservations fall under that issue.”

Did you ask to have them clarify what the definition is that is being used for enforcement? You may need to call and talk to a supervisor, but they are letting owners know that when asked "So, tell me what I can do as an owner when renting"...

I will admit that I have been told the same thing know a few times as to how this is playing out.

 

[xdan0920]

Did you ask to have them clarify what the definition is that is being used for enforcement? You may need to call and talk to a supervisor, but they are letting owners know that when asked "So, tell me what I can do as an owner when renting"...

I specifically asked if renting out half your points every year was an appropriate use of your membership. I got a canned answer, I save the chat to my computer I’ll share the answer when I get home.

You are saying, when you called, they outlined exactly what you could do?

 

[Sandisw]

I specifically asked if renting out half your points every year was an appropriate use of your membership. I got a canned answer, I save the chat to my computer I’ll share the answer when I get home.

You are saying, when you called, they outlined exactly what you could do?

Yes but I had to ask to be escalated to a supervisor because as I mentioned in an earlier post, the CM tried to say the whole "family and friends" line reading from the policy and when I further inquired, I was sent to a supervisor.

She answered all my questions, and confirmed it was a recorded line so everything I was told is on record... which I have now documented.

What I can say, based on the times I have now called is that the front line CM's appear to have been trained to be as vague as possible, and in times, even IMO, misleading, if the person calling doesn't necessarily push it.

But, there were a few who were consistent in the answers I received.