DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[DonMacGregor]

This is what perplexes me about the checkbox , if it had 2 options, Use by owner/ family or rental, then they could report on it.

It is a checkbox that does not let you make the reservation if you don't check it. So your report will be 100% said it was for personal use - as each person understands what the personal use definition is.

It's a "Don't come back later complaining that you didn't fully understand that reservations are for personal use only" checkbox.

It's not there to track anything. It's the first part in a two-pronged test for determining commercial use. The first prong being the acknowledgement that the contract is, in fact, to be used solely for personal use. The second prong being the determination that rental activity, beyond whatever threshold Disney establishes exceeds personal use, has occurred.

People will try to make two arguments: First will be "I didn't know the contract was to be used for personal use only". The second will be "I didn't realize my rental activity exceeded the threshold Disney has set for personal use". The checkbox addresses the first argument. Disney's internal tracking will address the second.

 

[Mouseforward]

It's a "Don't come back later complaining that you didn't fully understand that reservations are for personal use only" checkbox.

It's not there to track anything. It's the first part in a two-pronged test for determining commercial use. The first prong being the acknowledgement that the contract is, in fact, to be used solely for personal use. The second prong being the determination that rental activity, beyond whatever threshold Disney establishes exceeds personal use, has occurred.

People will try to make two arguments: First will be "I didn't know the contract was to be used for personal use only". The second will be "I didn't realize my rental activity exceeded the threshold Disney has set for personal use". The checkbox addresses the first argument. Disney's internal tracking will address the second.

But both agreements fail if they don’t provide direction on what they defined as commercial use. You can see just in the past few replies that some people take a very strict definition that anytime money changes his hands. It’s commercial . After running an HOA and being told by the state Supreme Court that our restriction in the covenants stating that you cannot use your house for commercial purposes did not ban short term rentals according to the law. I know now that that definition doesn’t mean what people think it does. There’s actually a lot of factors to what’s a commercial enterprise. Try and claim a commercial enterprise on your taxes, and you have to jump through hoops to claim that your a business and take any write offs.

As I said, if the click through asked if I was renting this reservation with a yes or no to me that would be much more effective and very clear to owners.

 

[Sandisw]

But both agreements fail if they don’t provide direction on what they defined as commercial use. You can see just in the past few replies that some people take a very strict definition that anytime money changes his hands. It’s a commercial . After running an HOA and being told by the state Supreme Court that our restriction in the covenants stating that you cannot use your house for commercial purposes did not ban short term rentals according to the law. I know now that that definition doesn’t mean what people think it does. There’s actually a lot of new ones to what’s a commercial enterprise. Try and claim a commercial enterprise on your taxes, and you have to jump through hoops to claim that your a business and take any write offs.

As I said, if the click through asked if I was renting this reservation with a yes or no to me that would be much more effective and very clear to owners.

I am hoping that we do indeed start getting some information about specifics as more people email or contact MS for clarification and once that happens, at least we may all know what they are thinking.

 

[CarolynFH]

And the good/bad part is four of those 10 minutes could be just getting from your room to the lobby.

I have to laugh because this is true!

 

[lowlight]

I will say one of the sites I regularly monitor has steadily declined and confirmed listings dropped about 10% (130 or so) in the past week. This is the lowest I’ve seen it in a few years of monitoring it, but it doesn’t seem like a precipitous enough of a drop to be enforcement numbers- maybe just people being more cautious?

 

[Brianstl]

I am sure Disney probably regrets ever allowing a LLC to buy into the properties. They could have avoided creating much of the monster discussed here. Plus, LLC’s can be used to hide the sale of contracts by selling a a LLC whose only assets are a contract/contracts. Thus, they can be used to shield the contracts from both ROFR and losing direct buy status.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I am sure Disney probably regrets ever allowing a LLC to buy into the properties. They could have avoided creating much of the monster discussed here. Plus, LLC’s can be used to hide the sale of contracts by selling a a LLC whose only assets are a contract/contracts. Thus, they can be used to shield the contracts from both ROFR and losing direct buy status.

That last trick of the LLC seems like one I'd like, a get out of ROFR card. lol

I wonder why international buyers don't establish a US LLC and use that, then they'd not be left out of the perks for US only members.

Just thinking aloud.

 

[mkatsy]

That last trick of the LLC seems like one I'd like, a get out of ROFR card. lol

I wonder why international buyers don't establish a US LLC and use that, then they'd not be left out of the perks for US only members.

Just thinking aloud.

They probably just aren’t aware that the option exists, because they are 100% allowed to establish an LLC in Florida. I just looked it up, it’s $125

 

[mkatsy]

This is what I have requested and if I am ignored, then it means I need to contact the Division of Timeshares in FL.

Eeek … that’s sounds like an a sure way to get on the “last to check-in / dumpster view” list.

 

[Cyberc1978]

That last trick of the LLC seems like one I'd like, a get out of ROFR card. lol

I wonder why international buyers don't establish a US LLC and use that, then they'd not be left out of the perks for US only members.

Just thinking aloud.

Well as a foreigner or international owner if you prefer I’m MMB even though I shouldn’t be.

right now there is no need to jumping through hoops to get the perks - but it sounds like a great idea

 

[Cyberc1978]

Eeek … that’s sounds like an a sure way to get on the “last to check-in / dumpster view” list.

I think it’s the other way around - DVC is preferring, to not be on Sandisw naughty list

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

We all know that around Walt Disney World (WDW) there are larger, nicer, and less expensive rooms, but they don’t offer the in-park experience. Disney relied on this unique appeal and raised prices on deluxe hotel rooms.

Unfortunately, they set prices higher than the value the public places on the “in-park experience,” so guests began looking elsewhere. [snip]

I cut out a lot of this post but it seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of supply and demand. If you look at an intro to macroeconomics text book, the more luxury hotel rooms you make available on Crescent Lake (supply), the lower the price goes, unless you can increase the number of people who want to book them (demand). When demand is constant, an increase in supply lowers the room price which is exactly what is happening at BWV and BCV and to a lesser extent appears to be happening at VGF and PVB. More specifically, supply keeps increasing as increasing numbers of DVC owners realize they can buy more points and profit from renting them even after covering dues and buy-in costs, but the demand for $500-800 hotel rooms is relatively constant or increasing. Thus, Disney is forced to lower prices and having a harder time filling the hotel rooms at all.

Is there any correlation between the points chart and the rack rate on the hotel side. If I were selecting something with the intention of selling it (renting) I would maximize my profit by offing rooms that had the biggest gap between points paid and room rate. VGF might simply have too high of a point chart to reserve regularly. I’ve owned VGF two years and had no issues so far

Yes, that's exactly why renting is worst for the lowest point rooms and the most desirable locations. I actually think there's a double whammy of people realizing their shiny new VGF and PVB points don't go very far, so they try to switch into the crescent lake original resorts to save points, but also more and more owners are realizing over time that if they have extra points they can make the most money off those points by renting BW, AKV (if they can get them), BC, and then, at least until recently, Poly and GF were also not bad places to rent because even at $20/pt it was a lot cheaper than the hotel rooms... however, Disney has been having to lower prices on it's hotel rooms as rentals increase and guest demand softens, so now it's less desirable to rent along the monorail.

Appreciate the feedback, so yes, at least that supports some level of inconsistency!! I know I have read that several owners have followed up with emails to DVC about this and that the MS CM's are giving inaccurate information.

I have no idea why people keep assuming that MS CM's are giving inaccurate information. This is exactly what happened in the weeks prior to the dramatic DAS overhaul... people kept hearing cast members suggest draconian restrictions and dramatic changes and confidently telling each other "there's no way they can kick out people with IBS, that would be illegal" or "surely they will let us add 6 on to our DAS family member's account because it just wouldn't be a vacation if we can't all ride together."

I'm not sure what the actual new policy will be, but it seems extremely unlikely that MS CMs who are taking the time to reply by email are just making things up that did not start with Disney. It's not impossible, but discount them at your own peril. I've only seen anecdotal reports on social media (from people whom I don't know well enough to say whether they are making up the story) but if a real person you know was told "I'm supposed to be reporting things that look like rentals" or "you can only rent to friends and family you know personally", I would absolutely start looking to unload however many excess points I needed to rent more frequently than every other year, at minimum, ASAP.

 

[Mouseforward]

I cut out a lot of this post but it seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of supply and demand. If you look at an intro to macroeconomics text book, the more luxury hotel rooms you make available on Crescent Lake (supply), the lower the price goes

I think we agree on the fundamentals, my point is relation to would Disney do a point buyback? To that I said no because they already have a problem filling rooms. If they did a point buyback they would have to then sell the rooms for cash increasing their supply of available rooms . So they would essentially be lowering their own prices to offer more rooms.

That’s why I don’t think Disney does a point buyback. I also think Disney hires a lot of smart people and they have probably worked through this in the past 30 years. That’s why we don’t have one. I think they have enough points from cruises and magical beginnings to satisfy any need they have.

 

[Sandisw]

Eeek … that’s sounds like an a sure way to get on the “last to check-in / dumpster view” list.

Nah…because I am hoping that the board responds…but if not, that is the reason why the statutes exist.

Had the dumpster view and it was okay! Plus, the one time they didn’t give my room until 5:30, I was able the manager to comp our meal for 7 at Ohanas!!!! Lol

 

[Sandisw]

I cut out a lot of this post but it seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of supply and demand. If you look at an intro to macroeconomics text book, the more luxury hotel rooms you make available on Crescent Lake (supply), the lower the price goes, unless you can increase the number of people who want to book them (demand). When demand is constant, an increase in supply lowers the room price which is exactly what is happening at BWV and BCV and to a lesser extent appears to be happening at VGF and PVB. More specifically, supply keeps increasing as increasing numbers of DVC owners realize they can buy more points and profit from renting them even after covering dues and buy-in costs, but the demand for $500-800 hotel rooms is relatively constant or increasing. Thus, Disney is forced to lower prices and having a harder time filling the hotel rooms at all.

Yes, that's exactly why renting is worst for the lowest point rooms and the most desirable locations. I actually think there's a double whammy of people realizing their shiny new VGF and PVB points don't go very far, so they try to switch into the crescent lake original resorts to save points, but also more and more owners are realizing over time that if they have extra points they can make the most money off those points by renting BW, AKV (if they can get them), BC, and then, at least until recently, Poly and GF were also not bad places to rent because even at $20/pt it was a lot cheaper than the hotel rooms... however, Disney has been having to lower prices on it's hotel rooms as rentals increase and guest demand softens, so now it's less desirable to rent along the monorail.

I have no idea why people keep assuming that MS CM's are giving inaccurate information. This is exactly what happened in the weeks prior to the dramatic DAS overhaul... people kept hearing cast members suggest draconian restrictions and dramatic changes and confidently telling each other "there's no way they can kick out people with IBS, that would be illegal" or "surely they will let us add 6 on to our DAS family member's account because it just wouldn't be a vacation if we can't all ride together."

I'm not sure what the actual new policy will be, but it seems extremely unlikely that MS CMs who are taking the time to reply by email are just making things up that did not start with Disney. It's not impossible, but discount them at your own peril. I've only seen anecdotal reports on social media (from people whom I don't know well enough to say whether they are making up the story) but if a real person you know was told "I'm supposed to be reporting things that look like rentals" or "you can only rent to friends and family you know personally", I would absolutely start looking to unload however many excess points I needed to rent more frequently than every other year, at minimum, ASAP.

I can tell you that the last CM I talked to implied something that was corrected when I asked to be escalated to a supervisor.

He tried the “only family and friends” line and when I said it didn’t make sense, he transferred me to a supervisor who then clarified with me that renting to more than family and friends is still allowed.

So, the initial CM did in fact attempt to mislead me with his answer, which, I already knew because of what other CMs had already told me a few weeks ago.

Some said if you mention renting you will be reported…misleading …if you volunteer it’s a rental, they make a note…but that’s it. If you answer yes to its for personal use, the reservation is still booked and nothing else is noted.

If something is flagged by the system that matches what DVC is using as criteria it’s escalated to the business division for review.

For now, I’ll leave it there other than I confirmed with her that since it was a recorded line, what was shared was on the record. And she said yes.

I highly recommend anyone who wants first hand information so they can make their own decisions reach out to DVC via email or discuss with an MS supervisor for clarification surrounding this.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

I can tell you that the last CM I talked to implied something that was corrected when I asked to be escalated to a supervisor.

He tried the “only family and friends” line and when I said it didn’t make sense, he transferred me to a supervisor who then clarified with me that renting to more than family and friends is still allowed.

Some said if you mention renting you will be reported…misleading …if you volunteer it’s a rental, they make a note…but that’s it. If you answe yes to its for personal use, the reservation is still booked and nothing else is noted.

If something is flagged by the system that matches what DVC is using as criteria it’s escalated to the business division for review.

For now, I’ll leave it there other than I confirmed with her that since it was a recorded line, what was shared was on the record. And she said yes.

I highly recommend anyone who wants first hand information so they can make their own decisions reach out to DVC via email or discuss with an MS supervisor for clarification surrounding this.

What does the contract/rules/law permit DVC/Disney/DVD to do if someone is verified to be a commercial renter?

Can someone be "kicked out" of DVC?? How would that work given it is a purchase (of points) with dues paid?

With all this talk of contracts, laws, rules and potential violations it begs the question; what could the punishment even consist of??

Perhaps this is why commercial owners are as brazen or prolific. They've already assessed that the DVC/DVD/Disney is a toothless old grishnar cat who's roar is worth than her bite.

 

[Sandisw]

What does the contract/rules/law permit DVC/Disney/DVD to do if someone is verified to be a commercial renter?

Can someone be "kicked out" of DVC?? How would that work given it is a purchase (of points) with dues paid?

With all this talk of contracts, laws, rules and potential violations it begs the question; what could the punishment even consist of??

Perhaps this is why commercial owners are as brazen or prolific. They've already assessed that the DVC/DVD/Disney is a toothless old grishnar cat who's roar is worth than her bite.

I know they can cancel reservations they believe exceed the threshold

I know they can lock someone out of their membership until they feel they are in compliance.

Someone here said they can initiate proceedings to force a sale…I’m not sure about that one but it’s certainly possible.

But, they can definitely stop an owner from making more reservations by freezing their memberships…until the reservations in question have happened if they decided not to cancel them outright.

 

[Mouseforward]

I know they can cancel reservations they believe exceed the threshold

I know they can lock someone out of their membership until they feel they are in compliance.

Someone here said they can initiate proceedings to force a sale…I’m not sure about that one but it’s certainly possible.

But, they can definitely stop an owner from making more reservations by freezing their memberships…until the reservations in question have happened if they decided not to cancel them outright.

Just locking out of the membership would force them to sell. MF must not be cheap on thousands of points.

 

[mkatsy]

If something is flagged by the system that matches what DVC is using as criteria it’s escalated to the business division for review.

That’s awesome! I know many people are anxious to know the exact criteria that triggers the flagging, I’m just content to know that there is someone out there looking over these files and making a determination. How they handle these folks may never come out publicly

 

[Mouseforward]

That’s awesome! I know many people are anxious to know the exact criteria that triggers the flagging, I’m just content to know that there is someone out there looking over these files and making a determination. How they handle these folks may never come out publicly

We will never know unless it is a public company known to the DVC crowd. We should not assume commercial renters are even based in the US , it could be a shell LLC for a foreign actor. Lots of ticket scalpers are not US based. If they follow HOA rules they won't release the name.