DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[GrumpyInPhilly]

I agree, if you utilize your home resort period, sleep around points aren’t an issue. I think a lot of the issue I have with it is Disney sold resorts that nobody wants to actually stay at, including the owners, so at 7 months there is a very large one way exodus of points. When I owned at VGF, I’d often try to trade in to Poly, or BC at 7 months. I imagine many at Poly try to trade in to VGF at 7 months, opening up a fairly equal trade in availability. Nobody is swapping from the top 5 resorts to SSR at 7 months. Nobody. This leads, I assume, to a ton of SSR and OKW rooms being snatched on II exchange or going to breakage. It’s like having the worst gift at a Yankee swap.

Well, I did about 10 years back. Family wanted to stay in Treehouses so used my BCV points. Maybe could have saved some $ by renting out the BCV points and renting some SSR points but it was easy peasy to just book it the way I did. Ended up liking the Treehouses so much that I bought SSR points!

 

[Mouseforward]

Lots of people swap out for SSR, OK, it’s not always my preference. But if you have 25 stray points on one contract 45 points on another, it’s gonna be the only thing where you can get a solid week. So I’ve done it. And to be honest, I actually enjoy it when I’m traveling solo because of the quick access to Disney Springs.

Now Animal Kingdom and old Key West- nope not for a studio.

 

[Cyberc1978]

But, there are other large point owners who may be renting thousands who never spec rent and just do on demand rentals.

IMO renting on demand or spec it’s all the same. A rental is a rental regardless how one decides to see it.

Can anyone really blame owners if they try to maximize their income for the points they need to rent?

If I could rent a value or BWV SV reservation during December then I would do it. Why shouldn’t I?

I’d rather spec rent instead of hoping to rent something on demand.

 

[Tatebeck]

IMO renting on demand or spec it’s all the same. A rental is a rental regardless how one decides to see it.

Can anyone really blame owners if they try to maximize their income for the points they need to rent?

If I could rent a value or BWV SV reservation during December then I would do it. Why shouldn’t I?

I’d rather spec rent instead of hoping to rent something on demand.

And IMO they aren't really the same at all. Like everything else it tends to be somewhere in the middle.

If spec renting gets out of control, a few members with a lot of points can book multiple reservations for the same day/weekend/etc expecting it to rent well eventually and completely tie up entire room categories and ruining planning for tens or even hundreds of members actually using their points as intended. I hope it never gets to that point

 

[Sandisw]

IMO renting on demand or spec it’s all the same. A rental is a rental regardless how one decides to see it.

Can anyone really blame owners if they try to maximize their income for the points they need to rent?

If I could rent a value or BWV SV reservation during December then I would do it. Why shouldn’t I?

I’d rather spec rent instead of hoping to rent something on demand.

That’s how I feel and why I do not expect DVC to attempt to differentiate it because it could complicate things.

There are things they can do that can achieve similar results.

The big question is where is DVC drawing the line in the sand on what level of renting turns the membership into a commercial one and how could it be different then the previous things allowed.

We know the 20 reservations rule and we know that owners have been told renting half your points to cover dues is allowed.

So, will those continue to be used or will they implement new metrics? And if so, how open will they be with owners ahead of time.

Or, like you said, let owners continue doing what they doing until DVC steps in and says, no we don’t want you to do that anymore.

 

[Mouseforward]

IMO renting on demand or spec it’s all the same. A rental is a rental regardless how one decides to see it.

Can anyone really blame owners if they try to maximize their income for the points they need to rent?

If I could rent a value or BWV SV reservation during December then I would do it. Why shouldn’t I?

I’d rather spec rent instead of hoping to rent something on demand.

I don't think people care , I think the argument is that there is more ceiling for profit on BW and AK value than any other resort. Thus pushing commercial renters to buy and rent specifically this resort.

BW at 11 points you can rent at $32 ($352) and still be ahead of even AP discounted rates ($401). 10/11 points is just so low compared to rack rates.

Contrast that to VGF 18 points where you have a current $500 rate for passholders so best you can do is like $25 point ($450) for points that have always cost more than BW on the resale market.

(This is assuming that you would have to save the buyer $50 a night to make them give up the benefits of cash rentals.)

 

[Sandisw]

And IMO they aren't really the same at all. Like everything else it tends to be somewhere in the middle.

If spec renting gets out of control, a few members with a lot of points can book multiple reservations for the same day/weekend/etc expecting it to rent well eventually and completely tie up entire room categories and ruining planning for tens or even hundreds of members actually using their points as intended. I hope it never gets to that point

But that behavior could be flagged because of volume, and a substantial number of lead name changes above what an average owner would do?

What about an owner who lines up renters ahead of time and then automatically books in the names of those renters, would that not have the same impact on other owners?

 

[Tatebeck]

But that behavior could be flagged because of volume, and a substantial number of lead name changes above what an average owner would do?

What about an owner who lines up renters ahead of time and then automatically books in the names of those renters, would that not have the same impact on other owners?

It could and hopefully will be flagged because of volume. But at what volume? Hopefully they would use multiple factors and use a sliding scale like my idea the other day. If they just put out a specific number of points you can rent or reservations you can change the name on, it won't actually get the commercial renters out, they will just reduce to a level just below the maximum allowed or try to skirt around it another way.

A member lining up renters ahead of time is still different. It is different than prebooking and then spec renting multiple of the same room because you have to change the names on the reservation at the time of the reservation, which takes precious time. It also means you have agreed to a price ahead of time, and can't wait until rooms are sold out and then charge more due to scarcity.

If DVC can limit the number of computers logged into each membership (or do they already?), then having to go through the booking process multiple times while changing the guest names on each one instead of just keeping the default name will mean that they will be unable to grab as large of a number of reservations for a high value room that fully books in seconds/minutes

 

[muppets3d]

I don't think people care , I think the argument is that there is more ceiling for profit on BW and AK value than any other resort. Thus pushing commercial renters to buy and rent specifically this resort.

BW at 11 points you can rent at $32 ($352) and still be ahead of even AP discounted rates ($401). 10/11 points is just so low compared to rack rates.

Contrast that to VGF 18 points where you have a current $500 rate for passholders so best you can do is like $25 point ($450) for points that have always cost more than BW on the resale market.

(This is assuming that you would have to save the buyer $50 a night to make them give up the benefits of cash rentals.)

The points charts at AKL and BWV really make spec renting like taking candy from a baby. Not so much at many other resorts. At least not to the same scale.

 

[Mouseforward]

The points charts at AKL and BWV really make spec renting like taking candy from a baby. Not so much at many other resorts. At least not to the same scale.

As a poly owner, you’re really lucky to break even when you rent points if you bought it recently. I’ve got 25 stray points up for rent and I will probably break even after taxes.

Riviera‘s about the same way, and good luck, renting your cabin points.

 

[muppets3d]

As a poly owner, you’re really lucky to break even when you rent points if you bought it recently. I’ve got 25 stray points up for rent and I will probably break even after taxes.

Riviera‘s about the same way, and good luck, renting your cabin points.

Yeah the deals Disney has been offering for their deluxe resorts have maybe even made things worse for AKL and BWV owner, it seems to be concentrating their efforts on those few room types.

 

[Sandisw]

It could and hopefully will be flagged because of volume. But at what volume? Hopefully they would use multiple factors and use a sliding scale like my idea the other day. If they just put out a specific number of points you can rent or reservations you can change the name on, it won't actually get the commercial renters out, they will just reduce to a level just below the maximum allowed or try to skirt around it another way.

A member lining up renters ahead of time is still different. It is different than prebooking and then spec renting multiple of the same room because you have to change the names on the reservation at the time of the reservation, which takes precious time. It also means you have agreed to a price ahead of time, and can't wait until rooms are sold out and then charge more due to scarcity.

If DVC can limit the number of computers logged into each membership (or do they already?), then having to go through the booking process multiple times while changing the guest names on each one instead of just keeping the default name will mean that they will be unable to grab as large of a number of reservations for a high value room that fully books in seconds/minutes

Based on my own conversations with them so far, including at the meeting in December, they were very much supportive that the changes, if any are made, do not make things worse for the average owner.

Remember, the message at the meeting was “large point owners renting thousands of points” and that is who they want to target.

Which is why I don’t see them putting in metrics to address these hard to get rooms like this…especially when the special seasons list could be done.

One thing I have learned over the years is DVC likes simple and easy and if we are to see any rule changes, it won’t be complicated.

And, I am still highly confident that DVC understands that whatever definition they use for what makes an owner running a membership as a commercial enterprise will be one that is reasonable and similar to polices of the past.

We shall see..

Here is my latest prediction. The 2008 rule wlll be updated so that DVC can apply it to all memberships an owner is part of and not apply it to just single memberships and that they will set a metric to flag memberships over 2000 points who have more than 50% of reservations in the names of others.

Those below will be kept to the 20 reservations limit and will be allowed to have a mix of owners, renters and/or guests.

They will make it harder for corporations and LLC to have reservations in the names of lots of people and make them prove they are employees or members of the boards.

They may add the lead name change metric as additional proof someone is renting at volumes that appear to be commercial.

 

[lowlight]

Be honest …what is your definition of an owner renting in a way that makes them a comemrucal enterpise and not just a renter within their rights?

Plus, some of the ideas here are being presented as a way to help with some of the issues those large point owners who rent thousands are doing that impact owners.

If the point difference between RV and PV at BWV, wasn’t as great…or even the same, and only slept 4 like they originally did, they would be less attractive to those who target them.

So, it would automatically help because right now, getting any studio at BWV most of the year is not hard at 11 months.

I hesitate to answer this question, because you're basically asking me to put down what I think is acceptable level of renting, which is hard to answer as shown by DVC's unwillingness to do so. I can put forth what I think would be accepted by most everyone, and state that I'm not opposed to it, even if I don't fully agree with it. Without devoting too much of my precious and limited mental capacity to solving DVC's problem for them, I would say something akin to a percentage averaged out over 3 years in addition a hard cap on points. Don't hold me to the numbers, but something like if you rent out over 33.4% of your points averaged over 3 use years, capped at 1000 points total for those 3 use years. So if I have 3 contracts totaling 1000 points, I can rent all of them 1 year, and nothing the next 2, 333 points each year, or any combination therein. That allows you to rent out an entire year of points if a crisis comes up.

Lots of people swap out for SSR, OK, it’s not always my preference. But if you have 25 stray points on one contract 45 points on another, it’s gonna be the only thing where you can get a solid week. So I’ve done it. And to be honest, I actually enjoy it when I’m traveling solo because of the quick access to Disney Springs.

Now Animal Kingdom and old Key West- nope not for a studio.

"Lots of people"? I don't agree, as evidenced by availability. I'm also not talking about using stray points or last minute reservation, I'm saying not a single sane person is going to take their 11 month home resort BWV BW view studio week long reservation and trade into SSR at 7 months. You can find one offs like the person above who wanted to trade into a treehouse villa for the extra room, but that isn't what I'm talking about.

As a poly owner, you’re really lucky to break even when you rent points if you bought it recently. I’ve got 25 stray points up for rent and I will probably break even after taxes.

Riviera‘s about the same way, and good luck, renting your cabin points.

How do you determine break even? You can rent Poly straight up for 21/point as a point rental, and upwards of 30/point if you spec rent. At even 21/point, with dues of what, under $9 a point, that's 12/point extra. Even after taxes, that's still a large chunk per point. Are you taking into account buy in? That would be unusual for such a comparison.

 

[lowlight]

Plus, some of the ideas here are being presented as a way to help with some of the issues those large point owners who rent thousands are doing that impact owners.

If the point difference between RV and PV at BWV, wasn’t as great…or even the same, and only slept 4 like they originally did, they would be less attractive to those who target them.

So, it would automatically help because right now, getting any studio at BWV most of the year is not hard at 11 months.

You have always been a big proponent of keeping changes small to affect the least number of owners as possible (i.e. no limit on date changes to curb walking because it would hurt average members), so I find it hard to square this block of text with that.

 

[Sandisw]

You have always been a big proponent of keeping changes small to affect the least number of owners as possible (i.e. no limit on date changes to curb walking because it would hurt average members), so I find it hard to square this block of text with that.

Because the point chart changes for supply and demand are the responsibility of DVC and they are supposed to adjust if things are out of whack.

If the point difference between RV and PV is causing an imbalance then that is a change that DVC should be making to even it out.

So, overall, that is how they are supposed to deal with demand issues. And that does benefit the owners at a resort as a collective whole

That is completely different then changing the nature of the program in terms of booking and modification rules.

 

[Sandisw]

I hesitate to answer this question, because you're basically asking me to put down what I think is acceptable level of renting, which is hard to answer as shown by DVC's unwillingness to do so. I can put forth what I think would be accepted by most everyone, and state that I'm not opposed to it, even if I don't fully agree with it. Without devoting too much of my precious and limited mental capacity to solving DVC's problem for them, I would say something akin to a percentage averaged out over 3 years in addition a hard cap on points. Don't hold me to the numbers, but something like if you rent out over 33.4% of your points averaged over 3 use years, capped at 1000 points total for those 3 use years. So if I have 3 contracts totaling 1000 points, I can rent all of them 1 year, and nothing the next 2, 333 points each year, or any combination therein. That allows you to rent out an entire year of points if a crisis comes up.



"Lots of people"? I don't agree, as evidenced by availability. I'm also not talking about using stray points or last minute reservation, I'm saying not a single sane person is going to take their 11 month home resort BWV BW view studio week long reservation and trade into SSR at 7 months. You can find one offs like the person above who wanted to trade into a treehouse villa for the extra room, but that isn't what I'm talking about.



How do you determine break even? You can rent Poly straight up for 21/point as a point rental, and upwards of 30/point if you spec rent. At even 21/point, with dues of what, under $9 a point, that's 12/point extra. Even after taxes, that's still a large chunk per point. Are you taking into account buy in? That would be unusual for such a comparison.

Thank you…and I do think everyone sharing their own thoughts helps because it does put into context ones comments.

As you say, it’s up to DVC to ultimately decide what they want to be okay and want not.

Right now, the two actions we know owners have been told by DVC count are the 20 reservations and renting half your points yearly to cover dues.

It will be interesting to see if they continue to allow that or not.

 

[Sandisw]

Disney owns points at all resorts and they take points from owners when owners trade for a cruise or an annual pass or whatever. I don't remember the last time I saw a Jambo value studio available for cash on disneyworld.com, though.

I see them regularly…they come up more than you think.

 

[VGCgroupie]

You think those grade school kids are expensive? wait until you are picking up bar tabs for them in EPCOT they don’t go away, they come back with a fresh batch of little people. Then you need bigger rooms and you end up buying more points.

Most truth I’ve read in this entire thread.

 

[IMMkXLVI]

Thank you…and I do think everyone sharing their own thoughts helps because it does put into context ones comments.

As you say, it’s up to DVC to ultimately decide what they want to be okay and want not.

Right now, the two actions we know owners have been told by DVC count are the 20 reservations and renting half your points yearly to cover dues.

It will be interesting to see if they continue to allow that or not.

If the DVC to DCL conversion was more in line with rental value, they could curb some rentals. I am vacillating if I think the points for annual pass renewal is a value for us....or just DVC. The 65 per point seems high. It does spare me from the annoyances of renting but
like all magic, it comes at a cost deary.

 

[Mouseforward]

How do you determine break even? You can rent Poly straight up for 21/point as a point rental, and upwards of 30/point if you spec rent. At even 21/point, with dues of what, under $9 a point, that's 12/point extra. Even after taxes, that's still a large chunk per point. Are you taking into account buy in? That would be unusual for such a comparison.

Yes you have to consider buy in, unless you got your points for free.

But your not done- at 21 points a night you also have deducted 6% Florida sales / 6% rental tax so thats over $75 since both are taxed on the total amount of the rental including any up charge from the rental service not your profit.

You end up with a check for $450 deduct your MF + Point cost apx $325 and you get $125 profit

Then you pay federal and your home state taxes on the profit ....

Good luck spec renting a one night stay at poly @ $30 its not gonna happen very often, and also not worth the effort dealing with the wackos who pay those rates on facebook.