DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

Adding that I have also seen frequent renters advising each other to leave their names on their rental reservations. 😬 Respecting the rule not to share images here, but it is happening (which is insane and risky for both renter or and guest).

Also, I’m happy to hear Disney is evidently serious about making people say it’s personal use every time they make and change a reservation. I know there are some people assuring themselves Disney will adopt their preferred view of personal use, but I sure wouldn’t be checking that box if I planned to rent my points to a stranger (without written reassurance from Disney)… and I wouldn’t want to rent from a stranger who had checked the box either.

Everyone definitely has to do what they are comfortable with, that is for sure
 
I wouldn't think the Brokers wouldn't have any standing to sue DVC for use of THEIR System, probably only the point owners would have standing. But I'm guessing the Brokers all have at least a few points that they own...... but if they sue for renting they just proved DVC's point that they are renting commercially.
I'd argue the brokers are some of the largest culprits of commercial renting...but thats just a personal opinion on it.
 
I'd argue the brokers are some of the largest culprits of commercial renting...but thats just a personal opinion on it.
I…have a similar theory, but have absolutely no evidence to back it up, so it would be a baseless accusation if I made it.

Just thinking about how I would set it up if I was in their position, doesn’t mean they do. However either way I’m sure they’d have it with at least one level of separation between the broker side of the business and the commercial renting side.
 

I'd argue the brokers are some of the largest culprits of commercial renting...but thats just a personal opinion on it.
#NotAllBrokers 🤣

Seriously, though I think the majority of people in the brokerage world are at least dabbling in the occasional strip and flip— but there are definitely some that are more flagrantly abusing the system than others. Len Testa has commented elsewhere that he believes the target is spec renting, which seems like the most popular place to start for the major of members.

I don’t think we can predict what Disney will do next or how they will pick enforcement targets if we don’t know what is driving the sudden interest in curbing commercial use— the checkbox is a clue, but it doesn’t sound like even the big DVC players really know what the plan is, which is interesting too.
 
I just talked to MS about finalizing my AP purchase with points…mentioned this and asked if we would be getting any updated info regarding this.

She said there is no change in policy. This is just a new feature to have us acknowledge the terms and conditions that are the same as they have always been. She reminded me everything can be found in the POS.

The only other thing I am going to add is that the messaging in this conversation supports what DVC conveyed last year…
 
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I just talked to MS about finalizing my AP purchase with points…mentioned this and asked if we would be getting any updated info regarding this.

She said there is no change in policy. This is just a new feature to have us acknowledge the terms and conditions that are the same as they have always been. She reminded me everything can be found in the POS.

The only other thing I am going to add is that the messaging in this conversation supports what DVC conveyed last year…

ETA
It's 65 points for a Sorcerer Ap renewal? That seems high if you consider the dollar per point to rent.

I was just thinking, will a clamp down on renting have an impact on their cruise line reservations?
Our last cruise was booked by renting points and funding the cruise. Their internal point conversion isn't very favorable.
 
It's 65 points for a Sorcerer Ap renewal? That seems high if you consider the dollar per point to rent.

I was just thinking, will a clamp down on renting have an impact on their cruise line reservations?
Our last cruise was booked by renting points and funding the cruise. Their internal point conversion isn't very favorable.

I bought new for 75. For me, the value of my points is in their use. Not rental value.

Even if this wasn’t going on, I have no interest in renting.

Cruise charts are not great but deals can be found. For example, when DCL discounts, the points are discounted too.

So, it can make it more favorable if you can take advantage of those
 
It's 65 points for a Sorcerer Ap renewal? That seems high if you consider the dollar per point to rent.

I was just thinking, will a clamp down on renting have an impact on their cruise line reservations?
Our last cruise was booked by renting points and funding the cruise. Their internal point conversion isn't very favorable.
Compared to crazy high spec reservation commercial renter prices? Yeah it's not the best value. But you shouldn't be getting that much anyway.

Compared to normal $18-20 point rentals after taxes and everything? It's not that bad of a deal. I had banked points from last year so I renewed our 2 passes this way and used OTUP as well
 
Compared to crazy high spec reservation commercial renter prices? Yeah it's not the best value. But you shouldn't be getting that much anyway.

Compared to normal $18-20 point rentals after taxes and everything? It's not that bad of a deal. I had banked points from last year so I renewed our 2 passes this way and used OTUP as well

Forgot about OTU points…we purchased those this year since we got for half off…which means the points I actually used is 51….plus $240.

The $99 fee I am offsetting my memory maker since I only need it for one trip this year…October!
 
I just talked to MS about finalizing my AP purchase with points…mentioned this and asked if we would be getting any updated info regarding this.

She said there is no change in policy. This is just a new feature to have us acknowledge the terms and conditions that are the same as they have always been. She reminded me everything can be found in the POS.

The only other thing I am going to add is that the messaging in this conversation supports what DVC conveyed last year…
So 109pgs of commentary and discussion were kinda pointless then…that’s disappointing, though I guess not every surprising…but how is this current statement supporting what was mentioned in December? Seemed like they were gearing up to take a more proactive approach back then, but this just makes it seem like they’re not going to do anything. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding their objective.
 
So 109pgs of commentary and discussion were kinda pointless then…that’s disappointing, though I guess not every surprising…but how is this current statement supporting what was mentioned in December? Seemed like they were gearing up to take a more proactive approach back then, but this just makes it seem like they’re not going to do anything. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding their objective.
I think it depends on how you view it.

The policy has always been that personal use was allowed but commercial renting were not. In that sense policy haven’t changed.

If/When DVC starts to go after owners who they believe are running a commercial enterprise then that would be new. However DVC always had that option but decided not to enforce it…. Maybe until now… we shall see.
 
I think it depends on how you view it.

The policy has always been that personal use was allowed but commercial renting were not. In that sense policy haven’t changed.

If/When DVC starts to go after owners who they believe are running a commercial enterprise then that would be new. However DVC always had that option but decided not to enforce it…. Maybe until now… we shall see.
Yeah, the policy remains in effect, it seems that the procedures are changing. Or they’re preparing for them to change. I view it as a welcome change of procedure, but obviously it’s a mixed bag (otherwise there wouldn’t be 109 pages of comments)
 
I…have a similar theory, but have absolutely no evidence to back it up, so it would be a baseless accusation if I made it.

Just thinking about how I would set it up if I was in their position, doesn’t mean they do. However either way I’m sure they’d have it with at least one level of separation between the broker side of the business and the commercial renting side.
Someone else made a post upthread about the loudest individuals who comment about the injustices of this potential change are usually the ones trying to justify why they do the things they do, that are questionable. If you follow enough of the threads or facebook groups, you'll see their justification being that Disney is actually the largest renter of points, along with a lot of whataboutisms regarding Disney. In my opinion, being the most vocal against a change, and resorting to whataboutisms are just further attemps to justify their own mass rentals. It's not about pointing out an injustice Disney is doing to owners, it's about defending their business models.
 
Someone else made a post upthread about the loudest individuals who comment about the injustices of this potential change are usually the ones trying to justify why they do the things they do, that are questionable. If you follow enough of the threads or facebook groups, you'll see their justification being that Disney is actually the largest renter of points, along with a lot of whataboutisms regarding Disney. In my opinion, being the most vocal against a change, and resorting to whataboutisms are just further attemps to justify their own mass rentals. It's not about pointing out an injustice Disney is doing to owners, it's about defending their business models.
Without a doubt. Occam’s razor at play would suggest that’s why they’re constantly bringing that up.

However playing devil’s advocate, I would say that since the business model also relies upon members renting out their points, the rental brokers would want to get out in front of the fears of owners and try and justify it by saying “it’s okay, Disney does it too!”
 
Yeah, the policy remains in effect, it seems that the procedures are changing. Or they’re preparing for them to change. I view it as a welcome change of procedure, but obviously it’s a mixed bag (otherwise there wouldn’t be 109 pages of comments)
I fully expect that memberships which own thousands of points used to make spec reservations, listing them on the internet, and calling DVC to change the lead guest when the reservation sells, while attesting that each and every one is for “personal use”, can expect some action to be taken. Because really, DVC has these operators dead to rights, given that they have publicly listed the dates, resort and price for each reservation. On the other hand, I would expect owners who have a history of using their points primarily for reservations in their own name, deciding to rent points because they don’t go as much as they used to, want to cover their dues, or want to try a different vacation, will largely be left alone, especially if they follow the David’s/DVC Rental Store model as opposed to striving to get absolutely top dollar by making and reselling spec reservations for the most lucrative villas and dates.
 
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[…] will largely be left alone, especially if they follow the David’s/DVC Rental Store model as opposed to striving to get absolutely top dollar by making and reselling spec reservations for the most lucrative villas and dates.
See I’m not sure I agree with this one. These broker sites are directly competing with WDW resort bookings. They’re advertising themselves as a better (and cheaper) way to stay on property, and Disney is missing out on profit while they struggle to keep hotels filled. Sure they want to get the major commercial renters taken off the market because it upsets DVC Members, but they also likely want the brokers taken off market because it upsets the parent company.
 
So 109pgs of commentary and discussion were kinda pointless then…that’s disappointing, though I guess not every surprising…but how is this current statement supporting what was mentioned in December? Seemed like they were gearing up to take a more proactive approach back then, but this just makes it seem like they’re not going to do anything. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding their objective.
Honestly this is just another post in the 109 pages that is speculating. We will see over the next year what actually happens. It is entirely possible that flowdowns to CM's has not happened since they likely wont mess with previous confirmations...
 
IMO, this may be more about having an owner acknowledge things so if that owner is one who is doing a lot, or whatever DVc decides has shifted to commercial purpose membership, they have something to back it up.

Personally, I would not have no problem in saying yes.

Since the word leaseee is included in the POS under personal use, then I am being truthful.

The other part is that the online booking language and the reported phone or chat language is different.

Maybe just a tactic to out someone on the spot and they are hoping some owners think twice?

Agree. There appear to be two possibilities here:

A. DVD (DVC) Has Misread the Original Personal Injury Rules

The DVD personnel or lawyers who created and issued the June 2025 rules, and adopted the policy to require that a member making a reservation confirm that it is or is not solely for "personal use," failed to read or understand the definition of personal use in §12 of the Declarations, at least for all those resorts created before Riviera. That definition defines "personal use" as the use of a room as a vacation accommodation and expressly provides that a member's making such reservations for "lessees" is an allowed "personal use." Thus, a member's renting rooms to anyone for use as a vacation accommodation is, in fact, an allowed "personal use." It becomes an improper "commercial purpose" only if: (a) the rental is for actually using the room for a business purpose (something that can only be done in designated "Commercial Units"); or (b) the member has engaged in a pattern of rental activity that the association can reasonably conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice (a commercial enterprise is a legal term meaning that one is actually regularly engaging in the business for doing something for profit). As a result, most members who do rentals can honestly answer "yes" to the question whether a reservation is solely for personal use even if the particular reservation is a rental.

B. DVD Is Intentionally Being Disingenuous

I doubt the responsible DVD personnel are as uninformed as stated above. As DVD is undoubtedly aware, DVD is allowed to unilaterally make changes to things in the declarations after a resort begins to be sold but, absent a vote of the members, is prohibited from doing so if the change could "prejudice or impair to any material extent the rights of any Owner." E.g., BWV Declarations §16.2. Courts consider the right to rent residential-type property such as timeshares to be a fundamental right of the owners. Thus, DVC Resorts’ declarations do not allow DVD to further restrict the member's ability to rent absent an actual vote of the members. Even then, for condominiums, there is also the statute that prohibits creating further restrictions that could reduce the number of rentals an owner can make absent a member vote, and the members that vote against the change are not required to follow it. §718.110(13).

The new rules are written to appear to be saying renting is something only rarely done or allowed and the term personal use refers only to a member's use of the room or a member's allowing family or friends to use the rooms. But if you read the new rules several times, you may conclude something different: DVC is not really creating new rules. It has just rewritten the existing rules with a much more harsh tone, and likely: (a) its position if challenged will actually be that the new rules can be construed to be the same as the old rules; (b) it will principally pursue the professional renters if they do not cease their activities because they are violating the old rules and have no real defense; and (c) the new rules may themselves cause many members doing some fairly frequent rentals, who perceive that the term personal use does not include rentals, will actually stop renting, or at least decrease their amount of renting, under the belief that new rules require that.

The applicable June 2025 rental rules are, per sentence:

1. "You agree that any reservations made under your membership are solely for personal use and not for commercial purposes, as required by governing documents for each DVC Resort,
including but not limited to the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement."

That sentence actually says nothing more than the actual rule in the declarations. The sentence does not declare personal use excludes rentals or that commercial purposes include anything more than what is actually provided in the declarations.

2. "DVCM reserves the right to interpret personal use and determine if reservations are booked for personal or commercial purposes in its sole discretion."

That is a big "so what" sentence. DVCM has the power to finally determine the issue of personal use and commercial purposes for the Riviera and after resorts, but the sentence does not say it actually has that power for all pre-Riviera resorts. Nothing disallows DVCM from weighing in on the issue as to those resorts but, under those POS’s, only the association can finally determine the issue and the association must apply a reasonableness standard. That rule is not really changed because the sentence does not say DVCM is the entity that finally determines the issue.

C. "Personal use may include enjoying the benefits of a DVC Membership with family or friends or allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion."

That sentence is literally true as to what personal use "may include," but the sentence does not actually exclude rentals or anything else not stated in the sentence that could be personal use.

D. "Additionally, personal use means that the member does not regularly or frequently rent/sell reservations booked using their membership."

Noteworthy is that the sentence appears to be conceding that the term "personal use" expressly includes a member's ability to rent. ”Regularly” or “frequently” are vague terms that could require, as the rules in the declarations of most DVC Resorts, a large number of rentals before a violation of what is stated in the sentence.

If any real legal dispute arises, my sense is DVD/DVC will not take the position that its new rules are more restrictive than those stated in the declarations of the DVC Resorts. To do so would raise the issue that such new rules cannot apply because they were never voted on by the members, and that is an issue DVD/DVC would likely lose in a lawsuit. Its position will instead be that its June 2025 Rules really do not conflict with the DVC Resorts' declarations’ definitions of personal use and commercial purpose. Moreover, it will likely focus on the professional-type renters who are doing a lot of rentals because those can be shown to be acting improperly under the original personal use and commercial purpose definitions.
 















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