DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[lowlight]

People like to discuss hypotheticals and analyse different meanings of the contract that’s all. It’s what most of the DVC boards are dedicated to and believe it or not people enjoy engaging in constructive debate!

We are all adults and fully aware that our conclusions have absolutely no influence over what Disney decides to do. No need to point that out.

You don’t have to be on one side or the other to take a position on the language used in the contract…

Remind me though, are you pro or anti renting?

We (including you, as you were a frequent poster) have hashed this out though, for months. In many previous threads. Both sides disagree with one another on how the contract is meant to be interpreted. There is almost no middle ground to be had here, there are mostly hardliners with a sprinkling of people on the very inside edges of each side. Debate is healthy, but it always devolves the same weird way where the renting side tries to get the non-renting side to agree to some arbitrary number as acceptable. "I don't think renting frequently is ok." "Ok, but what is frequently? I have 500 points, can I rent out 250 points a year?" "No, that's frequently." "Ok, what if it's a percentage of my overall points divided by three years multiplied by my 14 cousins I share my contract with?" "No, that still seems frequently." "Well it doesn't matter, DVC gets to decide what renting is anyhow." And that's the truth- and they don't want to say a number, so we will never know. There's been some really bad takes here, on both sides, even some by lawyers. I fully encourage everyone to use their contract the way they see the contract spelled out. If you think DVC meant that it's ok to rent 250 points out of 500 a year, keep doing it. It's one way to test for sure if you were right, and also to find out if DVC is actually doing anything.

 

[muppets3d]

I wonder if DVC is able to establish a proprietary rental program - in other words that you must rent your points through DVC. If so, the expansion to things like AP would make sense to provide more off-ramps for the rental points.

Particularly if they made it easy to use, and low margin it would increase their profits, shut down commercial renting, and make members happy quite easily...

Imagine, guaranteed $18/pp just by calling into disney and selling your points back for the year...

they then could rent them out for $20 OTUP but also cash rates, etc. and get a nice markup...

However, I don't think that works when they aren't able to fill their own inventory as is... Just wondering if they could "force" something like that on the ownership...

One of the downsides of super long threads like this is things come and go. This particular topic was discussed like 30 pages ago, lol! I don't remember where the hivemind landed on that idea though.

 

[Mouseforward]

One of the downsides of super long threads like this is things come and go. This particular topic was discussed like 30 pages ago, lol! I don't remember where the hivemind landed on that idea though.

I think knowing Disney, they would offer 12 a point. Kinda like trading it for a cruise.

 

[cruisehopeful]

Since this thread is so long and I've skimmed over pages, this might have been discussed already and I missed it. Since there are corporations buying, stripping, renting and selling contracts and supposedly it's a handful of people doing this with many memberships, can't Disney just stop those particular individuals from using their products?

 

[mkatsy]

They could also get rid of some of the reasons people need to rent out their points for, making it easier to use your own points now that they tamped down the transfers allowed. Maybe allow an exception for the banking of points past the end of the banking window for a cancelled reservation (outside of 30 days) once per year. No need to rent out the reservation last minute. Or allowing the return of borrowed points once per year as the result of a cancelled reservation.

They could let you "rent" some point back to Disney themselves like others mentioned other timeshares do at a reasonable rate, maybe just a bit below the cost ($20 currently) of one time use points. So maybe between $16-18 per point. Then Disney can sell them as OTUP (maybe increase the number of OTUPs allowed to buy as well) or rent them out as part of cash reservations. They make money either way. You don't have to make reservations under random people's names and be careful not to cancel them accidentally as the person renting the points. And the end user renting the reservation wouldn't have to worry about a member cancelling the reservation out from under them or getting scammed. They would be using the points themselves as OTUP or getting the Res directly from Disney.

They could probably bake it into some sort of swap program as well (so you won't have to pay taxes on it as rental) that puts it on a special DVC debit/gift card that you can use for Disney stays, cruises, tickets, DVC direct contracts, etc. So they know they will get that money back from you anyway. Then put a limit on the percentage of points you are allowed to rent out on the private market. IF you have a need to get rid of even up to ALL your points for a year or two, then you have an easy way. And anyone else who tries to rent out privately too many points would be searching for too much profit and could be considered a possible commercial enterprise and warned, then punished if they do not comply with the rules. Everybody wins (except commercial renters)

I would love a card like that, and I’d like to be able to purchase lightening lanes and meal plans with it to use during resort stays. That way when I have guests staying with me I can painlessly take care of the meals ahead of time and there isn’t that weird battle over the check because they think their room cost me $800

 

[Sandisw]

I wonder if DVC is able to establish a proprietary rental program - in other words that you must rent your points through DVC. If so, the expansion to things like AP would make sense to provide more off-ramps for the rental points.

Particularly if they made it easy to use, and low margin it would increase their profits, shut down commercial renting, and make members happy quite easily...

Imagine, guaranteed $18/pp just by calling into disney and selling your points back for the year...

they then could rent them out for $20 OTUP but also cash rates, etc. and get a nice markup...

However, I don't think that works when they aren't able to fill their own inventory as is... Just wondering if they could "force" something like that on the ownership...

One unknown is whether there is some limitation that they can not because it would put it in direct competition with Disney.

When you are trading for other Disney products, Disney still keeps the money.

I don’t think the could force when the terms of a rental are up to the owner

 

[Sandisw]

Since this thread is so long and I've skimmed over pages, this might have been discussed already and I missed it. Since there are corporations buying, stripping, renting and selling contracts and supposedly it's a handful of people doing this with many memberships, can't Disney just stop those particular individuals from using their products?

One move made is stopping owners from transferring more than once ti memberships that they own.

There is also language…I’ll try to find thst actually says corporations or LLCs, etc can only book reservations for their boards and employees…paraphrasing here from memory.

It’s either CFW or RIV that actually now mentions this for those resorts.

Thst is why some of this is because DVC decided, for whatever reason, not to enforce the clause to the degree they can.

There are a lot of things they could implement without changing anything and it would catch the large point owners renting a lot of reservations!

 

[Sandisw]

We (including you, as you were a frequent poster) have hashed this out though, for months. In many previous threads. Both sides disagree with one another on how the contract is meant to be interpreted. There is almost no middle ground to be had here, there are mostly hardliners with a sprinkling of people on the very inside edges of each side. Debate is healthy, but it always devolves the same weird way where the renting side tries to get the non-renting side to agree to some arbitrary number as acceptable. "I don't think renting frequently is ok." "Ok, but what is frequently? I have 500 points, can I rent out 250 points a year?" "No, that's frequently." "Ok, what if it's a percentage of my overall points divided by three years multiplied by my 14 cousins I share my contract with?" "No, that still seems frequently." "Well it doesn't matter, DVC gets to decide what renting is anyhow." And that's the truth- and they don't want to say a number, so we will never know. There's been some really bad takes here, on both sides, even some by lawyers. I fully encourage everyone to use their contract the way they see the contract spelled out. If you think DVC meant that it's ok to rent 250 points out of 500 a year, keep doing it. It's one way to test for sure if you were right, and also to find out if DVC is actually doing anything.

That is actually what DVC advised too. She took me through ever part of the contract that discussed rentals…about an hour on the phone!

And she said follow what it said! Basically, each owner can evaluate their own situations!

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

That is actually what DVC advised too. She took me through ever part of the contract that discussed rentals…about an hour on the phone!

And she said follow what it said! Basically, each owner can evaluate their own situations!

Who is “DVC” here? Someone in member admin or member services or a member of the legal/leadership team?

 

[Mouseforward]

That is actually what DVC advised too. She took me through ever part of the contract that discussed rentals…about an hour on the phone!

And she said follow what it said! Basically, each owner can evaluate their own situations!

I got the same impression. I really think anyone who owns points and actually goes to Disney frequently using their own points for the majority of the points has nothing to worry about.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Which brings up a point for me. Point envy. I envy all of you that even have points to rent. 17 years and I've never even considered it. I wish I had 200 more for myself, truth be known, and I'm not exactly 'points poor' by most people's standards now. Apparently, I'm 'points poor' in this crowd though.

 

[Sandisw]

Who is “DVC” here? Someone in member admin or member services or a member of the legal/leadership team?

I think it was last year or the year before? Maybe around the time of the trust was announced? I posted about it at the time...

I ended up escalating it up the chain to talk to someone who was part of a leadership team....started my questions with just a normal MS person and went from there because I wanted someone at a level who wasn't just a low CM tasked to answer owners emails.

It took me several weeks..maybe even longer. to get a person who I felt confident was high enough up to answer my questions! Emails went back and forth a bit before the call. I did have her walk me through the RIV contract.

In January, I sent emails to DVC about stopping in to view a copy of the policy that the VGF POS says is available for review.....it took me months to finally get a phone call back. I was advised that there was a specific department in legal? or contract enforcement? that I needed to send my request in writing to....they said it could take awhile to have my request dealt with....and that is what I did....I think that was April?

If I don't get what I am looking for by July, I will be sending a letter directly to members of the board, certified!!

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I think it was last year or the year before? Maybe around the time of the trust was announced? I posted about it at the time...

I ended up escalating it up the chain to talk to someone who was part of a leadership team....started my questions with just a normal MS person and went from there because I wanted someone at a level who wasn't just a low CM tasked to answer owners emails.

It took me several weeks..maybe even longer. to get a person who I felt confident was high enough up to answer my questions! Emails went back and forth a bit before the call. I did have her walk me through the RIV contract.

Makes total sense. I go through cycles of more and less active here depending on work and travel schedule and totally missed it.
For the record, I was not doubting you and assumed you were wise enough to be referring to someone more senior than internet chat member services.

In January, I sent emails to DVC about stopping in to view a copy of the policy that the VGF POS says is available for review.....it took me months to finally get a phone call back. I was advised that there was a specific department in legal? or contract enforcement? that I needed to send my request in writing to....they said it could take awhile to have my request dealt with....and that is what I did....I think that was April? If I don't get what I am looking for by July, I will be sending a letter directly to members of the board, certified!!

I DO remember that— we are lucky to have you doggedly digging for answers. I own more points at VGF than anywhere else so I’m very curious to see what you find!

 

[Sandisw]

Makes total sense. I go through cycles of more and less active here depending on work and travel schedule and totally missed it.
For the record, I was not doubting you and assumed you were wise enough to be referring to someone more senior than internet chat member services.

I DO remember that— we are lucky to have you doggedly digging for answers. I own more points at VGF than anywhere else so I’m very curious to see what you find!

I absolutely didn’t take it as you doubting me! I take nothing personal on these boards!!!

What’s funny is I went in saying we need to have clarity and how can you penalize an owner when we don’t know if we are doing something wrong!

It’s why it supports the notion for me that owners just have to make decisions in line with what they believe is appropriate until they are told differently.

And, if I had to speculate, I think it’s because they figure the vast majority will make choices that they won’t have a problem with.

 

[lowlight]

In January, I sent emails to DVC about stopping in to view a copy of the policy that the VGF POS says is available for review.....it took me months to finally get a phone call back. I was advised that there was a specific department in legal? or contract enforcement? that I needed to send my request in writing to....they said it could take awhile to have my request dealt with....and that is what I did....I think that was April?

Which document is this? The property management agreement?

 

[LRdismom]

I have been booking 1BRs mostly, so I personally have been insulated from a lot of the effects from commercial renters, but I can definitely understand the frustration of the ownership base. By spec renting specific sets of rooms, commercial renters have increased competition for those rooms more than is natural.

Motivated by the highest $ per point rooms that they can get, they can use various methods to secure as many of the low cost studios as possible. This may include bots to book a split second before other owners, multiple people logged in all at once, or securing reservations whenever they are available and walking them forward. They are not looking for a single date, they are looking for anything they can rent for a high price and are snapping up these specific rooms at a higher rate than normal members booking with a specific date in mind or looking for more varied accommodations would be.

Either way, once those reservations are made and posted up for rent (and there have been a lot of these posted for rent in recent years) these commercial renters have effectively increased the competition for these rooms beyond the total number of members for that resort. The total number of people looking at staying in these rooms is now the all of the interested owners at that resort PLUS the number of interested renters looking that are not owners. Competition is increased and that room is now looked at by possibly thousands of more people than it would normally be.

All of this concludes with what we have now, which makes DVC start to fail a very important and very simple eye test. If it looks like renters who are not owners are able to stay in these hard to get rooms easier than the actual average owner at that very resort, then something has gone wrong. This is what they need to address in some way if they want to continue selling more and more DVC contracts instead of hotel rooms. Why buy a contract if it looks like via renting, it is easier to get the room you want.

They can crack down on commercial renters, change how booking reservations or walking works, adjust studio vs 1br point charts, or something else completely. But it is a very bad look for a very expensive product. And it may be hurting their hotel room side of the business as well.

This was stated so perfectly.

 

[Sandisw]

Which document is this? The property management agreement?

The commercial use policy document. The VGF…and possibly other resorts….POS says that the board has adopted a policy and it’s kept on record at DVC…something like that…and owners can request to review it.

ETA: I already have the property management agreement somewhere!!! I requested that years ago!!

 

[JackosinDIS]

The commercial use policy document. The VGF…and possibly other resorts….POS says that the board has adopted a policy and it’s kept on record at DVC…something like that…and owners can request to review it.

ETA: I already have the property management agreement somewhere!!! I requested that years ago!!

Definitely other resorts that have this in the POS. As you know, I asked for the BCV policy (probably over a year ago now), but nothing ever received - I haven’t chased though.

I imagine a little team in the legal department somewhere cursing whenever another email from Sandi comes through…

 

[tx911]

Definitely other resorts that have this in the POS. As you know, I asked for the BCV policy (probably over a year ago now), but nothing ever received - I haven’t chased though.

I imagine a little team in the legal department somewhere cursing whenever another email from Sandi comes through…

I can imagine them saying "Sandi!" the way Seinfeld says "Newman!"

 

[DL1WDW2]

If you really want to stump them Ask how the Florida 2025 Legislative Sessions will be important to know about for DVC .
Might not mean a change this year but not to be ignored .
I imagine WDW /DVC has this for consideration that is more important than rental compliance / package.


Did anybody attend Meetings yesterday?
Was any of this on record ?
Hope something was resolved .