DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

[mkatsy]

I agree with you in principle, but where the rubber hits the road is if you limit it at say 400 points, some people will set up a few different entities that each have 350-399 points— Yes, there are a few giant entities, but there are dozens of people renting 1000-10,000 points a year in this manner who would be incentivized to find some shell owners if there are no rules below a certain threshold.

Honestly, given current technology they could probably scrape the major listing sites and social media pages and actually determine what people are trying to rent for with very limited human effort, that would be the most accurate—but I also think they could say that any rooms less than say 25 points per night cannot be spec rented, it would nip the problem in the bud if you can only change names on a confirmed reservation for the less profitable categories. By zeroing in on the area there is clear abuse, they could limit high profit rentals. Nobody is making $30/night renting 1Bed at most (all?) resorts.

I would be ok side, but the issue with this approach is that it’s very labor intensive for Disney.

I still think their primary concern is not having cheap studios undercutting bookings at deluxe and moderate resorts. So stopping all spec renting and especially spec renting of low point rooms is cleanest with minimal effort.

That’s a fabulous idea … you don’t have to protect everything, just protect the “cream”, let them spin their wheels with the rest of the inventory they’ll get tired and give up.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

That’s a fabulous idea … you don’t have to protect everything, just protect the “cream”, let them spin their wheels with the rest of the inventory they’ll get tired and give up.

If you aren’t renting to maximize profit, you’ll have no trouble making enough to cover your dues AND buy-in (well, anywhere but CFW, lol) buy booking on demand from less profitable rooms. Would flush out most of the owners who bought with bad intentions (or developed them after dabbling in a spec rental) but still give actual owners plenty of ability to rent points they can’t use.

 

[lowlight]

Why is there such an unnatural push to determine what is “acceptable” to people for renting? I feel like I’m talking to one of my children when they ask for 8 cookies right before bedtime when they know it’s against the rules. Ok how about 7? No. How about 6? No. Ok daddy how many can I have? None. “What would be an acceptable level of commercial renting to you?” “None”.

Are we trying to get people to make concessions and browbeat them down until they say “ok 500 points a year is ok” to make it seem to Disney like people are ok with that amount because that’s how much they rent? It’s just such a weird struggle session going on. We have no control over what Disney chooses to make the limit so why are we making people define what they will accept as a limit?

 

[muppets3d]

Why is there such an unnatural push to determine what is “acceptable” to people for renting? I feel like I’m talking to one of my children when they ask for 8 cookies right before bedtime when they know it’s against the rules. Ok how about 7? No. How about 6? No. Ok daddy how many can I have? None. “What would be an acceptable level of commercial renting to you?” “None”.

Are we trying to get people to make concessions and browbeat them down until they say “ok 500 points a year is ok” to make it seem to Disney like people are ok with that amount because that’s how much they rent? It’s just such a weird struggle session going on. We have no control over what Disney chooses to make the limit so why are we making people define what they will accept as a limit?

People on forums have an intense need to win arguments for some reason. If there's nothing to argue about, they'll pick at nits until a disagreement is found and pick it apart for 500 posts. That's really all it boils down to.

 

[JackosinDIS]

Why is there such an unnatural push to determine what is “acceptable” to people for renting? I feel like I’m talking to one of my children when they ask for 8 cookies right before bedtime when they know it’s against the rules. Ok how about 7? No. How about 6? No. Ok daddy how many can I have? None. “What would be an acceptable level of commercial renting to you?” “None”.

Are we trying to get people to make concessions and browbeat them down until they say “ok 500 points a year is ok” to make it seem to Disney like people are ok with that amount because that’s how much they rent? It’s just such a weird struggle session going on. We have no control over what Disney chooses to make the limit so why are we making people define what they will accept as a limit?

People like to discuss hypotheticals and analyse different meanings of the contract that’s all. It’s what most of the DVC boards are dedicated to and believe it or not people enjoy engaging in constructive debate!

We are all adults and fully aware that our conclusions have absolutely no influence over what Disney decides to do. No need to point that out.

You don’t have to be on one side or the other to take a position on the language used in the contract…

Remind me though, are you pro or anti renting?

 

[Tatebeck]

They could also get rid of some of the reasons people need to rent out their points for, making it easier to use your own points now that they tamped down the transfers allowed. Maybe allow an exception for the banking of points past the end of the banking window for a cancelled reservation (outside of 30 days) once per year. No need to rent out the reservation last minute. Or allowing the return of borrowed points once per year as the result of a cancelled reservation.

They could let you "rent" some point back to Disney themselves like others mentioned other timeshares do at a reasonable rate, maybe just a bit below the cost ($20 currently) of one time use points. So maybe between $16-18 per point. Then Disney can sell them as OTUP (maybe increase the number of OTUPs allowed to buy as well) or rent them out as part of cash reservations. They make money either way. You don't have to make reservations under random people's names and be careful not to cancel them accidentally as the person renting the points. And the end user renting the reservation wouldn't have to worry about a member cancelling the reservation out from under them or getting scammed. They would be using the points themselves as OTUP or getting the Res directly from Disney.

They could probably bake it into some sort of swap program as well (so you won't have to pay taxes on it as rental) that puts it on a special DVC debit/gift card that you can use for Disney stays, cruises, tickets, DVC direct contracts, etc. So they know they will get that money back from you anyway. Then put a limit on the percentage of points you are allowed to rent out on the private market. IF you have a need to get rid of even up to ALL your points for a year or two, then you have an easy way. And anyone else who tries to rent out privately too many points would be searching for too much profit and could be considered a possible commercial enterprise and warned, then punished if they do not comply with the rules. Everybody wins (except commercial renters)

 

[Chuck S]

People on forums have an intense need to win arguments for some reason. If there's nothing to argue about, they'll pick at nits until a disagreement is found and pick it apart for 500 posts. That's really all it boils down to.

I think the real problem is Disney not having a hard and fast rule about what is acceptable as a personal use rental vs. what constitutes a commercial rental. And likely only Disney will know what they consider personal or commercial. And they likely never will make a rule that defines it. The ball is totally in their court when it comes to enforcement and definition. If it is someone that constantly rents out 90% of their points or if the points are titled to an LLC that does so, than I personally would consider that a pattern of commercial renting. If it is someone like me, that rents maybe 1/3 of my points once in a blue moon, then that would be personal. I have 345 points, so I'm not a big player in this, and I've never rented a pre-existing reservation. I've rented to members and non-members. All of my rental, so far, have been studios, after the home resort priority period, and usually just one or two nights per rental.

 

[muppets3d]

I think the real problem is Disney not having a hard and fast rule about what is acceptable as a personal use rental vs. what constitutes a commercial rental. And likely only Disney will know what they consider personal or commercial. And they likely never will make a rule that defines it. The ball is totally in their court when it comes to enforcement and definition. If it is someone that constantly rents out 90% of their points or if the points are titled to an LLC that does so, than I personally would consider that a pattern of commercial renting. If it is someone like me, that rents maybe 1/3 of my points once in a blue moon, then that would be personal. I have 345 points, so I'm not a big player in this, and I've never rented a pre-existing reservation. I've rented to members and non-members. All of my rental, so far, have been studios, after the home resort priority period, and usually just one or two nights per rental.

Why would they box themselves into a definition when they don't have to?

 

[hhisc16]

Interesting to see the article from dvc rental store and dvc store about this.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I never even thought about this - the fact the owners couldn’t see what was open to book before the online system was around.

This surely has a huge role in people grabbing rooms speculatively. I know I have occasionally seen nights pop up for hard-to-get rooms and thought ‘ooo, I’ll grab those in case I can use them’. Usually I just cancel and release back in to the system, as they don’t line up with my plans. But I bet there are a huge number of people that would rent the res if it commanded a high enough price per point.

This wasn’t an issue at all in the days of having to call to check what was available.

I made this point two years ago, during an earlier debate regarding the "need" for rule changes, and how the POS from 1872 doesn't reflect the technology and booking patterns and practices of 2025 (the same goes for walking).

Now, for the 11,435th time, I'm not suggesting that Disney can or should unilaterally change the rules, nor do I want to see the end of personal use renting, but the advent of online booking, ease of online reservation modifications (lead guest name changes aside), the emergence of booking bots, and the proliferation of third party "intermediaries", has inarguably created conditions that are not adequately addressed by the original POS and likely most revisions to the POS since online booking became available.

 

[Sandisw]

I agree with you in principle, but where the rubber hits the road is if you limit it at say 400 points, some people will set up a few different entities that each have 350-399 points— Yes, there are a few giant entities, but there are dozens of people renting 1000-10,000 points a year in this manner who would be incentivized to find some shell owners if there are no rules below a certain threshold.

Honestly, given current technology they could probably scrape the major listing sites and social media pages and actually determine what people are trying to rent for with very limited human effort, that would be the most accurate—but I also think they could say that any rooms less than say 25 points per night cannot be spec rented, it would nip the problem in the bud if you can only change names on a confirmed reservation for the less profitable categories. By zeroing in on the area there is clear abuse, they could limit high profit rentals. Nobody is making $30/night renting 1Bed at most (all?) resorts.

I would be ok side, but the issue with this approach is that it’s very labor intensive for Disney.

I still think their primary concern is not having cheap studios undercutting bookings at deluxe and moderate resorts. So stopping all spec renting and especially spec renting of low point rooms is cleanest with minimal effort.

Nothing DVC does will stop those getting around the rules.

Quite frankly, I believe DVC chose to not enforce their own polices which allowed people to rent in spades. .

I got the feeling last year, the DVC team members would be looking closong the loopholes the large point owners have found and exploit.

I won’t ever be a fan of rules that define commercial enterprise based on a a particular room type or single action by an owner.

Finding an owner in violation of the commercial purpose clause based on the fact that a room has the potential to rent for more without having evidence that the owner actually does, would not match my definition of reasonable.

I also won’t be a fan if something is more or less restrictive based on where you own with the exception of RIv and beyond because that language is a bit different.

While DVC can choose to do what they want, and let owners try to fight them, there is nothing they have officially stated so far that their attempts to address this will be against anyone other than large point owners who are renting in large numbers.

 

[Sandisw]

[/QUOTE]

They could also get rid of some of the reasons people need to rent out their points for, making it easier to use your own points now that they tamped down the transfers allowed. Maybe allow an exception for the banking of points past the end of the banking window for a cancelled reservation (outside of 30 days) once per year. No need to rent out the reservation last minute. Or allowing the return of borrowed points once per year as the result of a cancelled reservation.

They could let you "rent" some point back to Disney themselves like others mentioned other timeshares do at a reasonable rate, maybe just a bit below the cost ($20 currently) of one time use points. So maybe between $16-18 per point. Then Disney can sell them as OTUP (maybe increase the number of OTUPs allowed to buy as well) or rent them out as part of cash reservations. They make money either way. You don't have to make reservations under random people's names and be careful not to cancel them accidentally as the person renting the points. And the end user renting the reservation wouldn't have to worry about a member cancelling the reservation out from under them or getting scammed. They would be using the points themselves as OTUP or getting the Res directly from Disney.

They could probably bake it into some sort of swap program as well (so you won't have to pay taxes on it as rental) that puts it on a special DVC debit/gift card that you can use for Disney stays, cruises, tickets, DVC direct contracts, etc. So they know they will get that money back from you anyway. Then put a limit on the percentage of points you are allowed to rent out on the private market. IF you have a need to get rid of even up to ALL your points for a year or two, then you have an easy way. And anyone else who tries to rent out privately too many points would be searching for too much profit and could be considered a possible commercial enterprise and warned, then punished if they do not comply with the rules. Everybody wins (except commercial renters)

Can you say MMB program? I know I have mentioned it but I think the transfer rule expansion of banked and borrowed, will also open up the ability of owners who have extra points to trade amongst themselves more readily.

Both have the potential to take rooms out of the rental market!

 

[davidhr]

Why is there such an unnatural push to determine what is “acceptable” to people for renting? I feel like I’m talking to one of my children when they ask for 8 cookies right before bedtime when they know it’s against the rules. Ok how about 7? No. How about 6? No. Ok daddy how many can I have? None. “What would be an acceptable level of commercial renting to you?” “None”.

Are we trying to get people to make concessions and browbeat them down until they say “ok 500 points a year is ok” to make it seem to Disney like people are ok with that amount because that’s how much they rent? It’s just such a weird struggle session going on. We have no control over what Disney chooses to make the limit so why are we making people define what they will accept as a limit?

To be fair, I think because this is a discussion forum where people like to… discuss a topic they like or care about?

I think (and hope) that everyone here knows we are just discussing this with the understanding that we already gave the power to DVC to decide what is commercial renting without having to tell us the details.

But I still find it entertaining to discuss it and see what others think about it.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Here to see if anyone attended the meeting or saw anyone say anything about what happened at the meeting.

 

[Sandisw]

To be fair, I think because this is a discussion forum where people like to… discuss a topic they like or care about?

I think (and hope) that everyone here knows we are just discussing this with the understanding that we already gave the power to DVC to decide what is commercial renting without having to tell us the details.

But I still find it entertaining to discuss it and see what others think about it.

Not to mention that newer owners aren’t as well versed in it all!

How many people during COVID had no idea that DVC could reduce the borrowing limit to 50%?

Or realize that the 11/7 month window can be changed? Lol

 

[Sandisw]

Anyone hear any reports from the meetings? I haven’t found a thing.

 

[Mouseforward]

Question, magical beginnings points. Are they also rented out by Disney? I think that would be a huge number of points.

 

[Sandisw]

Question, magical beginnings points. Are they also rented out by Disney? I think that would be a huge number of points.

When one trades points for MMB or things like cruise’s, DVC takes a room from inventory and offers it for cash so they can pay that division.

The 75 points I traded removed a room from inventory. DVC gets to decide what room they take.

So, every owner who trades, actually benefits DVc because they get more rooms to rent for cash, and get to keep any profit over and above what they had to pay that other division!

That is where some of the cash rooms come from…trades, Disneys own points and rooms sent under breakage rules.

It’s why I don’t believe it was a coincidence this program for using points for APs wasn’t planned as a way to move DVC rooms from the open rental market to the Disney side.

 

[Cfabar1]

I was hoping to go today but couldn't make it to my resort... I wish they would announce the schedule more in advance, but I suspect they don't want people planning their travel around the meetings...

 

[Cfabar1]

I wonder if DVC is able to establish a proprietary rental program - in other words that you must rent your points through DVC. If so, the expansion to things like AP would make sense to provide more off-ramps for the rental points.

Particularly if they made it easy to use, and low margin it would increase their profits, shut down commercial renting, and make members happy quite easily...

Imagine, guaranteed $18/pp just by calling into disney and selling your points back for the year...

they then could rent them out for $20 OTUP but also cash rates, etc. and get a nice markup...

However, I don't think that works when they aren't able to fill their own inventory as is... Just wondering if they could "force" something like that on the ownership...