DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss.

They even said that commercial renting is a small portion of all reservations
Yes..it should…but that statement alluded that what DVC sees happening right now as commercial is not a large % of overall reservations.

Some of us at the meeting had conversations after it one on one and they stuck to that same statement…
They did state it in a very calculated way though. They didn't say that it was a very small number of reservations or an insignificant number of reservations, they said as you stated that it is "small portion of all member reservations."

"All member reservations"
would include every reservation at every resort in every room category in every season. But we know commercial renters heavily target only one room type during select seasons at a select few resorts. So there could very well be a large portion of commercial reservations for studios at those affected resorts during the popular seasons, but it would still show up as a
"small portion of all reservations"
 
To add to this, if they take action against commercial renters, and it makes zero difference in studio availability, I'll still be ecstatic about it.

I think this point gets lost when people say they don’t believe it will impact success rates.

That doesn’t mean they think DVC shouldn’t go after those large point owners who, as they said, take advantage of the rules, for their own gain!
 
They did state it in a very calculated way though. They didn't say that it was a very small number of reservations or an insignificant number of reservations, they said as you stated that it is "small portion of all member reservations."

"All member reservations"
would include every reservation at every resort in every room category. But we know commercial renters heavily target only one room type during select seasons at a select few resorts. So there could very well be a large portion of commercial reservations for studios at those affected resorts during the popular seasons, but it would still show up as a
"small portion of all reservations"

Do you remember the follow up questions though that day after the statement was made?

Just adding that the summary is a great one but there were additional questions that were asked and answered by the board related to it.
 

Yes..it should…but that statement alluded that what DVC sees happening right now as commercial is not a large % of overall reservations.

Some of us at the meeting had conversations after it one on one and they stuck to that same statement…

Obviously they're not going to admit that they're seriously failing to uphold their end of the contract.
 
Or, they simply have a different view of what commercial renting is and the data supports its not widespread.

Again, it should be 0% and it is clearly not. If it was 0% or as close to it as DVC is letting on, then every Disney podcast in the world would not be sponsored by DVC rental agencies because the volume of commercial renting would not support that much cashflow.

At the end of the day, people renting points are getting into rooms that DVC members who pay dues and likely paid a substantial upfront fee are unable to get. The system was not designed for that. That is not fair.
 
I would say profit is one of the measures used to determine if something is commercial.

However, I feel that works in the occasional renters favor. Anyone who’s only occasionally rented points and pays taxes knows you would the better off going out cutting lawns as a commercial enterprise, then renting your points to make money.

Yes and no. I have seen people here struggle with page after page of inquiries on the rent/trade board, just to get $18pp on their OKW points that have $10 dues. Pages of handholding, availability requests, and deals not made. Might rather cut lawns.

When I had 18pts BW and 13 were very inconvenient for us to use, I poked into the RAT and found/booked a Mon & Tues night ~10 months (iirc) out. Waited until about 5 months out to list. It sat for a couple months. Plan B was lower to $350/nt if not sold before 2 month mark, but ended up selling 3 months out. $153 dues paid, $531 cleared. Broker tacked on another $5pp plus somewhere around $35 transaction fee. They cleared almost $120 on the 2 nights. I previously forgotten about that fee. Just looked and it sold at $45 per point, May 2024 9pt/nt.

Effort - Very Little: A couple minutes to fill a short form - name/contact info, res#, resort, price wanted. They called me to let me know the $pp was high. I confirmed yes, leave it, lol. A few months later I recv’d email, changed lead/guest names via chat, received payment via 2 electronic checks. Would you rather cut 10 lawns or take less than an hour total of your time to type a few times on a keyboard?

I don’t mean to harp what might seem like a unicorn rental. People are scoffing at $25pp rentals like it’s not reality. Tons of rentals are getting $30 to $40pp, even as high as $45pp.

For me and anyone else, there is no going back once you get your toes wet. Ease. Profit. I’ll look at the RAT and pluck the best current day(s) possible by their profit potential, with no regard if 2 days or Sept doesn’t cut it for me… I have the whole world to find a match. If I think something better’s possible, maybe even try waitlist.

The bigger point is pattern of use. This spec rental market exploded after being normalized post-covid. The main purpose of that activity is to find the highest profit margin bookings first, so you can sell them. On top of an already vibrant traditional rental market. If an owner holds many points and slamming spec rentals with yearly, how is someone going to defend it as personal use? I’m pretty sure DVC wants this junk gone yesterday. It doesn’t take much imagination to see the outsized impact that behavior brings to the system.

The thinking DVC applied in 2008 was 2 decades ago. Much has changed. Remember it is their sandbox. We discuss the finer points of the contract and individual examples, but doesn’t the entire contract matter? If one point is ambiguous, does it persist through the entire contract? And what else does the contract say?

DVC has been pushed to define how far rentals may go, and they left us to decide for ourselves after the reading the contract. Sounds to me like they want members to determine their own risk, and leave as much legal flexibility for themselves as possible. A slick way for DVC to continue holding the cards, because they have never come close to saying commercial use is allowed. It’s DVC’s sandbox. They get to run it.

Last year they said it ‘wasn’t widespread’. For all we know just another statement to protect themselves legally. What specifically was that regarding? Then try to define widespread 😂
 
I did not attend so just the ones that were posted in the articles and talked about on here. I would love more answers they gave though

When they said that, I can say there were some groans and follow ups with specific examples of what is happening and they simply said the same thing…large point owners renting a lot, etc.

I can say that I am the one quoted in the article by DVC News who was concerned about whatever decisions are made that the flexibility to rent and more importantly make changes to reservations was a key reason why I own 900 points

I used my own practice…booking more than one room at 11 months because I don’t have all my guests confirmed, and that I do a lot of modifications because of that…of course, I confirmed for all in the room that I was not a walker so my comments were not based on being practice I use.

And, that is when the stated again that they want to stop things that are an issue but not make ones that have an operational impact.

One of the meetings…and I don’t remember if it was VGF or SSR…someone mentioned that they have been renting a small amount regularly do to a change in circumstances.

And they said they recognize these things happen and they want to respect that owners have the right to rent, but they want to stop commercial renting.

What we end up seeing will be interesting but so far, but those of us who walked out of those meetings definitely walked away with the confidence that they were going after the big time players who are causing an issue.
 
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Again, it should be 0% and it is clearly not. If it was 0% or as close to it as DVC is letting on, then every Disney podcast in the world would not be sponsored by DVC rental agencies because the volume of commercial renting would not support that much cashflow.

At the end of the day, people renting points are getting into rooms that DVC members who pay dues and likely paid a substantial upfront fee are unable to get. The system was not designed for that. That is not fair.

I think we are talking two different things…rentals are not required to be 0%.

Owners renting for commercial purposes need to be 0%.

That’s a big difference.
 
We own at GF & Riv. If I rent a studio there, or anywhere else for that matter, how is this impacting anyone?
Who's to say that if I didn't rent that studio for someone that I wouldn't have used it or gifted it to a friend?

It seems that people are hung up on the inventory taken by the renter, as if some illegal alien has usurped them and taken possession of what is rightfully theirs. I don't see it that way. The points owned by the "commercial landlord" if not owned by them WOULD BE OWNED BY SOMEONE ELSE! or a multitude of someones. It isn't like they'd be shelved and unused. BOTS not withstanding, the commercial owner is just doing for one what the many would be doing individually. Really a moot point.

No you make a good point, certainly if renting were wiped from the program tomorrow somehow (which as we have had beaten into our heads over the past nearly 2000 posts, can't happen) - many studios would still be hard to book.

The number of points in the system doesn't change when commercial renting is curtailed.

The main thing is the commercial outfits book almost exclusively studios because that is what the clientele wants.

So when commercial outfits are gone (if that ever happens), more studios will be opened up for the membership, and not everyone who buys those dumped contracts from the commercial outfits will be booking studios - so theoretically, demand will equalize a bit.

That's the point.

I do agree that if you are a DVC member that isn't as interested in studios, then honestly this whole snafu isn't really concerning you. This really is a studios problem.

But since more and more DVC members (renters notwithstanding) seem to want studios, it is a growing problem.

What I see at BWV is that it is not just a studio problem.

In order to book a 2 bedroom at BWV, there must also be a connecting studio available as well as a one bedroom to connect to.
(There are a few dedicated studios and one bedrooms also.)

I booked a 2 bedroom for last week of February this year, 2025 at my 2024 11 month window. I had 2, 2 week periods to get a 2 bedroom to align with families time off. Last two weeks of January and last two weeks of February.

I was not able to get anything at the 11 month window in January and almost struck out in late February. Finally got an opening on Feb 23rd. That was 2 price jumps, 3 seasons. Good we were as flexible as we were.

So almost every time a studio is booked at BWV, it effectively erases a 2 bedroom, if that's what you need. Once you are at six adults, that's what is needed.

I did want a Boardwalk View so, I know, 20% of the resort and very slightly easier to book than Resort view. We would have taken a preferred view if we didn't get the view we wanted but it worked out this time.
 
I am talking about commercial renting on clearinghouse sites that we all know about.

Not every reservation on the rental sites are a violation.

The only ones that are would be the ones being offered by the same owners.

If a rental site has 300 confirmed reservations and each is being offered by a different owner, then those would not count….unless the owner has other rentals on their membership.

If DVC came out tomorrow and said every owner can rent one reservation per year, do you realize how many yearly rentals that is?

Let’s get back to the contract. You can rent but not to a level that deems you to be a commercial enterprise.

How they define that has to be reasonable.
 
I don’t mean to harp what might seem like a unicorn rental. People are scoffing at $25pp rentals like it’s not reality. Tons of rentals are getting $30 to $40pp, even as high as $45pp.

The issue is competition amongst large renters. There are only a limited number of rentals that will sell for 30$+ a point, and the large renters scoop them up immediately. The wannabe landlords don’t understand that not all reserved dates are worth the same amount, so when Spring break in the AK club isn’t available, they book any week they can because “spec rental”. Those weeks sit around for months until they eventually go for at or below 21$ a point. Now they are walking and using bots for these dates, and disrupting everything on the way, because who wants to rent for 21 a point when you can get 35. It’s changed the entire behavior of the rental market, both big and small. If you’re only renting one week of points every few years? You want that 35 a point, not 21.
 
What I see at BWV is that it is not just a studio problem.

In order to book a 2 bedroom at BWV, there must also be a connecting studio available as well as a one bedroom to connect to.
(There are a few dedicated studios and one bedrooms also.)

I booked a 2 bedroom for last week of February this year, 2025 at my 2024 11 month window. I had 2, 2 week periods to get a 2 bedroom to align with families time off. Last two weeks of January and last two weeks of February.

I was not able to get anything at the 11 month window in January and almost struck out in late February. Finally got an opening on Feb 23rd. That was 2 price jumps, 3 seasons. Good we were as flexible as we were.

So almost every time a studio is booked at BWV, it effectively erases a 2 bedroom, if that's what you need. Once you are at six adults, that's what is needed.

I did want a Boardwalk View so, I know, 20% of the resort and very slightly easier to book than Resort view. We would have taken a preferred view if we didn't get the view we wanted but it worked out this time.

Yes, that's true it's affecting lockoff villas as well!
 
Not every reservation on the rental sites are a violation.

The only ones that are would be the ones being offered by the same owners.

If a rental site has 300 confirmed reservations and each is being offered by a different owner, then those would not count….unless the owner has other rentals on their membership.

You can't say that with certainty, because you don't know DVC's definition of commercial.
 
The numbers are very easy. Commercial/spec renters almost exclusively book the cheapest studios, at what would be close to a 100% rate.

On average, a normal member books a studio <100% of the time. There will most certainly be a difference if large point owners who book close to 100% cheap studios exit the picture and are replaced by normal owners booking those same rooms less than 100% of the time. How big of a difference it will make we will have to wait and see.
So you're saying owners don't always look for a studio but non owners renting always do?

Not sure I'd buy that narrative.
 
You can't say that with certainty, because you don't know DVC's definition of commercial.

Yes, I can becsuse DVC has never defined one rental by an owner to be commercial.

You may believe they should, the contract says you must show a pattern of rentals that rise to the level of commercial.

One does not make a pattern. Let’s move on.
 
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