DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

Do you know whether Disney has to abide by the same first come first served system that owners do, or do they have a way of grabbing inventory before we can get to it? Do some of these rooms get taken out of the inventory that we see before we get to 11 months?

I think that no matter what they do..book with their own points or move to cash, they must follow the 11 month booking rules.

How the system works for them to grab them? No clue but if I had to speculate, it’s computerized in some way.

But the whole point was to just say that owners are not only competing against mega renters for hard to book rooms.
 
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It seems DVC goes out of their way to not appear like they are spamming the highest value/demand rooms. They don’t sell all that much of those hardest rooms and/or dates, especially when looking at all they put in cash inventory. They offer 1BRs like crazy, which returns some of the lowest $/point profits out there. Plenty of lower demand dates for point hungry 2BRs and up. Yet I’ve never seen AKV value for cash or slamming mostly studios in December at near park resorts. I know breakage makes up a good deal, but generally what DVC sells for cash comes nowhere close to the amount of quality inventory spec reservations pull and list. A rolling daily snapshot of aggregate spec rentals looks much different than cash deluxe villa inventory, whether you count it by the actual rooms or ratio.
I was actually browsing the WDW cash website and all three resort studios at VGF have availability the first week of December. No deluxe studios or one-bedrooms, but you can pash cash for all the resort studio views. I am sure some VGF owners may be annoyed by this considering how fast the studios go at this time of the year.
 
Forgive me if I’m off here (haven’t completely read this whole thread, did some skimming)-

But I did get the feeling you’re dismissing any action on spec rentals because, well, DVC can just do it themselves.

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Not at all.. I was trying to say that a motive of DVC now to be enforcing the commercial clause against mega renters who do capitalize on hard to get low cost rooms might be so they can grab those same rooms in ways they never did to shift the market to them.

It’s way too coincidental that they gave owners the right to use points for APs at the same time they want to be able to tell owners they heard them and acted.
 
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Because it seemed tangentially related to some comments in this thread, I looked up some numbers regarding DVC ownership. First, comparing number of owners per resort from a 2006 POS vs 2024. Doesn't seem to be a radical shift in raw number of owners per resort (e.g. not so much "people gobbling up small contracts and only booking studios.") At least, not in significantly different numbers than 18 years ago. Except Vero Beach, interestingly.

Beach Club and BoardWalk have interestingly lost members. Some element of current owners increasing their holdings when points become available:

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Also, average points per owner, per resort hasn't taken a massive downturn over the years. VGF is surprisingly high. I'd probably ignore that one. Perhaps there's an issue with the last of the BPK owners not being recognized in DVC's owner count from early 2024. But since VGF has some of the most expensive villas to book, it makes sense that owners would have a healthy number of points if they want to stay in larger rooms or theme park views.

Other active resorts were omitted for obvious reasons.

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If 150 points is the de facto minimum, basically this tells me that there are more people buying large contracts than there are people having only small 50-100 point add-ons. Or the people who start with small add-ons eventually buy more. And there are some owners with 500-1000 points who boost the average.

By and large, do owners prefer studios? Absolutely. But there are plenty of owners with the resources (and desire) to book One, Two and Three Bedroom villas.

Pro renters just want the smaller, cheaper rooms that they can flip for a healthy profit.

Thanks for the actual data to correct me regarding number of owners!!
 

I provide here my initial views on the new Terms and Conditions for On-Line Booking for Disney Vacation Club Resorts (hereinafter referred to as the “June 2025 rules”).

The Transfer Rule

Outside of what the June 2025 rules say in relation to rentals, most of the terms are just reiterations of rules most members know about and do not reject, except that there is one major mistake (or at least I assume it is a mistake) that does not involve the rental issue. The Vacation Points Banking Guideline section declares that already banked points cannot be transferred. In December 2024, DVC issued new rules applicable to transfers, which were approved by the government agency that controls condominiums and timeshares, which expressly declare that already banked points can now be transferred. That is a rule that today remains in the Home Resort Rules and Regulations, and there is nothing to indicate that DVC has sent the new June 2025 rules to the government agency for approval or sought reversal of any December 2024 changes to the transfer rules.

New Rental Rules

The General Terms and Conditions in the June 2025 rules appear to adopt rental rules similar to those DVD first adopted for the Cabins of Fort Wilderness in its declarations and DVC Membership Agreement. A member (apparently by using the on-line reservation system) agrees: (a) that any reservations are solely for “personal use and not for commercial purposes,” and that meaning is the one required by the governing documents of all DVC resorts; (b) personal use “may” include reserving vacation homes for friends or family on occasion, and (c) “personal use” means that a member does not regularly or frequently rent/sell reservations booked using the membership.

Whatever the drafters of the June 2025 rules believed should be the rules, it is incorrect to declare that these new rules are the same “personal use” rules contained in any of the POS’s for DVC Resorts that came into existence before Riviera and it is even doubtful for Riviera. As I have pointed out before, see e.g., www.disboards.com/threads/aggressive-anti-rental-email-response-from-ms.3919744/page-16 post #316, and www.disboards.com/threads/new-definition-of-rental-activity.3939178/page-24#post-65340745, post #474., the Declarations (usually in section 12.1) and other governing documents define the term “personal use” as the actual use of the rooms as “vacation accommodations.” The “use of the accommodations” are then limited to the “personal use of the Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees,” and thus the term “personal use” is deemed to expressly include members renting rooms to “lessees” as vacation accommodations. What is then prohibited is the actual “use” of the vacation homes for a “commercial purpose or any purposes other than personal use described herein.” Since personal use is expressly described herein to include rentals by members of rooms as vacation accommodations, the term commercial purpose in that sentence is not even referring to rentals but instead just to the actual use of the rooms, e.g., they cannot be used to conduct business operations, a use that can be engaged in only in designated “Commercial Units” as set out in the Declarations. The Declarations then provide the only rental prohibition that exists pre-Riviera by stating that a “commercial purpose” includes a “pattern of rental activity” that the “association can reasonably conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.” That section was prepared by lawyers. In the law, there are statutes and cases that refer to “commercial enterprises,” a term generally understood in the law to mean a person or organization that is actually in the business of doing something to achieve profit.

DVC itself in the mid-2,000s showed that its understanding of the personal use provisions was that many rentals were allowed by a member as long as the member was not perceived as actually being in the business of doing rentals, including by adopting a rule that declared that if a member did more than 20 reservations in a year, a presumption, which the member could defeat, would arise that the commercial enterprise rule was being violated.

Another issue is that the June 2025 rules state that “DVCM reserves the right to interpret personal use and determine if reservations are booked for personal or commercial purposes in its discretion.” The rule that actually exists for pre-CCV resorts is that the association or its Board is the determiner on the issue of whether a member has violated the commercial purpose rule using the reasonableness standard, and there is nothing in the DVC Membership Agreements applicable to DVCM that gives it the authority to make such determinations, including one that requires no level of reasonableness. The CCV Declarations and Membership Agreement are the first to ever allow DVCM to decide the issue, and the reasonableness standard existed until the creation of CFW. In fact, the DVC Membership Agreements for BLT, VGF, and Poly themselves expressly repeat that it is the association’s Board that is to make any determinations concerning violation of the commercial purpose rules, i.e., DVCM itself is precluded from making such determinations in the very document that controls what it has the power to do.

What Is Really Going on

My initial reaction was that the June 2025 rules were attempting to do something devious. The document phrases things as something a member agrees to by using the online reservation system (which did not exist before 2012) after seeing the June 2025 rules. The potential was that DVC may in the future contend that a member’s use of the online reservation system after learning of the June 2025 rules results in the acceptance by the member of the new rental rules and thus a waiver of any rental rules actually contained in the Declarations and other documents for a DVC Resort. However, it appears that may not be DVC’s intent since the document does state that if there is a conflict between the June 2025 rules and any rules contained in the POS’s of a particular resort, the terms in those POS’s will control. Moreover, if DVC's new rules are deemed in any way to lessen the number of times a member can rent under the the terms of the original declarations for a DVC resort, they can be thrown out by a court as a violation Fl. Stat §718.110 (13) which provides that rental rights provided in the original declarations for a condominium resort cannot later be changed to lessen in any way the number of times an owner can rent except via an amendment to be voted upon by the owners, and any owner that votes against the amendment will not be bound to follow the changer made.

Nevertheless, there is still some outside possibility that DVC may later contend that the June 2025 rules relating to rentals control because they state your agreement that the June 2025 rental rules are themselves what is “required by the governing documents for each DVC Resort,” i.e., a member agrees that what is stated in the June 2025 rules about rentals really has the same meaning as the rules stated in the DVC resorts’ POS’s.

An ultimate issue is what DVC intends to actually do with the June 2025 rules. Its intent may be two-fold: (a) the new rules will simply make many who are doing multiple rentals do less; and (b) DVC will attempt to stop a number of those who are actually doing a lot of rentals to make profit, including those members that are joined with others in a business-type relationship to mainly do rental. If that is what occurs few can complain. If instead DVC intends to be far more restrictive on rentals, a lawsuit may arise, and would be one that DVC could lose if it takes any position that the June 2025 rules control.

I have seen reports that those currently seeking to make reservations are being asked to confirm if it is for “personal use,” or requesting the member to state whether it is a “rental.” If all DVC is doing is asking whether a reservation is for “personal use,” then the problem is that members of most the DVC resorts can honestly answer no even if it is a rental because the actual meaning of "personal use" in the pre-Riviera DVC declarations includes member-rentals to persons who will use the rooms as vacation accommodations.

If instead, the system is asking whether the reservation is a “rental,” then the answer to that is I wonder why DVC did not start asking that question some years ago when reservations were made, so as to provide DVC needed information on rentals. What many are unaware of, including because DVC has not asked the question when one is making a reservation, is that the Home Resort Rules and Regulations, §5(3)(b), have, for a number of years, required members to inform MS whether a reservation made for someone other than the member is a rental.

Appreciate the insight as always. This is the what it says.

And, when I made a modification to my lead guest via chat, they made me answer a similar question.
 

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An ultimate issue is what DVC intends to actually do with the June 2025 rules. Its intent may be two-fold: (a) the new rules will simply make many who are doing multiple rentals do less; and (b) DVC will attempt to stop a number of those who are actually doing a lot of rentals to make profit, including those members that are joined with others in a business-type relationship to mainly do rental. If that is what occurs few can complain.

^This is what I suspect.

I doubt DVC wants to decimate the entire rental market, because that has benefits to both DVC and to owners. It does seem to enhance the ‘value’ and promote sales.

But DVC management has to keep the train from coming off the rails. That is part of their job. People are buying a ‘for personal use only’ product while blatant commercial use is happening across the internet, and the contracts state ‘not for commercial use’

The “use of the accommodations” are then limited to the “personal use of the Owners, their lessees, guests, exchangers and invitees,” and thus the term “personal use” is deemed to expressly include members renting rooms to “lessees” as vacation accommodations. What is then prohibited is the actual “use” of the vacation homes for a “commercial purpose or any purposes other than personal use described herein.” Since personal use is expressly described herein to include rentals by members of rooms as vacation accommodations, the term commercial purpose in that sentence is not even referring to rentals but instead just to the actual use of the rooms, e.g., they cannot be used to conduct business operations, a use that can be engaged in only in designated “Commercial Units” as set out in the Declarations.

Legally rentals are permitted under personal use, so it makes sense to be listed there.

While some parts of the contracts discuss running businesses inside rooms or on resort grounds, the ‘commercial use prohibited’ is mentioned in other areas as well.

Just for kicks I asked AI:

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If DVC wants to come out and say there really is no limit to how and how much we rent, fine.

Until then, I’m going to expect a reasonable interpretation of the differences between personal use and patterns of activity that more closely resemble commercial use.

I just don’t think commercial use wording was included only to prevent a member from running a meditation clinic from their room, or selling goods, or that kind of stuff.
 
DVC should’ve put that check box in MDE asking to confirm if a rental, then a contract must be in place as is necessary for all DVC rentals. Let the renters raise their hand, then owners can’t lie and say they gave away 70% of their points yearly to friends and family (who happen to be 35 unique sets of names/address in the last 4 years).

Renters already know some trust is involved in these transactions. I don’t think many would agree to lie, even if that means saving a little extra money. Some, yes. The majority? Don’t think so. It puts them in an even worse position should something go awry.
 
I was actually browsing the WDW cash website and all three resort studios at VGF have availability the first week of December. No deluxe studios or one-bedrooms, but you can pash cash for all the resort studio views. I am sure some VGF owners may be annoyed by this considering how fast the studios go at this time of the year.

I’ve owned VGF for 2 years now and noticed the deluxe villa inventory is in much higher demand than the resort inventory, plus the resort inventory is purely studios. While it is a studio, in December, it is a bit unique compared to most of the other resorts. There are 202 of those resort studios every day, and people seem to prefer the much more limited original villas.

Seems good DVC only has the categories with the strongest availability up for cash. I don’t know if they did or didn’t already sell off inventory from the original villas but if they have not, that would show restraint.
 
Interesting… we all missed this little error in the June 2025 rules!


I may resort to only making reservations by calling member services… thereby never actually agreeing to these new terms and conditions!
Naw, I spotted it - even took a screen shot & thought about posting it in the transfer rule thread rather than cluttering up this fast moving thread, but wasn’t sure if that was allowed given the desire to keep the discussion here & I figured if it wasn’t an accidental cut & paste from old doc.s someone would report they couldn’t transfer banked points soon enough.🤷‍♀️.
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I’ve read they’re asking you verbally when you call.
Is there anything stopping them from asking the renter when they check in (online or in person) whether their stay is a rental?
 
I’ve owned VGF for 2 years now and noticed the deluxe villa inventory is in much higher demand than the resort inventory, plus the resort inventory is purely studios. While it is a studio, in December, it is a bit unique compared to most of the other resorts. There are 202 of those resort studios every day, and people seem to prefer the much more limited original villas.

Seems good DVC only has the categories with the strongest availability up for cash. I don’t know if they did or didn’t already sell off inventory from the original villas but if they have not, that would show restraint.

Frankly I wasn't a huge fan of the deluxe studios at VGF, staying in a resort studio soon, we'll see. I did like the villas building overall. Each to their own!
 
I don’t think so. The game changed in stages. First came the increase in online traffic and tools. As the years went by more owners joined in, which still wasn’t too bad because more points/resorts were also added in and most of the activity remained traditional renting. Then covid came, even more people jumped into the rental game and the normalization of confirmed reservations happened.

In recent years the amount of points used to explicitly target only the highest value bookings available has exploded. That makes a huge difference. There is a high enough ratio of this activity that it puts constant pressure on availability options. The sole purpose of these points are to be used in the most profitable ways. They hold the advantage of scooping the cream as it pops up, because they have the entire public to find a use. The ease to use the entirety of points on the ‘best value’ bookings is quite different than how it works for personal use members, and even tradition renters.
In addition to all the changes and problems you discuss, I would assume most for profit enterprises are borrowing forward to rent all or most of their points. If commercial enterprises own more than a few percent of total points at a resort, that will also compound availability problems, both in the categories they book and in other categories as owners trickle down into their 2nd/3rd/4th choice rooms. It’s not a coincidence that you’re almost always buying max stripped contracts from renters.
The big question is why are people wheeling and dealing in confirmed reservations. Is that in anyway way defendable as personal use? At some point there is no way to explain it as anything other than commercial use when it’s clearly targeting profit potential and not used for much else.
Of course trying to maximize profit is a commercial use— it’s difficult to imagine any defense of spec renting that wouldn’t be totally focused on commercial incentives.
But as a counterpoint, we don’t just have a problem at boardwalk on holidays. We have a problem nearly every week. This May is a nightmare even pool view studios are gone and kids are still in school.
The reason it’s difficult every week and not just popular weeks to travel is *because* of spec renters. Ordinary owners may want to maximize points, but they are still going to travel less in certain seasons, but because they are a less desirable time to travel, the points are extremely low, and spec renters will grab them to maximize profits. These are times that used to be available more frequently at least until the 7 day mark, but now renter-owners will snag them trusting they can fill it with someone at $30/pt or more.
Ouch indeed. Although looking at the summer discounts generally, there are a good number of resorts where the cash price is getting VERY close to the per point cost as an owner!
I’d bet good money this is the real reason Disney is taking action. They don’t want to be renting rooms for the cost of your average rental, but they are having to drop rates to compete with the people advertising rental DVC units.
^This is what I suspect.

I doubt DVC wants to decimate the entire rental market, because that has benefits to both DVC and to owners. It does seem to enhance the ‘value’ and promote sales.

But DVC management has to keep the train from coming off the rails. That is part of their job. People are buying a ‘for personal use only’ product while blatant commercial use is happening across the internet, and the contracts state ‘not for commercial use’
I think the degree of the crackdown will be determined by whatever it takes to increase occupancy and reduce significant discounts. If the economy is strong they may only need to go after the major players, if it keeps weakening, people renting points to pay for points are more likely to end up in the crosshairs. I would be OK with either option so long as they end spec renting of the most profitable rooms, which would push out many of the people who only own points for the money.
Legally rentals are permitted under personal use, so it makes sense to be listed there.

While some parts of the contracts discuss running businesses inside rooms or on resort grounds, the ‘commercial use prohibited’ is mentioned in other areas as well.
If DVC wants to come out and say there really is no limit to how and how much we rent, fine.

Until then, I’m going to expect a reasonable interpretation of the differences between personal use and patterns of activity that more closely resemble commercial use.

I just don’t think commercial use wording was included only to prevent a member from running a meditation clinic from their room, or selling goods, or that kind of stuff.
Anybody who relies on legal advice suggesting that the only restriction on “commercial use” is that you can’t hang a shingle and run a business like a travel agency, nightclub, or medical clinic out of your timeshare is setting themselves up for disappointment and possible financial disaster.

Disney has been clear about this for decades.
People often reference “up to 20 reservations” but very few point out that if you went over 20, you needed to demonstrate to Disney that not a single one of your first 20 reservations was a rental, not 19 were OK, not even a few, you were locked out unless you demonstrated they were all not rentals. People should keep this in mind when deciding their risk tolerance and what they think DVC will tolerate as personal use.

Here’s an idea: what if (instead of getting mired in personal use ambiguity) Disney made you check a box at the time you run a search that it is or isn’t a rental, before you can see availability. If it is a rental, you need to upload the rental contract before booking. Still allows for the periodic rental situation and shouldn’t interfere with less toxic rentals of excess points to confirmed renters, but would prevent spec renting and provide a natural disadvantage for the rooms that are in extremely high demand?
 
I’ve owned VGF for 2 years now and noticed the deluxe villa inventory is in much higher demand than the resort inventory, plus the resort inventory is purely studios. While it is a studio, in December, it is a bit unique compared to most of the other resorts. There are 202 of those resort studios every day, and people seem to prefer the much more limited original villas.

Seems good DVC only has the categories with the strongest availability up for cash. I don’t know if they did or didn’t already sell off inventory from the original villas but if they have not, that would show restraint.

Except VGF, especially in December is a very popular time and rooms go right at 11 months, including those as I had to accept a resort studio PV to start until I was able to waitlist to get a deluxe PV and then stalked to get a deluxe RV.

So, while they didn’t take the deluxe studios, they certainly didnt stop themselves from taking popular rooms in this case during one of the busiest DVC booking times.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time to evaluate this @drusba .

It sort of appears DVC is all over the place with this. If my understanding is correct, we should have no issue checking the personal use box even if it’s a rental since it’s being used for vacation purposes which is how they defined it (in the original documents, we signed ) and not let’s say. To film a furries go to Disney for profit movie in the hotel room.😃

That Florida law is the best HOA law I have seen in years, I run an HOA and I wish we had that limit to protect homeowners from egregious changes by the board that go against their original CCR’s. I do feel Florida had protecting homeowners interest in mind much more than my state does.
 
Frankly I wasn't a huge fan of the deluxe studios at VGF, staying in a resort studio soon, we'll see. I did like the villas building overall. Each to their own!
So far we’ve done 3 stays - all in resort. Would’ve like to try deluxe but they were always gone first. I love the resort studios, so it’s all good. They did a fantastic job designing and the centralized location is convenient.

One day I’d like to stay in the original rooms. That extra rainfall shower might be worth giving up the second big real bed! :laughing:
 
I think VGF December rooms are going more because they are popular though than spec renters.... Early December is a great time to visit - low points, holiday decor in full force (especially at GF), beautiful weather... If I could that's when I would go every year for our annual trip!
 
Except VGF, especially in December is a very popular time and rooms go right at 11 months, including those as I had to accept a resort studio PV to start until I was able to waitlist to get a deluxe PV and then stalked to get a deluxe RV.

So, while they didn’t take the deluxe studios, they certainly didnt stop themselves from taking popular rooms in this case during one of the busiest DVC booking times.
That's how I was looking at it. Commercial renter, personal renter, or Disney... everyone wants the high demand seasons that requires low points, but still costs 1k+ per night rack rate so the rental looks more desirable.
 
So far we’ve done 3 stays - all in resort. Would’ve like to try deluxe but they were always gone first. I love the resort studios, so it’s all good. They did a fantastic job designing and the centralized location is convenient.

One day I’d like to stay in the original rooms. That extra rainfall shower might be worth giving up the second big real bed! :laughing:

The villas building is very nice, the real story is the 1 bedroom and larger villas however. My opinion - if you're gonna do a studio, stick to big pine key. Each to their own!
 
The villas building is very nice, the real story is the 1 bedroom and larger villas however. My opinion - if you're gonna do a studio, stick to big pine key. Each to their own!
The real benefit to VGF 1 is that it has the best laundry room in WDW - I am a studio guy since 75% of my vacations are solo. I am very into good laundry rooms and the dryers at VGF are so hot and fast that you may burn yourself on your jeans if you are not careful. BC /BW are meh as far a laundry rooms BW is too close to the pool and it is hard to get an open machine and I found BC washers leak on the floor so you have to put towels down.
 
Except VGF, especially in December is a very popular time and rooms go right at 11 months, including those as I had to accept a resort studio PV to start until I was able to waitlist to get a deluxe PV and then stalked to get a deluxe RV.

So, while they didn’t take the deluxe studios, they certainly didnt stop themselves from taking popular rooms in this case during one of the busiest DVC booking times.
My point is DVC isn’t solely targeting every BWV-S, AKV-V, RIV-S, RIV-Duo, studios in Seasons 1-3, near park studios after 7 months, Poly Tower Duos, etc. Yes, DVC has VGF resort studios for December. But I don’t see them plucking the highest $/pp in any targeted way.

DVC seems content working their breakage, selling off undeclared inventory, and seem to be booking a variety of rooms for cash from points they control via exchanges and whatnot.

If they were slamming the inventory like spec res, I’d expect to see them hoarding runD dates at BC/BW villas, using more of their points during high demand times and rooms, and noticeably avoiding the lowest demand rooms/dates. To see the ratio of those to be out of line with everything else they put up for cash. Doesn’t look that way.

Spec Reservations though? Watch an aggregate site. Some look to be regular people just selling off a trip they couldn’t take. The vast majority are those targeted highest $/pp listed above. Plus as the dates get closer you can watch them pluck whatever relatively decent availability pops up in the RAT and list it. This is vastly different from what DVC offers for cash.
 















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