DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Mouseforward]

I don't disagree that the model has plenty of moving parts, but at the end of the day you're still left with a measurably larger distribution. I'm not even suggesting the points will be traded out, I'm just saying that a mega-renter is going to do everything in their power to snag those prime dates. Full stop. First week of December, Christmas to New Years, Easter, Run Disney Weekends, etc.

If those points are owned by a hundred new owners, a significant number of those people will have travel preferences during the other 48 or so weeks every year. Heck, we own nearly 400 points at BRV, a ridiculously popular holiday resort, and we we've only done two holiday trips to WL. We LOVE the holidays and the Lodge, but wow the crowds just kill you.

I agree that is one difference as an owner and an AP holder - I have zero interest in traveling any day that’s blacked out of the sorcerer pass. The funny thing is the park itself is actually not always crowded those days. But any day schools are off the resorts are slammed.

But as a counterpoint, we don’t just have a problem at boardwalk on holidays. We have a problem nearly every week. This May is a nightmare even pool view studios are gone and kids are still in school.

 

[DougEMG]

As long as you truly believe (and can justify if DVC taps on your shoulder) that your rentals are truly personal use, then more power to you. May you never learn what makes Disney one of the most litigious companies in the history of the world.

I think I've already posted that I know that the only opinion that matters is DVCs. I've also said that if they change how they enforce the rules I will also change what I do.

I'm a Canadian, we like to follow the rules

 

[DougEMG]

Disney doesn't have to tell you and they won't.

This is their game. Not ours. They set and change the rules as they wish. And I believe they are ready and willing to take on anyone.

Totally agree.

 

[Sykes]

And I’m not saying that they’re gonna stay exclusively at boardwalk I’m saying that the point trade out is gonna be very low. So the benefits of commercial renters contracts being sold to regular owners isn’t gonna be a windfall.

I think that you personally have absolutely no idea what the trade-out is going to be because you are making gross generalizations about the way owners as a group use their points that you can't really support.

Obviously some people will trade out at 7 months but if people are buying resale with the intention of mostly booking 7 month stays, they're not going to pay more for a Boardwalk contract. They're going to buy Saratoga, Boulder Ridge, etc.

I expect a Boardwalk owner to plan to stay at Boardwalk more often than not over the lifetime of their ownership, but the behavior is still going to be massively different than that of a commercial renter. Even if only 20% of points that are newly sold from a mega-renter to individual owners are traded out, that is an absolutely massive difference in 11-month availability for the average owner.

Personally I also suspect that a new owner is much more likely to branch out and try different resorts than an established owner that has their own habits and well-established preferences, but much like you I have no real data to support that so it's really just a guess.

 

[Mouseforward]

Or make RV and PV closer. As you say, the low cost rooms are popular…which is why commercial renters target them.

But, if the concern is availability, then I think that making the views closer in cost would have a much greater impact on the satisfaction of owners when it comes to booking.

I agree that if owners, any owners , are using bots then DVC should work to address that because it is against Disneys policy.

I know it’s your favorite resort and mine as well but I feel like we have to do the point leveling between views at Riviera. I honestly think we can make all rooms at Riviera the same category.

It’s getting hard now at Riviera to book a studio at 11 months and it’s not even sold out. This also goes against all theories about rental rates and profit margins because Riviera is not a popular resort with the general public so I don’t think it’s renters booking Riviera.

 

[muppets3d]

I think that you personally have absolutely no idea what the trade-out is going to be because you are making gross generalizations about the way owners as a group use their points that you can't really support.

I expect a Boardwalk owner to plan to stay at Boardwalk more often than not over the lifetime of their ownership, but the behavior is still going to be massively different than that of a commercial renter. Even if only 20% of points that are newly sold from a mega-renter to individual owners are traded out, that is an absolutely massive difference in 11-month availability for the average owner.

Personally I also suspect that a new owner is much more likely to branch out and try different resorts than an established owner that has their own habits and well-established preferences, but much like you I have no real data to support that so it's really just a guess.

All you have to do is look at how much availability there is at Boardwalk at 7 months versus other resorts, and you can see that most Boardwalk points are spent there versus traded out to other resorts. It's not really any more complicated than that. You're making as many, if not more, generalizations as anyone else here.

I know it’s your favorite resort and mine as well but I feel like we have to do the point leveling between views at Riviera. I honestly think we can make all rooms at Riviera the same category.

It’s getting hard now at Riviera to book a studio at 11 months and it’s not even sold out. This also goes against all theories about rental rates and profit margins because Riviera is not a popular resort with the general public so I don’t think it’s renters booking Riviera.

Riviera was very popular with renters and cash stays not long ago, not sure if that's still the case however. The tiktok crowd can be very fickle. I do agree that the preferred view at Riviera is the sucker's view, LOL. It's the 7 month view. Owners snap up all the standard view rooms (increasingly, walking the tower and resort view studios), leaving the preferred views for the 7 month bookings.

 

[Mouseforward]

I think that you personally have absolutely no idea what the trade-out is going to be because you are making gross generalizations about the way owners as a group use their points that you can't really support.

I expect a Boardwalk owner to plan to stay at Boardwalk more often than not over the lifetime of their ownership, but the behavior is still going to be massively different than that of a commercial renter. Even if only 20% of points that are newly sold from a mega-renter to individual owners are traded out, that is an absolutely massive difference in 11-month availability for the average owner.

Personally I also suspect that a new owner is much more likely to branch out and try different resorts than an established owner that has their own habits and well-established preferences, but much like you I have no real data to support that so it's really just a guess.

Obviously, you’re making generalizations as well. It’s pointless on a board like this to make a statement like that when we all know that Disney doesn’t release statistics. So so I have as much right to my opinion as you do to yours. And as you indicated you have zero data to back your opinions as well.

But I can say that your math is flawed. I also think it’s about 20% difference between a commercial renter and an owner. But the difference would only be 20% if commercial renters owned 100% of the points at boardwalk

In reality at best, they probably own about 20% of the points at Boardwalk. But that will only equate to a two or 3% difference in availability.

That’s why I advocate for going after bots because in reality they’re obtaining more SV - BV rooms than they should be. My evidence for that is in animal kingdom. Renters would have to own 75% of Animal Kingdom to get as many values as they’re posting on the boards without using some computer assistance to book rooms.

 

[Mouseforward]

All you have to do is look at how much availability there is at Boardwalk at 7 months versus other resorts, and you can see that most Boardwalk points are spent there versus traded out to other resorts. It's not really any more complicated than that.



Riviera was very popular with renters and cash stays not long ago, not sure if that's still the case however. The tiktok crowd can be very fickle. I do agree that the preferred view at Riviera is the sucker's view, LOL. It's the 7 month view. Owners snap up all the standard view rooms (increasingly, walking the tower and resort view studios), leaving the preferred views for the 7 month bookings.

I think the Internet has soured on Riviera and that most of the videos I see now are saying why would you spend $600 on a tower studio? Riviera is dramatically overpriced on a cash rate. But again, I have no statistics to back that other than talking to people in the hot tub. I don’t run into too many non-DVC members. Maybe cash guests don’t use the hot tub so my data could be flawed.

 

[Sandisw]

I know it’s your favorite resort and mine as well but I feel like we have to do the point leveling between views at Riviera. I honestly think we can make all rooms at Riviera the same category.

It’s getting hard now at Riviera to book a studio at 11 months and it’s not even sold out. This also goes against all theories about rental rates and profit margins because Riviera is not a popular resort with the general public so I don’t think it’s renters booking Riviera.

I book at lot of them and you do need to go in right at 11 months if you want RV!

December is the only time I have trouble. But, I am fine with a rebalance because I actually like the PV rooms better but don’t choose because of the difference, especially when I am doing a 2 bedroom!!

If RV and PV were closer, I’d take PV all the time. Fireworks are nice but I enjoy time on the balcony and looking at the parking lot all day is not as nice as the lake!

 

[muppets3d]

I think the Internet has soured on Riviera and that most of the videos I see now are saying why would you spend $600 on a tower studio? Riviera is dramatically overpriced on a cash rate. But again, I have no statistics to back that other than talking to people in the hot tub. I don’t run into too many non-DVC members. Maybe cash guests don’t use the hot tub so my data could be flawed.

That is true I guess now that you mention it. Our first few stays at Riviera my wife and I joked about the "debutantes" as we called them in the pools and hot tubs. But this past stay there were fewer of them and more just regular families, like you'd see at most other DVC resorts. So maybe the "debutantes" have moved on to PIT? IDK. Small sample size. More study necessary.

I did see Bright Sun's video on Riviera. I do wonder how effective it was. Obviously Disney inflates the cash price of Riviera to make buying DVC seem like a no-brainer - they don't really have a choice. I have no idea how many people pay $600 a night for a tower studio though, that seems absolutely bananas to me. If that is the actual rack rate on those broom closets (speaking as someone who has stayed 8 nights in one on more than one occasion!) - Disney should be ashamed.

 

[Sandisw]

That is true I guess now that you mention it. Our first few stays at Riviera my wife and I joked about the "debutantes" as we called them in the pools and hot tubs. But this past stay there were fewer of them and more just regular families, like you'd see at most other DVC resorts. So maybe the "debutantes" have moved on to PIT? IDK. Small sample size. More study necessary.

I did see Bright Sun's video on Riviera. I do wonder how effective it was. Obviously Disney inflates the cash price of Riviera to make buying DVC seem like a no-brainer - they don't really have a choice. I have no idea how many people pay $600 a night for a tower studio though, that seems absolutely bananas to me. If that is the actual rack rate on those broom closets (speaking as someone who has stayed 8 nights in one on more than one occasion!) - Disney should be ashamed.

I can tell you it’s still very popular with cash guests.

 

[muppets3d]

I can tell you it’s still very popular with cash guests.

It's very popular with me too! I want more points there.

 

[AstroBlasters]

It could happen that the first booking is an SSR. But like I said for the first five years, it’s it’s gonna be boardwalk. Buying a resale boardwalk, is almost as bad of a financial decision as buying a resale beach club. You don’t do it to save money you do it cause you wanna stay at the resort and get that studio at 11 months.

Or 2 bedroom BW view…. or in my case… BV View Grand Villas….

 

[MartyParty]

Trying to summarize without AI... If anyone wants to utilize mine as draft, please feel free to.

DVC owners’ problem: People snagging popular rooms. Hard to book even at 11 month 8:01am.
Disney’s problem 1: People try to find DVC rental rather than book direct (at rack rate, even discounted).
Disney’s problem 2: Unhappy existing DVC owners exiting. Not enough new DVC owners.

I think Disney isn't overly concerned with DVC owners being able to book. I think Disney is concerned about money in their pocket and protecting their ability to sell direct points in the future.

Citing Mouseforward:


It would be interesting to model it out (only Disney has the data) but essentially if the commercial renters:

a) fill the need to stay at a DVC property without individual buyers needing to own points
b) do so at a cheaper price than buying direct from Disney
c) offer more flexibility with 11-month bookings at most if not all resorts
d) the renter doesn't have to tend to annual maintenance fees for an occasional trip every two or three years
e) the renter isn't locked into a contract for 40-50 some years or go through the effort to initially purchase then sale later

I do believe and hope Disney is factoring in the DVC owner's experience, but I suspect that may not be then number one priority. In my experience its usually money or the loss thereof. I suspect Disney is forecasting an undesirable outcome that commercial renters are contributing too.

Now that I think about it, why don't I just sell and instead rent my trips? Mmmhhhhh????

 

[AstroBlasters]

That is true I guess now that you mention it. Our first few stays at Riviera my wife and I joked about the "debutantes" as we called them in the pools and hot tubs. But this past stay there were fewer of them and more just regular families, like you'd see at most other DVC resorts. So maybe the "debutantes" have moved on to PIT? IDK. Small sample size. More study necessary.

I did see Bright Sun's video on Riviera. I do wonder how effective it was. Obviously Disney inflates the cash price of Riviera to make buying DVC seem like a no-brainer - they don't really have a choice. I have no idea how many people pay $600 a night for a tower studio though, that seems absolutely bananas to me. If that is the actual rack rate on those broom closets (speaking as someone who has stayed 8 nights in one on more than one occasion!) - Disney should be ashamed.

“Ashamed”… they will charge as much as they think the market will pay. If no one pays it then they will lower the price.

I think it’s ridiculous…. But I’ve also known lots of people who paid $850-$1000 for a night in a hotel room at Grand Cal….

 

[Mouseforward]

That is true I guess now that you mention it. Our first few stays at Riviera my wife and I joked about the "debutantes" as we called them in the pools and hot tubs. But this past stay there were fewer of them and more just regular families, like you'd see at most other DVC resorts. So maybe the "debutantes" have moved on to PIT? IDK. Small sample size. More study necessary.

Now I have a research project for my December trip. I’m taking my elderly parents so I will have have a lot of downtime at the resort. It might be too cold for the hot tub so I may base my study at the café.

 

[Genie+]

So, if an owner today is renting 150 of their 300 points yearly, but now trade 150 points for APs, is it really any different in terms of its impact?

It seems DVC goes out of their way to not appear like they are spamming the highest value/demand rooms. They don’t sell all that much of those hardest rooms and/or dates, especially when looking at all they put in cash inventory. They offer 1BRs like crazy, which returns some of the lowest $/point profits out there. Plenty of lower demand dates for point hungry 2BRs and up. Yet I’ve never seen AKV value for cash or slamming mostly studios in December at near park resorts. I know breakage makes up a good deal, but generally what DVC sells for cash comes nowhere close to the amount of quality inventory spec reservations pull and list. A rolling daily snapshot of aggregate spec rentals looks much different than cash deluxe villa inventory, whether you count it by the actual rooms or ratio.

 

[muppets3d]

I think Disney isn't overly concerned with DVC owners being able to book. I think Disney is concerned about money in their pocket and protecting their ability to sell direct points in the future.

Citing Mouseforward:
View attachment 971746

It would be interesting to model it out (only Disney has the data) but essentially if the commercial renters:

a) fill the need to stay at a DVC property without individual buyers needing to own points
b) do so at a cheaper price than buying direct from Disney
c) offer more flexibility with 11-month bookings at most if not all resorts
d) the renter doesn't have to tend to annual maintenance fees for an occasional trip every two or three years
e) the renter isn't locked into a contract for 40-50 some years or go through the effort to initially purchase then sale later

I do believe and hope Disney is factoring in the DVC owner's experience, but I suspect that may not be then number one priority. In my experience its usually money or the loss thereof. I suspect Disney is forecasting an undesirable outcome that commercial renters are contributing too.

Now that I think about it, why don't I just sell and instead rent my trips? Mmmhhhhh????

I ran a spreadsheet the other day, the long and the short of it is for a week in a deluxe studio at Riviera - it takes about 30 years of annual travel before renting is more expensive than buying direct. That's a very long payoff for a very large upfront expense, especially considering the resort's deed expires just a few years later. And if lots of guests are attending DVC sales presentations on rented points and giving that as a reason for declining a purchase, then I can definitely see why DVC is looking into it now. DVC rental brokers have done a very good job marketing themselves lately, perhaps too good of a job.

 

[muppets3d]

“Ashamed”… they will charge as much as they think the market will pay. If no one pays it then they will lower the price.

I think it’s ridiculous…. But I’ve also known lots of people who paid $850-$1000 for a night in a hotel room at Grand Cal….

And they are frequently lowering prices right now - offering all kinds of discounts, free dining, etc. I was just talking about the rack rate, assuming it is $600 a night - it's ridiculous.

 

[Kingkonig]

I think Disney isn't overly concerned with DVC owners being able to book. I think Disney is concerned about money in their pocket and protecting their ability to sell direct points in the future.

I do believe and hope Disney is factoring in the DVC owner's experience, but I suspect that may not be then number one priority. In my experience its usually money or the loss thereof. I suspect Disney is forecasting an undesirable outcome that commercial renters are contributing too.

I mean I think these are one and the same. Of course as a subsidiary of a large corporation their number one priority is making money, they have a fiduciary duty to their shareholders (in this case it is a single shareholder, the parent corporation). However, if current owners are having continual poor experience with the product, they will be very vocal. To borrow a YouTube/instagram term, many Disney fans (especially Disney adults, the ones who can afford to buy DVC) have a “parasocial” relationship with the company. This is a double edged sword, since Disney (alongside every intentional or unintentional target of this type of relationship) exploits it for money. But if the fanbase gets burned too badly, they become the target of ire, not unlike a relationship gone poorly.

So yes, DVD will want to ensure that they make money and keep making direct sales (either add-on or new member or both), but in order to do that they have to ensure that the product is something that members can use (and ideally enjoy using, or the benefits outweigh the cons)