DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Sandisw]

We have been doing really good staying away from arguing so let’s keep it that way.

Posts should not be seen as attacks. You can disagree with others but try to be sure it’s clear it’s your opinion.

 

[Mouseforward]

If you read my post a little more carefully, you will see it’s not about popular v unpopular rooms, it’s about the proportion of each group (spec renters v owners) that are trying to (to say nothing about the disproportionate rates of succeeding at!) getting them.

I am looking at the statement

" You seem to be having trouble understanding that certain kinds of room are much more popular with the people trying to max profit than they are with the general DVC population, and that the for profit renters have found ways to capture the vast majority of them."

Can you give an example ?

As far as the "found ways to capture the vast majority of them" if anyone is using any method other than a single human clicking at 8 AM - I agree this is a problem and would affect availability.

I don't understand the " room are much more popular with the people trying to max profit than they are with the general DVC population" part - but I could be missing detail on days as I am one to only book May / Dec weeks. Are there days that renters want that the DVC members don't - if so that would validate your argument.

 

[juliebee]

I'd be satisfied if DVD went after the top 10% of their offender list. That would likely curb the rest. If you feel you are nowhere near the top 10%, then you may not be worried.

 

[juliebee]

No apologies.

Your new tagline could be "unapologetically awesome"

 

[Sandisw]

Well IMO it should be the same for all owners.

That’s why a hard number like 20 was easy to understand and it applied to all owners. If some owners worked around that with LLC’s or used other shenanigans then THATs what should have been addressed.

IF the new rules can be 1 set for you and another set for me then we are in for a ride which can only end badly at some point.

All opinion here!

I can’t say that I do…I think there needs to be some grey with common sense guidelines.

Size of ownership matters which is why I am okay with a bit of grey.

To me, in order to even be close to being considered in it for a commerical reason vs vacations, one needs to have at least a few thousand points.

Below that, as long as they are using the majority, even half, that’s small enough to say it’s more about free vacations and not a side business.

Size of a reservation can matter too. If I rent 5 week long reservations which eat up most of my points but you rent 10 single nights and it amounts to only 10% of your points, and this happens every year, my actions are certainly more in line with being in it for commercial reasons even though I rented fewer than you.

And, this is exactly why it was written the way they did. They want owners to apply their own interpretation in hopes that most will choose to act reasonably.

Personally, if I decided to rent a few hundred of my points every year, out of my 900, I believe DVC won’t bother me.

But, I don’t rent…but I have for the past three or four years gifted that many to different family and friends to use for times I wasn’t going.

 

[Sandisw]

Random Post meant to lighten the mood:
(not rentals, all family stays)

Mine don’t fit because I currently have 16 reservations…adds up when you split stay!!!

 

[mkatsy]

They also are aware of the 2021..I think… FL law 718 that actually supported owners rights to rent and make it harder for condo associations to vastly change the rules.

So, I do think it’s important to remember that whatever DVC does, it will be based on them feeling confident it’s within the law.

It’s not been talked about much but the clause about the POS prevailing over…paraphrasing here…is there for a reason.

In case it’s of interest to anyone.
ETA: https://shuffieldlowman.com/blog/re...-hoa-rental-restrictions-in-florida-statutes/

There are two important exceptions to that law. Rental terms of less than 6 months can be restricted and they can restrict a single unit from being rented out more than three times in a year. So DVC wouldn’t fall under the protection of this law. It’s aimed at HOA’s that try and keep renters (even full year) out of their buildings.

 

[Sandisw]

There are two important exceptions to that law. Rental terms of less than 6 months can be restricted and they can restrict a single unit from being rented out more than three times in a year. So DVC wouldn’t fall under the protection of this law. It’s aimed at HOA’s that try and keep renters (even full year) out of their buildings.

Thanks for your thoughts. I was basing that on other posters with legal backgrounds who have discsssed that it could possibly come into play.

 

[mkatsy]

Thanks for your thoughts. I was basing that on other posters with legal backgrounds who have discsssed that it could possibly come into play.

There may be something else in there that is relevant, but I know people have been successfully keeping the Air BnB owners out. Those “super hosts” are as annoying as the DVC “mega renters”

 

[Sandisw]

I

There may be something else in there that is relevant, but I know people have been successfully keeping the Air BnB owners out. Those “super hosts” are as annoying as the DVC “mega renters”

Wow…I can’t imagine

 

[AstroBlasters]

So exciting!! Let me know your grand villa number at Aulani and if you liked it so I can request that one when I go in August.

We stayed in one two years ago…. it’s a fantastic setup for a multigenerational family trip. This will be my Mom’s first time ever going to Hawaii. She was a single Mom with 4 kids… so this trip is a big deal for her.

I brought my MIL and FIL two years ago…. so my wife knew she couldn’t protest having to spend a week with her MIL after that….

 

[VGCgroupie]

We stayed in one two years ago…. it’s a fantastic setup for a multigenerational family trip. This will be my Mom’s first time ever going to Hawaii. She was a single Mom with 4 kids… so this trip is a big deal for her.

I brought my MIL and FIL two years ago…. so my wife knew she couldn’t protest having to spend a week with her MIL after that….

Amazing. This is what DVC is all about

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Yes. I really don’t understand how people think removing spec resvn’s and commercial activity will make little if any difference to the ‘personal use’ membership experience.

It’s just like the DAS saga where for years people argued there was zero advantage to be had, it was impossible to be overused, no impact on wait times, no legal way to change it, etc. Round and round in circles. Meanwhile it just snowballed as more and more people joined in. Then Disney reined it back in. The move improved the experience of DAS users most in need, improved guest waits for rides, improved functionality of paid LL system. A little deja vu going on

I had this exact same epiphany earlier this week. Almost everybody who used DAS thought that thought they were an essential use case and legally entitled and that there was no possible way that them bringing their cousins and grandparents with them was causing problems with capacity and that it was against the ABA to kick people out and limit party size and it wouldn’t make any difference anyway because Disney would just sell more LL. I knew it needed to change because at least 10% of Americans had legitimate qualifying disabilities (including me!) and we were all allowed to bring 3 family members no questions asked and many people brought many more— the math did not math.
Disney went ahead and fixed DAS (which included kicking most of us with physical disabilities out) but the LLs actually work now! Those of us with physical disabilities have other (inferior but workable) options—the system is worse for some of us but much better overall.

I can give you a different example - the Amex airline lounges that Centurion/Platinum cardholders get to use.

Most cardholders were cheering after each restriction thinking the overcrowding would improve. "Bye Bye big families!". "Bye bye little children!". "Bye bye hungry/greedy arriving passengers!". YAY! But as the restrictions increased, more and more people got affected by them.

Meanwhile the fee for the Platinum card has doubled. Cardholders who want to maintain some prior benefits like family access also now have to pay for family members ($200/person) to get companion cards.

This is a very different situation but I guess the analogy kind of holds— for profit renters are the family bringing 6 kids into the lounge for one low credit card fare making the lounge less pleasant and less functional for everybody else. DVC owners staying on their own points (with or without guests) are the core people the “lounge” is designed to catered to and they are sick of not finding the chairs they need. I don’t know what airline you fly with, but I’m a Delta SkyClub member and it works great, sure I have to pay $50 per kid if my kids are with me but there’s always chairs, power outlets, and a short line at the buffet. Every change has winners and losers, stopping commercial renting (and hopefully spec renting) will make the people abusing the system losers and the people who saved up to buy 100 points to travel with their family the winners. My guess is that it won’t impact 80-90% of us here very much, but the people who rent most often will suffer and the people who can’t use their points at their home resort without a lot of effort and luck will gain.

I'm fully satisfied, and haven't really had any significant trouble booking what I want.

I'll be even more satisfied when the commercial renters are taken down.

Just because the wrong-doing hasn't had a dramatic effect on me doesn't mean I don't want it stopped.

^^this. Although part of the reason I don’t suffer is because most of my contracts were bought with the necessity of walking in mind and having to settle for higher view categories in mind— but I want all owners to have a fair shot instead of losing out to bots, even if I personally have never taken up at 5AM at the 7mo mark to try and snag a studio.

What is a short interval, once a week, once a month, once a year, once every 5 years. I have no idea. Everyone here has a different idea.

Surely nobody on this board thinks once a week or once a month isn’t a short interval to be renting?
Likewise once every 5 years is not a short interval.

People have offered their theory, but that doesn’t mean it’s the truth.

If you’re saying for, let’s say marathon weekend. Then I would say that the theory holds true.

Booking a BWV sv studio is damn hard pretty much every week of the year. And booking, of course those AK value rooms. I am sure it’s hard every single day of the year. That’s what blows a hole in the theory. If the theory was correct, it would just be on the popular renting days that we had issues.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the fact that many of those studios are currently available across various commercial rental companies and myriad FB groups? We aren’t allowed to share here, but if you spend 20 minutes investigating for yourself you can find several hundred BW studio rentals— because it’s not that hard to clear $30-40/pt on them (as demonstrated above). It’s been speculated that spec rentals (to max profit) could be booking the majority of all SV rooms at BW and counting just the rentals that haven’t been completed yet suggests it’s at least 10-20%.

But we have issues all over the year Boardwalk is hard in May. It’s hard in September. It’s very hard in December forget October November your best bet is always August but they still book right up.

Yes, because they’re being held by the for profit renters, along with a few lucky owners who are able to get in within seconds of 8AM on a day that some are stopping walks or completing bookings.

I think the real culprit is one bedrooms. I think the fact that they charge greater than two studios points at some resorts create such an an high hurdle to rent that pretty much most people are pushed into booking two Studios unless they have enough guests for a two bedroom. That, in addition to renting two studios dramatically, increases the amount of people that you can sleep.

One bedroom imbalances don’t help, but if they made them much lower, they would be attractive to spec renters too. As someone who likes 1bd, I’m in favor of a rebalance, but it won’t totally cure the problem at BW.

The test case for this was Polly before the tower, it was one of the easiest places to get a room, because despite the bungalows being a bit of a point sink they had sufficient studio inventory for the owners.

I think this is misguided. Yes, you could get a room and it helped that it was all studios, but it’s also because the point chart is very high, so less profitable to spec rent, you can only get $20-25/night if the room is over 20 points per night before you are at Disney prices.

We stayed in one two years ago…. it’s a fantastic setup for a multigenerational family trip. This will be my Mom’s first time ever going to Hawaii. She was a single Mom with 4 kids… so this trip is a big deal for her.

Now that’s what I call personal use!

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I would love it if Disney offered an $18pp rental program for members and included the ability to swap that into park tickets, hard ticket events, dining cards, Disney+ credit etc.

It would never be $18pp. Again, with the Wyndham program you are very lucky if you break even on maintenance fees. Disney’s not going to set up a program where owners can turn a profit. If they did something like this it would be like Wyndham, a place for owners who have points that would get burned anyway can turn.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

in his you tube video

Do you have a link to this? Because I had always suspected that they were in fact strip mining contracts, so I’d be curious to see what he had to say. They always seem to have a higher proportion of stripped contracts for sale versus the other major players.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

If I ever get another letter from DVC about renting points, I will be more than happy to comply with it cause at the end of the day the only opinion that matters is DVCs, not yours, not mine.

The next letter you get from DVC would likely be one that warns you that you are violating their no commercial use policy and that failure to cease could lead to sanctions. They’re not going to spell out for you exactly how many points you can rent to stay just inside the lines. The next step after that would be reservation cancellations (with you holding the bag to refund your renters) and temporary suspension of your booking privileges. Again, all assuming you are over whatever line Disney is setting here. There is just no universe in which they are going to tell people exactly where the line is as that would defeat the whole purpose of what they’re trying to do here.

 

[xdan0920]

Someone with 300 or 500 points, who rents half to cover their dues, shouldn’t be considered a commerical membership because the amount of money they are earning isn’t high enough to say they are in it to make money. It’s to get free vacations.

This will always be the place that we can’t see eye to eye. If you are regularly renting half your points, in order to cover your dues….

You are in violation. And should be stopped.

 

[hcortesis]

The question though is what is frequently and regularly. The dictionary definition of frequently is " often; many times; at short intervals."

What is a short interval, once a week, once a month, once a year, once every 5 years. I have no idea. Everyone here has a different idea.

Disney doesn't have to tell you and they won't.

This is their game. Not ours. They set and change the rules as they wish. And I believe they are ready and willing to take on anyone.

 

[Judique]

But, I just really believe that the main causes for lack of availability for those hard to get rooms is not rentals. They play a role…for sure…not to the degree others believe they do.

I agree and disagree with your post. I've owned at BWV since 2000, 25 years now.

BWV was not as popular when I bought. Friends tried to talk me out of it. OKW was the one they loved at WDW.

I did not start having trouble with getting 'exactly' what I wanted at BWV until closer to 2018. I always get something. It would be dishonest to say I've been locked out. I'm fortunate to have enough points to book all 3 categories of studios or any larger room.

I would have to pick up my nights from walkers. Deciding to walk didn't help with an October use year for Fall Frenzy. But, up until just the last two years I would get my days within at least a week of trying. Now the days aren't there for resort view. Moved to preferred views. May have moved to a one bedroom but I did a two bedroom for another reservation and sapped up too many of my BW points.

My observation is that commercial renting is playing a major role. Like others, I've been all around the web and see what's out there.

If you own at BWV you really have to be on the ball to be able to use your points at 11 months for the less expensive option.

Also, I don't see AKV's value and CL level quests as comparable. Those are like looking for a needle in a haystack. Still think CR's are making it difficult to get them. At least BW starts out with a decent inventory of what people want.

 

[muppets3d]

The contract does give owners the right to rent points, so you are 100% wrong. What is in question is how many points and how often you can rent your points.

As long as you truly believe (and can justify if DVC taps on your shoulder) that your rentals are truly personal use, then more power to you. May you never learn what makes Disney one of the most litigious companies in the history of the world.