DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

Changes in rules apply to all members including Disney. Will Disney continue to rent out their points? Assuming they do how will they legally be able to justify different treatment for individual members?

Because the contract gives DVC and DVD the right to do things we owners can not.

Some of the points they own are required to own and what they rent for cash covers trades and provided breakage income.
 
I'll offer a slight quibble with "random" being the opposite of "regular." I'd say the opposite is "irregular." And, to me, that is slightly more vague than random. I think I could argue that renting out one of your contracts every other year, at different times, to different people, at different resorts is "irregular," but I think I'd have a harder time arguing that it is "random." To me, "random" would imply no discernible pattern whatsoever, whereas "irregular" could have some degree of pattern or consistency, but if there are enough differences between rentals, you could argue that it lacks the degree of sameness to be characterized as regular. And, the me, Disney is intentionally using vague terms here because it gives them the maximum amount of discretion.

Of course, if it ever went to court, a judge might require Disney to come up with come more concrete guidance in order to enforce all of this, but, as others have mentioned, this is unlikely to end up in court. And, on the off chance that someone actually wanted to challenge this in court, one could easily see Disney settling to avoid a judge making a ruling and to continue giving them maximum discretion.
Irregularly irregular :teeth:

Lol. You have now proven that you are a lawyer :)
 
I am not a fan of the changes. I agree that walking and commercial renting by LLC's has gotten way out of hand but this is a ridiculous overreach filled with ambiguity. Disney has given themselves the ability, with no recourse, to call whatever they want and whenever they want commercial renting. I called DVC today and essentially they told me as long as we're renting to family and friends and using the majority of our points each year then we would be ok. This is infuriating to me because this particular year we have rented all our points and likely will have to do so for the next 3 years. Regardless of your political leanings, we're Canadian and our government has advised us to exercise caution travelling to the USA. Many other countries have done the same.

Our family and friends are majority Canadian as well and dont want to travel either. So of course I am going to put my points up for rent via an intermediary and rent to some unknown family or individual.
 
So you are saying gifting should be allowed but anytime money changes hands it should not be allowed? There is no plausible way for Disney to enforce that. Also, I don't agree..if someone wants to rent the points to their friend and go to the Bahamas on vacation one year that should be allowed
I'm not saying what should and should not be allowed. I am saying to follow what is in the POS in regards to renting. That is the paperwork everyone was required to sign and agree to when purchasing DVC.

It seems like Disney is trying to divine who is and who is not renting. I believe they should just ask.
 

To me selling of a reservation for any reason is not personal use, but I did not write the contract so I don't know if Disney would consider it personal use or not. My guess is they aren't worried about the member that rents out one or two reservations a year but uses the vast majority of their points for their family.

We know by FL law that renting of a timeshare is allowed and we also know that under the terms of the contract…in the POS,,, that they include leasees when discussing personal use.

So, regardless of what people use to define personal use, in the context of DVC, renting falls under personal use.

What DVC has now clarified for owners that renting frequently and regularly is not personal use.

And because all situations are different, they gave themselves the ability to set the tipping point where they want it.

I have my own opinion of who they target but no sense sharing it because I am not DVC.

DVC very well could have changed the check box language to whether this reservation they are making was a rental.

But they didn’t and I really believe it’s because the POS allows for personal use and that is what they want you attest to. You are agreeing that the reservation you are making, for whomever. is appropriate under the personal use rules.

That way, if they see that too many of your reservations are for other guests, they can flag you and evaluate whether you have enough that they feel your purpose is commercial.

And, for those in it for commercial reasons,,, LLCs and large point owners who have worked around previous limits, this will give DVC the ability to hold them accountable.
 
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Everyone who states that “IMO renting isn’t for personal use” is ignoring the fact that we are absolutely allowed to rent out points as part of our deeded real estate contracts.

Commercial is establishing a pattern that is “for profit”.

Even if you rent out a % of your points every year, it has to be with enough frequency and volume to where Disney could determine that your primary motive is profit and not personal use.
 
It seems pretty easy to me that instead of asking whether the reservation was for "personal use", they could ask if the reservation was being rented "for compensation".

From there they could decide whether it was in the original POS agreement.

And we are allowed to get compensation for renting. This has already been established. FL statute 718 explains it.

The POS is filled with language that support renting and gives stipulations for it. You don’t need their permission and you set your own terms but you must not turn the renting you are doing into what one can consider commercial use instead.

Where that line is up to DVC. If they want to allow a certain % of points under personal use, they can.

They can decide that frequent and regular looks different for a 200 point owner vs a 4000 point owner.

But what we do know now is that if you are renting, then decide if what you are doing would be seen by DVC as frequent and regular that they will say they think your purpose is commercial.
 
Everyone who states that “IMO renting isn’t for personal use” is ignoring the fact that we are absolutely allowed to rent out points as part of our deeded real estate contracts.

Commercial is establishing a pattern that is “for profit”.

Even if you rent out a % of your points every year, it has to be with enough frequency and volume to where Disney could determine that your primary motive is profit and not personal use.
They are required to allow renting in some capacity by law, right? It’s still non-personal use to me. But I’m glad we are permitted to do it now and again.
 
If you are renting to cover your dues and have a contract with the renter, you can easily share this with DVC to show you are not "profiting" from the transaction. Since you are supposed to have a contract with your renter.

Also, I think that Families with a large amount of points that are all shared through the extended family would be best served with calling DVC and setting up some kind of "frequent family members" who are using the points that the Parent own. I'm sure that DVC doesn't want to harm a relationship with a large family that has gone to Disney for 3 or 4 generations. Probably best just talk to your guide about this to avoid an issue.

Who else went to DVCforLess.com when this was announced........
 
I am not a fan of the changes.
The only thing that has definitively changed is that one must check a box to state that a reservation is for personal use.

Disney has given themselves the ability, with no recourse, to call whatever they want and whenever they want commercial renting.
This isn't new, it is just more clear. The "sole and unfettered discretion" langauge (or something like that) has been in the governing documents connected to commercial use for a very long time---and possibly dating back to the beginning.
 
Everyone who states that “IMO renting isn’t for personal use” is ignoring the fact that we are absolutely allowed to rent out points as part of our deeded real estate contracts.

Commercial is establishing a pattern that is “for profit”.

Even if you rent out a % of your points every year, it has to be with enough frequency and volume to where Disney could determine that your primary motive is profit and not personal use.

And before anyone else jumps in…I see no scenario where DVC is going to go after someone whose profit is the cost of dues.

They want the big time players who own for the sole purpose of renting and they pretty much said that.
 
Basically every other timeshare developer has no problem selling direct contracts with resale prices effectively at or near zero, and some with extremely strict renting rules. I don't think DVC is sweating this (and that is why they have things like resale restrictions now).

At some point, this does catch up with you as a business.

When you impose restrictions that devalue the product substantially, and allow maintenance fees to spiral out of control (also devalues the product), and then try to sell that product at ~10x its resale value, you can only sell it to a small fraction of potential buyers and the marketing costs become exorbitant.

Case in point - the stock market is pretty close to an all-time high but Marriott Vacation club stock hit its all-time high in 2021 (~$190) and is currently way below that (~$65). Yes, buying the inventory via ROFR is cheap, but it often takes them to pay $250+ to get people to attend a 90-120 minute high pressure sales pitch and, based on stock performance, I'm not sure that they've been meeting investor expectations.
 
They are required to allow renting in some capacity by law, right? It’s still non-personal use to me. But I’m glad we are permitted to do it now and again.

By the way the POS is written and that they include the word leadeee when defining personal use, renting is considered personal use.

So, renting some reservations with your DVC is still considered personal use in the context of your contract.

Its the level of renting that changes it from personal use to commercial.

So, while you think any rental isn’t personal use…under the POS…it is…
 
This isn't new, it is just more clear. The "sole and unfettered discretion" langauge (or something like that) has been in the governing documents connected to commercial use for a very long time---and possibly dating back to the beginning.
The sole discretion wording has only been in play since the RIV POS documents and beyond. Before that it was subject to a test of reasonableness on DVCs part.
 
And we are allowed to get compensation for renting. This has already been established. FL statute 718 explains it.

The POS is filled with language that support renting and gives stipulations for it. You don’t need their permission and you set your own terms but you must not turn the renting you are doing into what one can consider commercial use instead.

Where that line is up to DVC. If they want to allow a certain % of points under personal use, they can.

They can decide that frequent and regular looks different for a 200 point owner vs a 4000 point owner.

But what we do know now is that if you are renting, then decide if what you are doing would be seen by DVC as frequent and regular that they will say they think your purpose is commercial.


There is a distinction here. Disney has an idea of what constitutes commercial renting-whatever that may be. First they have to decide if points are being rented. They have no way of knowing that based on a name on a reservation. By attesting "personal use"--your idea of "personal use" might be different than Disney's. Again--Disney trying to figure it out on their own seems silly when they could just ask.
 
@CanadianDVC2024 , I really don't think you have anything to worry about at all. Renting because you cannot travel is nothing at all like renting for commercial purposes. It's really apples and oranges.

On a different note, can anyone let me know if my assumption is correct regarding resale companies? I'm of the assumption that when the resale company offers to buy the contract themselves, they strip the contracts and rent out the points and then resell the stripped contract. To me that is the very definition of commercial renting. Am I correct that they are doing that?
 



















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