DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Girlstar30]

You’ll have to keep imagining. As with the other (much larger) timeshare operations that already went through this… lots of people threaten lawsuits. None really follow through.

Will do. A commercial renter with the money to buy and rent all those points and lie about doing it is not just going to sit there and do nothing if theyre being shut down and have a way to argue it.

Like I said until Disney actually does something to shut it down, it means nothing to me. So far they haven't done anything for a reason. They know its going on and yet nothing. It's a step in the right direction and that's great but SOMETHING is holding them back.

 

[Sandisw]

Reading various posts / threads on various platforms. Here are some things I have seen said by others in various places

• Several people including now Sandi have confirmed you can still change the lead guest and will continue to be able to do so
• MS has told someone that they have implemented a digital tracking system to determine if a member has a certain % of reservations that are not in the owners name and then it will get manually reviewed by a person
• Members have suggested they will just leave themselves as the lead guest to avoid being flagged as a rental
• Another report of a DVC higher up confirming a tracking system has been established
• Dvc Rental Store has and has had its own limit on how often they will be the intermediary for a member as to stick with the non commercial aspect of the contract (to be honest if you are renting commercially you wouldn't use a broker because that eats profit)

That is great information!!! And it makes sense to have a tracking system.

I get that some might keep their name but that is going to make renting studios much harder for those that are capped at 4.

At least they seem to be having some common sense practices.

If I was someone who is renting, I’d be doing rentals for longer stays rather than smaller stays as well!!

 

[airjay75]

Just wanted to add a quick post. As a pretty new DVC owner, I find all of this fascinating and, unless I'm missing something, nothing but a positive development for us owners who buy points with the planned intention of using them.

Really enjoying everyone's analysis and thoughts. I happen to be a lawyer myself, but this is quite outside my specialty area (I'm a tax lawyer, and even there, I specialize in a very specific area of tax law). I'll just say, I find a lot of @Sandisw posts persuasive, bot legally and practically. Although I have no plan or intention to rent out points right now, I don't see anything here that would dissuade me from renting out points. "Frequently" and "regularly" are open to a fair amount of interpretation, and I suspect this is Disney is attempting to give themselves the ability to crack down on the incredibly abusive owners out there. Sure, some regular, rule following owners might get a little scared about renting out their points, but I just don't think that is who Disney is after, and it wouldn't scare me from renting out my points if I had a year I didn't need them. I think, as long as a I had a reasonable explanation for why I needed to rent out points that year, I wouldn't worry at all.

 

[Sandisw]

I was talking about people leaving themselves on reservations they are renting (meaning they are giving themselves access to that person’s room, etc.) I’m sure there’s a way to catch it, and it’s a terrible idea.

No question It’s a terrible idea for a renter to agree to that.

I was referring to DVC looking at the ones with an owner as a guest and deciding they have the right to cancel one.

As long as an owner is a guest, I see no way for DVC to have grounds to cancel it.

 

[Sandisw]

Just wanted to add a quick post. As a pretty new DVC owner, I find all of this fascinating and, unless I'm missing something, nothing but a positive development for us owners who buy points with the planned intention of using them.

Really enjoying everyone's analysis and thoughts. I happen to be a lawyer myself, but this is quite outside my specialty area (I'm a tax lawyer, and even there, I specialize in a very specific area of tax law). I'll just say, I find a lot of @Sandisw posts persuasive, bot legally and practically. Although I have no plan or intention to rent out points right now, I don't see anything here that would dissuade me from renting out points. "Frequently" and "regularly" are open to a fair amount of interpretation, and I suspect this is Disney is attempting to give themselves the ability to crack down on the incredibly abusive owners out there. Sure, some regular, rule following owners might get a little scared about renting out their points, but I just don't think that is who Disney is after, and it wouldn't scare me from renting out my points if I had a year I didn't need them. I think, as long as a I had a reasonable explanation for why I needed to rent out points that year, I wouldn't worry at all.

I think that is why they did this this way. It really is a great way for them to take action but balancing it against the average owner who needs or wants to rent points.

Just adding the words personal use when you check that box is giving DVC information they did not have.

So much easier for DVC to enforce when the have something that owners agree to every time they book!!!

 

[airjay75]

Like I said until Disney actually does something to shut it down, it means nothing to me. So far they haven't done anything for a reason. They know its going on and yet nothing. It's a step in the right direction and that's great but SOMETHING is holding them back.

To me, reading all of this, that is the open question. It is one thing to add language like this to the reservation system, but it is another to actually take action. Will they wait to see the effect the new language has and decide whether they need to actually take more action? Or, do they have a thoughtful plan of action to actually enforce this new language that will roll out in the coming months? It could easily be either - a "wait and see" approach or this is the first step in a larger plan. Time will tell.

 

[Brittleebee]

I am interested to see how this plays out over the coming weeks/ months.

Commercial renting has been an issue since inception of the DVC program, only grown more popular with the ease of social media. In a perfect world, this will lead to better availability down the road for regular owners. I do share the sentiment with others on the board that I will believe it when I see it as far as actually reprimanding commercial renters.

Reiterating what others have already said here: If you are renting out your points occasionally or even using a percentage to cover your dues, I doubt strongly that you will ever see the crosshairs of this T/C change fall on you. There are renters who are renting upward of 700+ easily per UY without a single trip of their own. You can guarantee that Disney is already aware of this. The tracking system mentioned has likely been in place for a looooooong time.

On the opposite hand, I would have never been a DVC member if not for renting. I rented roughly 5 reservations before I delved into ownership, mostly from the same person. DVC rentals still get bodies in the deluxe resorts, which in turn gets them into the parks to spend money. They know this. I suspect that could likely be why the oversight has occured in the past, although I obviously do not have the data to know what percentage of deluxe resort guests are there on point rentals to know if it's a sizable number or not.

 

[Girlstar30]

Well this actually did happen to friends of ours with a room being rented and then cancelled. They were never given the full story of what happened ie Disney cancelled, Owner cancelled, contract sold, dues weren't paid etc. Luckily DVC Rental Store did make it right for them.

I found it really suspicious on my VDH rental that the rental store told me that the owner said I have a new reservation number a couple of weeks after booking and to load that one into my disneyland app and get rid of the old one.

Why would this happen? Did they cancel and rebook? Made me feel uneasy and the rental store wouldnt tell me why.

I have rented multiple times from Davids with no issue before deciding to become a member, but the possibility of an issue is turning me away in general (unrelated to what's going on now)

 

[VGCgroupie]

I found it really suspicious on my VDH rental that the rental store told me that the owner said I have a new reservation number a couple of weeks after booking and to load that one into my disneyland app and get rid of the old one.

Why would this happen? Did they cancel and rebook? Made me feel uneasy and the rental store wouldnt tell me why.

I have rented multiple times from Davids with no issue before deciding to become a member, but the possibility of an issue is turning me away in general (unrelated to what's going on now)

Maybe they wanted to reallocate points and had to cancel/rebook in order to do so. Not suspicious tbh.

 

[Cfabar1]

skimming and catching up now....

so.. I strongly support anything they can do to stop commercial renting. This program is here for the enjoyment of members to book family vacations and create memories for those they love. Now, sometimes things happen and you can't go, or this year just isn't the right year. It is nice to know Disney allows us in those instances to ensure our points don't go to waste, and that we can recoup some of the costs associated with membership.

I do wonder how many posts or comments will be done limit 3 guests or limit 4 guests as a way to keep the original owner on the reservation and evade the tracking system...

I would not support eliminating the ability to modify a reservation or require the owner to stay as primary. Glad to hear that hasn't happened. I would support limiting the number of modifications for an existing reservation. I would also support saying modifications must be done by calling in - but I doubt Disney wants to deal with the operational expenses that would create even if they would ultimately be defrayed by dues.

In the end, my view is Disney is doing this because limiting the commercial renters is in their best interest. They do not want a discount program out there for people to stay on property.

 

[Sandisw]

I found it really suspicious on my VDH rental that the rental store told me that the owner said I have a new reservation number a couple of weeks after booking and to load that one into my disneyland app and get rid of the old one.

Why would this happen? Did they cancel and rebook? Made me feel uneasy and the rental store wouldnt tell me why.

I have rented multiple times from Davids with no issue before deciding to become a member, but the possibility of an issue is turning me away in general (unrelated to what's going on now)

Very possible. Renting has always come with risk…but the more this gets out, the more cautious renters will need to be.

It’s why we never rented before DVC. It was worth paying more for a cash stay because of the low risk.

 

[Brittleebee]

To me, reading all of this, that is the open question. It is one thing to add language like this to the reservation system, but it is another to actually take action. Will they wait to see the effect the new language has and decide whether they need to actually take more action? Or, do they have a thoughtful plan of action to actually enforce this new language that will roll out in the coming months? It could easily be either - a "wait and see" approach or this is the first step in a larger plan. Time will tell.

Great question. No one has the crystal ball to know for sure. I wax cynical most of the time. Usually I would say you won't see anything come from this. My knee jerk reaction is actually the opposite this time. I think they already have a plan in place - likely already a list of culprits. I do believe there will be a small group that actually feels the effects of this, but I do have hope personally that SOMETHING is planned. That's just the two cents I would be willing to bet of course; I have no proof of it.

 

[xdan0920]

I suspect due to serious potential legal issues given POS wordings etc, Disney will be sensible. They will clamp down on commercial renters and most will agree that’s good. They may stop amendments to lead names, but that may cause issues such as the lead cannot go, so wife’s sister now replacing husband on booking ( or vice versa no sexism here!). That will lead to complaints, so that will be interesting to see. I can’t see them bothering with the person who rents all their points every other year, or a third of them every year as they’ve got too much. Disney won’t want to poke the membership bear too much due to concern their very loosely defined rules will be interpreted contra proferentum on the contract.

If you are renting all your points every other year or 1/3 every year, I’d say you are more than likely a target.

I've rented I think 3 reservations in the 7 years I've been an owner. The number of points I've used has been overwhelmingly more than the number of points I rented. I have always been a supporter of the ability to rent in reasonable amounts, but lately all of the Facebook rental groups have been taken over by brokers and owners with massive number of points they exclusively rent out. I just was booted from a group that was created to support owners' right to rent their points out, but was later sold out to one of those brokers. All I said was these new rules might be better for the casual renter. At this point I wouldn't mind if every third party broker went out of business.

I’m with you. Wipe out the 3rd parties.

even using a percentage to cover your dues, I doubt strongly that you will ever see the crosshairs of this T/C change fall on you

Disagree strongly. If you are using excess points every year as rentals to offset ownership costs, that looks like an issue.

 

[Sandisw]

Great question. No one has the crystal ball to know for sure. I wax cynical most of the time. Usually I would say you won't see anything come from this. My knee jerk reaction is actually the opposite this time. I think they already have a plan in place - likely already a list of culprits. I do believe there will be a small group that actually feels the effects of this, but I do have hope personally that SOMETHING is planned. That's just the two cents I would be willing to bet of course; I have no proof of it.

I personally dont think we are going to see any direct info that things are being addressed.

We may see some indirect things that leads us to believe some high point owners are getting out…increase in resale contracts.

It as posted above that DVC Rental store has already begun to limit how often they broker a rental.

Also, a change in the number of resetting advertised might be a clue!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Still mulling that update over but noting how once again Disney decides they'll "follow the industry". What I do know right off is that there's a lot of trust in DVC monitoring this and deciding who's doing what. I don't have that faith. The blurb about if it's determined that something in this new "rule" is unlawful we still reserve the right to enforce what is determined to be ok makes me question if the lawyers feel confident but DVC wanted to do this anyway. Having the understanding checklist that buyers have signed off on over the years for rules that stated things differently may not be all that trouble free in the lawyers minds. Not everything in the documents were changeable at their discretion.

 

[Girlstar30]

Very possible. Renting has always come with risk…but the more this gets out, the more cautious renters will need to be.

It’s why we never rented before DVC. It was worth paying more for a cash stay because of the low risk.

Yes im Def starting to see it

 

[DonMacGregor]

You’ll have to keep imagining. As with the other (much larger) timeshare operations that already went through this… lots of people threaten lawsuits. None really follow through.

Plus, Disney took on the DAC abuse situation head-on and ran with it all the way to the Eleventh Circuit where they were victorious. If they were willing to take on 40+ lawsuits over their disability access program (talk about the potential for negative public reaction), they're ready for this as well.

ETA, it looks like they are not shying away from taking on the new DAS class-action suit either.

 

[Sandisw]

If you are renting all your points every other year or 1/3 every year, I’d say you are more than likely a target.

I’m with you. Wipe out the 3rd parties.

Disagree strongly. If you are using excess points every year as rentals to offset ownership costs, that looks like an issue.

We just don’t know how they will define frequent and regular. You may think those should be considered out of bounds, but will DVC?

It was left vague for this reason and won’t ever say what is and is not “frequent or regular”.

There really is no reason to prevent owners from using third parties to rent. Why?

Because they don’t need to…it sounds like they have built the system to flag when a membership has too many reservations not in the owners names.

All that matters will be the actual reservations booked and not where the renters came from.

Much easier for DVC to enforce! If they feel your pattern of reservations in the names of others is frequent and regular…by their definition… then they can hold you acccountable!

Which, honestly, appears to be a very nice balance.

 

[takemetomickey]

My two cents. This HAD to happen to keep direct sales moving. Who is going to drop $30k, $40k, $50k on a direct contract if the word is out that it is next to impossible to snag reservations outside of your home resort at peak times of year? Or even AT YOUR OWN resort if you haven’t pre planned your trip a year+ in advance? The commercial renters who snap up rooms, precluding regular DVC goers from snagging reservations for last minute or 4 month out trips, etc. were driving down the desirability of the product.

 

[Brittleebee]

I personally dont think we are going to see any direct info that things are being addressed.

We may see some indirect things that leads us to believe some high point owners are getting out…increase in resale contracts.

It as posted above that DVC Rental store has already begun to limit how often they broker a rental.

Also, a change in the number of resetting advertised might be a clue!

I don't believe we will see any direct info either, but this board is a wealth of knowledge. If there are changes, the DVC disboarders will notice the patterns and report here. As others have stated above, I do believe it will eventually get to social media when/if reservations begin to be canceled. I personally would find that to be a VERY easy way to handle the major commercial renters. Word of mouth is powerful and free, lol. My silly mind harkens back to the Salem witch trials: will there be a list of "marked" renters with cancellations?

As an aside, I am very active in the DVC rental FB groups. I like to see what's available and I have rented several times (as a resale member I'm a big renter of Riv). I have only ever rented to someone else once. I've noticed a few names come up again and again and again and AGAIN while scrolling. I can imagine those few people are not feeling great right now about the 2,000+ points in their membership arsenal. Maybe they're not worried, but I would be.